Got the .223, now for something bigger !

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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by animalpest » 18 Jul 2021, 1:52 pm

Thanks. Using "unethical gear" could certainly land you in trouble for cruelty. If you are taking all reasonable means to avoid cruelty when shooting and your methods/equipment is "usual and reasonable" then you should be covered.

If you are doing what is outside of that then look out.

When I have conducted aerial culls, I stipulate that 3 separate Go pro be used. This is the evidence of performance.
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by ZaineB » 18 Jul 2021, 2:17 pm

animalpest wrote:Thanks. Using "unethical gear" could certainly land you in trouble for cruelty. If you are taking all reasonable means to avoid cruelty when shooting and your methods/equipment is "usual and reasonable" then you should be covered.

If you are doing what is outside of that then look out.

When I have conducted aerial culls, I stipulate that 3 separate Go pro be used. This is the evidence of performance.



Some people consider 308win sufficient for this, I don't, in a hunting scenario even a 22lr could do the job up close intimate with headshot, or to the jugular/spine. But for culling I think 40cal plus is best, or some higher powered 338+ calibers, having seen evidence of peoples 30cals (including mine) being insufficient at best. I am toying with the idea of a ruger #1 in 45-70 myself or maybe 458win if I drum up the energy to keep heading north, but then again, I spend so much time on the fox shooting regime its not something I do that often so haven't weighed the costs yet.

An automatic with a 308 is fine if the follow up is done immediately and properly. but sadly I have seen as well as the uncle and the old man where many have failed this numerous times, donks, camels, roos, even pigs at different places state wide, makes us all look bad when this stuff makes airtime or the light of day. Admittedly I get most peeved with the roos being left to die slowly, this is the most common one I see and sadly its the "locals" that do it and thusly nothing gets done about it.

I like the idea of the camera, I tried to run a gopro on the hat (kept getting knocked on car roof) and one on the rifle but the 300 kept shaking the mount loose, so that was a flop.
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by bigrich » 18 Jul 2021, 2:22 pm

ZaineB wrote:
animalpest wrote:Thanks. Using "unethical gear" could certainly land you in trouble for cruelty. If you are taking all reasonable means to avoid cruelty when shooting and your methods/equipment is "usual and reasonable" then you should be covered.

If you are doing what is outside of that then look out.

When I have conducted aerial culls, I stipulate that 3 separate Go pro be used. This is the evidence of performance.



Some people consider 308win sufficient for this, I don't, in a hunting scenario even a 22lr could do the job up close intimate with headshot, or to the jugular/spine. But for culling I think 40cal plus is best, or some higher powered 338+ calibers, having seen evidence of peoples 30cals (including mine) being insufficient at best. I am toying with the idea of a ruger #1 in 45-70 myself or maybe 458win if I drum up the energy to keep heading north, but then again, I spend so much time on the fox shooting regime its not something I do that often so haven't weighed the costs yet.

An automatic with a 308 is fine if the follow up is done immediately and properly. but sadly I have seen as well as the uncle and the old man where many have failed this numerous times, donks, camels, roos, even pigs at different places state wide, makes us all look bad when this stuff makes airtime or the light of day. Admittedly I get most peeved with the roos being left to die slowly, this is the most common one I see and sadly its the "locals" that do it and thusly nothing gets done about it.

I like the idea of the camera, I tried to run a gopro on the hat (kept getting knocked on car roof) and one on the rifle but the 300 kept shaking the mount loose, so that was a flop.


what are you culling that a 308 is insufficient and a 40cal or 338 is more suitable ? not arguing , just wanting clarification on what game requires these calibers when being culled :thumbsup:
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by ZaineB » 18 Jul 2021, 2:27 pm

bigrich wrote:
ZaineB wrote:
animalpest wrote:Thanks. Using "unethical gear" could certainly land you in trouble for cruelty. If you are taking all reasonable means to avoid cruelty when shooting and your methods/equipment is "usual and reasonable" then you should be covered.

If you are doing what is outside of that then look out.

When I have conducted aerial culls, I stipulate that 3 separate Go pro be used. This is the evidence of performance.



Some people consider 308win sufficient for this, I don't, in a hunting scenario even a 22lr could do the job up close intimate with headshot, or to the jugular/spine. But for culling I think 40cal plus is best, or some higher powered 338+ calibers, having seen evidence of peoples 30cals (including mine) being insufficient at best. I am toying with the idea of a ruger #1 in 45-70 myself or maybe 458win if I drum up the energy to keep heading north, but then again, I spend so much time on the fox shooting regime its not something I do that often so haven't weighed the costs yet.

An automatic with a 308 is fine if the follow up is done immediately and properly. but sadly I have seen as well as the uncle and the old man where many have failed this numerous times, donks, camels, roos, even pigs at different places state wide, makes us all look bad when this stuff makes airtime or the light of day. Admittedly I get most peeved with the roos being left to die slowly, this is the most common one I see and sadly its the "locals" that do it and thusly nothing gets done about it.

I like the idea of the camera, I tried to run a gopro on the hat (kept getting knocked on car roof) and one on the rifle but the 300 kept shaking the mount loose, so that was a flop.


what are you culling that a 308 is insufficient and a 40cal or 338 is more suitable ? not arguing , just wanting clarification on what game requires these calibers when being culled :thumbsup:



Camels mate, when they're calm they can drop like flies in DDT, but when they are adrenalized and on the run scattering, takes a wee bit more than 30cal to put them down, injuring them is far too common with people using smaller caliber/powered rifles, larger caliber provides more hydrostatic shock and penetration and bone breaking and organ liquifying lol, in short what would have required pin point accuracy on the run over rocks and through scrub with a 6.5 to 7.62+ takes only marginal accuracy with a 40+cal with some heat and weight behind it.

I would even be skeptical of the performance of midrange stuff like 338winmag in these situations, in any case when it comes to a quick kill on a big animal like that, the bigger the better on power/bullet diameter.

can you kill them with a 308 or less, yes, would I advise it? hell no.

edit: will add for sake of discussion that calibers I have seen that I know work well first and second hand are 416 rigby, 45-70 (hot loaded in a serious gun), 458lott, 458win, 338rum, 338lap, 378 weatherby, 375H&H, 375 Ruger... cant speak for any more cos havent seen them being used.
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by animalpest » 18 Jul 2021, 2:33 pm

"Double tap" is only a requirement when aerial culling. A .308 if fine for large feral herbivores. If the shooter is trained, skilled, keeps shots reasonable ranges and hits them in the right place. Most people who shoot camels don't heart shoot, they chest shoot. You still want humanely kill them with a 458 WM if you merely aim for the middle of their chest.

Legally you can hunt with any calibre. Killing an animal is not in itself an act of cruelty. But if you only wound them with a sub-calibre or bad bullet choice then that will cause problems.

Go pro are really only good for what we use them for at close range. The footage is our insurance against any enquiries or claims.

The .308 is fine for donkeys and camels. It's the idiot behind it is what causes the problems.
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by ZaineB » 18 Jul 2021, 2:37 pm

animalpest wrote:"Double tap" is only a requirement when aerial culling. A .308 if fine for large feral herbivores. If the shooter is trained, skilled, keeps shots reasonable ranges and hits them in the right place. Most people who shoot camels don't heart shoot, they chest shoot. You still want humanely kill them with a 458 WM if you merely aim for the middle of their chest.

Legally you can hunt with any calibre. Killing an animal is not in itself an act of cruelty. But if you only wound them with a sub-calibre or bad bullet choice then that will cause problems.

Go pro are really only good for what we use them for at close range. The footage is our insurance against any enquiries or claims.

The .308 is fine for donkeys and camels. It's the idiot behind it is what causes the problems.



maybe from the air, in a lot of places I have happened upon them there isnt the luxury of follow up shots due to terrain, you really want that first shot to count, and well I have seen 270, 308, 6.5x55, 30-06 and even my 300 punch into the boiler room with no effect. Id sooner use something bigger. further east not as big of an issue, chase them out into a sandy opening, round em up and head shoot them with the 22 if ya wanted.
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by bigrich » 18 Jul 2021, 2:41 pm

animalpest wrote:"Double tap" is only a requirement when aerial culling. A .308 if fine for large feral herbivores. If the shooter is trained, skilled, keeps shots reasonable ranges and hits them in the right place. Most people who shoot camels don't heart shoot, they chest shoot. You still want humanely kill them with a 458 WM if you merely aim for the middle of their chest.

Legally you can hunt with any calibre. Killing an animal is not in itself an act of cruelty. But if you only wound them with a sub-calibre or bad bullet choice then that will cause problems.

Go pro are really only good for what we use them for at close range. The footage is our insurance against any enquiries or claims.

The .308 is fine for donkeys and camels. It's the idiot behind it is what causes the problems.


i've heard of camels being head shot with 243's with heavy for caliber projectiles and going down, no worries that old saying about bullet placement hey ;)

i understand where zaine was coming from now . if going for chest shots those larger calibers make perfect sense :thumbsup:
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by ZaineB » 18 Jul 2021, 2:51 pm

bigrich wrote:
animalpest wrote:"Double tap" is only a requirement when aerial culling. A .308 if fine for large feral herbivores. If the shooter is trained, skilled, keeps shots reasonable ranges and hits them in the right place. Most people who shoot camels don't heart shoot, they chest shoot. You still want humanely kill them with a 458 WM if you merely aim for the middle of their chest.

Legally you can hunt with any calibre. Killing an animal is not in itself an act of cruelty. But if you only wound them with a sub-calibre or bad bullet choice then that will cause problems.

Go pro are really only good for what we use them for at close range. The footage is our insurance against any enquiries or claims.

The .308 is fine for donkeys and camels. It's the idiot behind it is what causes the problems.


i've heard of camels being head shot with 243's with heavy for caliber projectiles and going down, no worries that old saying about bullet placement hey ;)

i understand where zaine was coming from now . if going for chest shots those larger calibers make perfect sense :thumbsup:



yeah mate difference between Hunting sneaking up on a single or maybe 2 camels with a well placed sneaky shot, and Culling/having to belt after them either on foot or in the car/buggy or bike then get out and rambo them as they are evading you.

I would be confident taking a camel with a bow if I was Hunting it, would I use a bow to cull them? hell no.
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by Oldbloke » 18 Jul 2021, 3:10 pm

Kurnal wrote:So the advice on here was super helpful in helping me choose my Lithgow .223, and I couldn't be happier with it.

Now I am looking for a larger calibre for bigger game hunting. Deer and pigs mainly. Researching this will be a good way to spend lockdown here in Sydney.

I would love to get another Lithgow, but I feel it will be too heavy as I will be doing multi day trips covering a lot of ground. Hope to do some guided stuff in NZ if and when we can ever travel again.

Happy to spend a few grand on the gun.

Throw some suggestions at me !

Thanks all.


Don't want to piss people off but this is the OP. Perhaps we should try and stay on topic.
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by animalpest » 18 Jul 2021, 5:16 pm

Kurnal wrote:
So the advice on here was super helpful in helping me choose my Lithgow .223, and I couldn't be happier with it. Now I am looking for a larger calibre for bigger game hunting. Deer and pigs mainly. Researching this will be a good way to spend lockdown here in Sydney."

Based on the above comments, may I suggest a 4.58 WM. That way you can chase them and shoot them in the "boiler room" as they run around.

My suggestion Kurnal, is get a .308 or similar. It will cover most anything.
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by bigrich » 18 Jul 2021, 5:32 pm

maybe we got off topic , but it's been interesting regardless :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

i actually thought we deduced a 308 with a 3-9 would be perfect a couple of pages ago ....... :lol: :lol: :lol: :drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by animalpest » 18 Jul 2021, 6:15 pm

And still is Bigrich.
I will be taking Tikka t3 in .308 with 3-9 scopes on them next week!
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by Oldbloke » 18 Jul 2021, 6:16 pm

bigrich wrote:maybe we got off topic , but it's been interesting regardless :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

i actually thought we deduced a 308 with a 3-9 would be perfect a couple of pages ago ....... :lol: :lol: :lol: :drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:


Yep, Im just suggesting. They do often wander off topic but this just seemed way off. Lol
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by bigrich » 18 Jul 2021, 6:29 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
bigrich wrote:maybe we got off topic , but it's been interesting regardless :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

i actually thought we deduced a 308 with a 3-9 would be perfect a couple of pages ago ....... :lol: :lol: :lol: :drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:


Yep, Im just suggesting. They do often wander off topic but this just seemed way off. Lol



yeah your right OB , but y'know , some of us just get to talking and waffling .......... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by Oldbloke » 18 Jul 2021, 6:37 pm

:clap: :clap: yep. :D
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by animalpest » 18 Jul 2021, 7:52 pm

Good move before I start getting into Codes of Practice, ethics and animal welfare laws :drinks:
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by Kurnal » 19 Jul 2021, 4:10 pm

If anyone is interested and back on topic, I have gone with a Tikka T3x Lite Stainless with Leupold Vx3i 4.5-14 x 40mm

Thanks for all the help (and other information) :)
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by bigrich » 19 Jul 2021, 5:02 pm

Kurnal wrote:If anyone is interested and back on topic, I have gone with a Tikka T3x Lite Stainless with Leupold Vx3i 4.5-14 x 40mm

Thanks for all the help (and other information) :)


congradulations mate :thumbsup: hope your new tikka serves you well :thumbsup:
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by ZaineB » 19 Jul 2021, 5:16 pm

@Kural, It surely will be a shooter mate, get that approval through, dial it in and enjoy
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by animalpest » 19 Jul 2021, 8:32 pm

Excellent choice
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by pilotsignal » 21 Jul 2021, 7:50 pm

Hi Guys,
I may have a bit odd question so, please be kind.
Due to limited budget, I am afraid I can't afford more than 1 rifle and I have initially decided to get 22WMR for myself. Then, reading many posts and talking to couple of friends, I started to shift my view to something bigger like 223REM or 308WIN.
As I am going to shoot predominately at the range for a year or so, I want to ask your opinion whether both 223 and 308 are good for target shooting at all?
I understand that I may be able to get some used 22 as my second rifle, but honestly I'd rather have 1 good new rifle instead of 2 cheap ones.
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by ZaineB » 21 Jul 2021, 8:12 pm

pilotsignal wrote:Hi Guys,
I may have a bit odd question so, please be kind.
Due to limited budget, I am afraid I can't afford more than 1 rifle and I have initially decided to get 22WMR for myself. Then, reading many posts and talking to couple of friends, I started to shift my view to something bigger like 223REM or 308WIN.
As I am going to shoot predominately at the range for a year or so, I want to ask your opinion whether both 223 and 308 are good for target shooting at all?
I understand that I may be able to get some used 22 as my second rifle, but honestly I'd rather have 1 good new rifle instead of 2 cheap ones.



started out talking money, so cut out the 30cal and throw it aside for later on when financials change, stick with 223, bulk ammo can be found cheap as (compared to per box) whilst this is true of 30cal its not as cheap as 22cal, 223 can be reloaded cheap as heck, especially if you arent trying to get amazing scores while you get used to shooting, bulk pills can be found, usually aimed at roo shooters but none the less theyre nice and cheap. I can reload my 223 for about 23 cents a shot and get usable accuracy, and about 39cents with nosler ballistic tips. you simply cant get 30cal this cheap.

there are a lot of good platforms to buy when buying 223, Howa, Remington, Ruger, Savage, CZ, Lithgow, Mauser, Tikka, Sauer, all hover around or below the $1k mark and all are good shooters with a few standouts being more customizable than others, namely Howa 1500 and Remington 700 etc.
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by Lsfan » 21 Jul 2021, 9:00 pm

ZaineB wrote:
pilotsignal wrote:Hi Guys,
I may have a bit odd question so, please be kind.
Due to limited budget, I am afraid I can't afford more than 1 rifle and I have initially decided to get 22WMR for myself. Then, reading many posts and talking to couple of friends, I started to shift my view to something bigger like 223REM or 308WIN.
As I am going to shoot predominately at the range for a year or so, I want to ask your opinion whether both 223 and 308 are good for target shooting at all?
I understand that I may be able to get some used 22 as my second rifle, but honestly I'd rather have 1 good new rifle instead of 2 cheap ones.



started out talking money, so cut out the 30cal and throw it aside for later on when financials change, stick with 223, bulk ammo can be found cheap as (compared to per box) whilst this is true of 30cal its not as cheap as 22cal, 223 can be reloaded cheap as heck, especially if you arent trying to get amazing scores while you get used to shooting, bulk pills can be found, usually aimed at roo shooters but none the less theyre nice and cheap. I can reload my 223 for about 23 cents a shot and get usable accuracy, and about 39cents with nosler ballistic tips. you simply cant get 30cal this cheap.

there are a lot of good platforms to buy when buying 223, Howa, Remington, Ruger, Savage, CZ, Lithgow, Mauser, Tikka, Sauer, all hover around or below the $1k mark and all are good shooters with a few standouts being more customizable than others, namely Howa 1500 and Remington 700 etc.

Geez, reloading 23 to 39 cents. That’s pretty good. I wondered how it works out. Cheapest factory ammo is around $1. Maybe I need to start reloading!
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by ZaineB » 21 Jul 2021, 9:29 pm

Lsfan wrote:
ZaineB wrote:
pilotsignal wrote:Hi Guys,
I may have a bit odd question so, please be kind.
Due to limited budget, I am afraid I can't afford more than 1 rifle and I have initially decided to get 22WMR for myself. Then, reading many posts and talking to couple of friends, I started to shift my view to something bigger like 223REM or 308WIN.
As I am going to shoot predominately at the range for a year or so, I want to ask your opinion whether both 223 and 308 are good for target shooting at all?
I understand that I may be able to get some used 22 as my second rifle, but honestly I'd rather have 1 good new rifle instead of 2 cheap ones.



started out talking money, so cut out the 30cal and throw it aside for later on when financials change, stick with 223, bulk ammo can be found cheap as (compared to per box) whilst this is true of 30cal its not as cheap as 22cal, 223 can be reloaded cheap as heck, especially if you arent trying to get amazing scores while you get used to shooting, bulk pills can be found, usually aimed at roo shooters but none the less theyre nice and cheap. I can reload my 223 for about 23 cents a shot and get usable accuracy, and about 39cents with nosler ballistic tips. you simply cant get 30cal this cheap.

there are a lot of good platforms to buy when buying 223, Howa, Remington, Ruger, Savage, CZ, Lithgow, Mauser, Tikka, Sauer, all hover around or below the $1k mark and all are good shooters with a few standouts being more customizable than others, namely Howa 1500 and Remington 700 etc.

Geez, reloading 23 to 39 cents. That’s pretty good. I wondered how it works out. Cheapest factory ammo is around $1. Maybe I need to start reloading!



if you're shooting a lot you are mad not to, especially with accuracy gains. not so long ago I could get decent factory ammo for less than 50c a shot, now even that is over 90c a shot at its cheapest on the shelf price, reloading for stupidly cheap means big outlay initially, but I have enough projies to probably see out the gun.

Stuff like outback and other OSA stuff is and always has been overpriced everywhere I have ever seen it, a lot of it is, performs pretty much identically to the cheaper stuff depending on your rifle. Most of my brass is Frontier brass that is from two 1000 round packs I got for less than 50c a shot. haven't fired all that off, kind of precious about it cos costs more than the reloads lol.

likewise my 300 is reloadable for about $1.40 for hornady sst 180gn a shot when factory ammo at its cheapest for me was $2.25 a shot for cheap soft points.

shotguns are hit n miss entirely depending on what youre reloading, target and lighter birdshot are a lot easier to just buy factory, but making your own slugs from moulds is definitely worth the time per shot dollar wise.

I think 270 costs me about $1.10 a shot to reload with hornady 130gn sst ballistic tips, when most cheap end softpoints are around $1.75 each.

over the years this adds up substantially
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by Oldbloke » 21 Jul 2021, 9:31 pm

Lsfan wrote:
Geez, reloading 23 to 39 cents. That’s pretty good. I wondered how it works out. Cheapest factory ammo is around $1. Maybe I need to start reloading!


Yes, cheaper and generally better accuracy. And you never change brands. Lol

Of the components, bullets are the dearest. So chase cheap bullets. Buy in bulk if you can.
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by ZaineB » 21 Jul 2021, 9:35 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Lsfan wrote:
Geez, reloading 23 to 39 cents. That’s pretty good. I wondered how it works out. Cheapest factory ammo is around $1. Maybe I need to start reloading!


Yes, cheaper and generally better accuracy. And you never change brands. Lol

Of the components, bullets are the dearest. So chase cheap bullets. Buy in bulk if you can.



except some magnums haha, can end up being about the same per bullet as it is in powder. but then most people only own one or two powder burners that happen to launch bullets as a side effect haha... modern cartridges are focused much more on getting the most out of a powder charge, rather than the most velocity possible lol.
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by boingk » 21 Jul 2021, 9:48 pm

Lsfan wrote:Geez, reloading 23 to 39 cents. That’s pretty good. I wondered how it works out. Cheapest factory ammo is around $1. Maybe I need to start reloading!


Yep. I don't factor in brass except as a startup cost, besides a lot of the time its handed off for free at the range.

I run bulk Sierra 55gn 'Super Roo' softpoint boat tail pill, they're about 20c each and come in boxes of 1000. I run Fiocchi small rifle primers, pretty sure they worked out at 5c each when I bought a box of 1500 in 2019. Powder is about 8c/10gn so for a 25gn load you're looking at another 20c. All up? 45c/round and better accuracy than the factory stuff.

Where it gets really interesting is the big boppers like 45-70 or the big game magnums. They're often upward of $5 a round. I can reload my 45-70 for 60c or so a round, and cheapest factory ammo is about $3.50 a shot.

Investing in a press kit adds up quick. I love my Lee 90304 kit, a turret kit. Easy, covnenient, fast. Paid for itself in no time and continues to do so over a year later, works just like it was new.
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by Lsfan » 21 Jul 2021, 10:07 pm

I’ve only used my 223 once at a range as I’m very new to shooting. I think I fired around 80 shots. There were 3 different ammo types and I think it would’ve cost me around $80 in a short time. Prior to this I’ve been using a 22 and an air rifle so quite a shock.

Anyway a guy at the range asked “can I take your brass?” I said sure I’m not reloading. He said “one of the brass types is a funny colour”. He took it anyway.

It was actually Hornady steel match ammo of which I fired all 50. Can’t reload steel cases can you?
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by boingk » 21 Jul 2021, 10:11 pm

Lsfan wrote:Anyway a guy at the range asked “can I take your brass?” I said sure I’m not reloading. He said “one of the brass types is a funny colour”. He took it anyway.

It was actually Hornady steel match ammo of which I fired all 50. Can’t reload steel cases can you?


Its generally not advised, no, but I'm sure people do it.
Nil
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Re: Got the .223, now for something bigger !

Post by ZaineB » 22 Jul 2021, 2:20 am

boingk wrote:
Where it gets really interesting is the big boppers like 45-70 or the big game magnums. They're often upward of $5 a round. I can reload my 45-70 for 60c or so a round, and cheapest factory ammo is about $3.50 a shot.


hey boingk, any pointers on your 45-70 loads? what components? what velocities are you getting?

cheers
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