Could I have hurt my barrel? First shoot.

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Could I have hurt my barrel? First shoot.

Post by sbd850 » 13 Jul 2021, 8:54 pm

Hey all,

I went for my first shoot yesterday with my new Tikka T3X Super Varmint in 6.5CM.

With break in, Sako insist that it isn't necessary but the vast majority of gunsmiths insist that it is. I did an in between of patching through every 3-5 rounds and ran the brush through a few times. I felt like I had to apply a fair amount of pressure to get the rod through. With each patch out I went through until there was minimal copper on the patch.

I went with 2 types of ammo - Sellior & Ballot 140g SP and Hornady Whitetail 129g. With the S&B I was getting consistent sub moa groups. I did a really good clean when I finished off the S&B box and then commenced firing the Whitetails and my groups opened up to 2-3 inches. Could I have hurt my barrel? As far as I know, the Whitetail 129g is s'posed to be very good ammo and I'm worried about *how* large the groups were.

With all that being said, this was also my 4th time ever shooting and my first time on my own - so some of this could have been my own inconsistencies. However the fact remains that the S&B shot fairly well and the Hornady had more spread than a corner worker.

Also worth mention, I did have some feed issues with the S&B and none with the Hornady - I'm not sure what the cause of that was. Also, with the S&B at first my shots were hitting right on my point of aim and the last 6ish rounds of the box were hitting about 2cm left. Wind had picked up at this point from when I got my initial zero - but I had assumed that wind at 100m with a 6.5CM wouldn't have that much of an effect.

Anyway, I didn't clean the barrel too hard, every time I used the brush I only did one run up and back and with the patches I only went straight through in a forward direction.

I was out of rounds after the Hornady box and had to leave the range to get to work. So I won't know untip next time back with the S&B how well the rifle is shooting.

Any help and expertise will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.
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Re: Could I have hurt my barrel? First shoot.

Post by boingk » 13 Jul 2021, 9:01 pm

Hi mate, congrats on the new rifle!

Its a big thing, do you clean or don't you... many opinions about it but I won't get into that. I reckon it doesn't matter either way.

The thing is, you won't have damaged it if its how you've described. Think of the forces involved in sending a round through the barrel, the heat and pressure and velocity of it all. Now visualise yourself gingerly pushing a brush and patch through generating pretty much nil of all the above.

Most rifles just prefer a certain type of ammunition. Some ammunition is suited to longer barrels, tighter twist rates, etc etc. You've found one that works and one that doesn't.

I'd stick with the one that works!

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Re: Could I have hurt my barrel? First shoot.

Post by bigpete » 13 Jul 2021, 9:10 pm

Yeah its toast
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Re: Could I have hurt my barrel? First shoot.

Post by boingk » 13 Jul 2021, 9:11 pm

bigpete wrote:Yeah its toast


Come on... I was just trying to be nice to him...

:lol:
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Post by No1Mk3 » 13 Jul 2021, 9:16 pm

G'day sbd850,
First a little advice, don't take any notice of what any gunsmith says about barrel break-in, they didn't make the barrel Sako did and they have been making top class barrels for 101 years. Having said that, doing one doesn't hurt at all, I don't bother with factory lapped barrels, but I do with cheaper single cut and button rifled barrels, and a sort of one with forged barrels. As to your results, ammo from different makers will vary in size, your new chambermaybe why S&B are tight, and your wind effect is less than1moa, so yes it could be a rising breeze even at 100m. Some rifles just don't shoot some ammo, I find Whitetail 117g 25-06 shoots fabulous in my heavy barrel Ruger. More time on the range is what you need to determine any real pattern with your rifle, a couple (not heaps) of different loads/makers to try, then start handloading for best results. I only use a copper brush every 15 to 20 cleans, and use a nylon bristle other times, Cheers.
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Post by JohnV » 13 Jul 2021, 10:46 pm

Your cleaning regime is totally useless . So after the full box of S&B fouling was building up especially in a new possibly not so smooth barrel . Part of any break in is to clean more and often to keep as much fouling out while the bullets polish up the barrel .
Never put a dry patch into a barrel first up . Use solvent and scrub back and forth with a bronze brush at least 6 times . Let it sit for a while and then patch it out . Then do it again . You have not damaged the barrel you have just fouled it and some extra wind came up and you were getting tired and the Sako barrel may not like the Hornady ammo . New non competition barrels foul quicker and accuracy can suffer more . Hence the run in procedure . Is it totally necessary , no , probably not on a Sako hammer forged barrel , but proper cleaning is necessary . Once a barrel runs in it needs less frequent cleaning and accuracy drop off will tell you when to clean again .
Last edited by JohnV on 13 Jul 2021, 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by in2anity » 13 Jul 2021, 10:47 pm

Remember; your ability to shoot a tight group diminishes with an outing on the range - you have to concentrate harder and harder to keep the group going, due to mental and physical fatigue. Also as OB said, the wind will change, for better or for worse. Don’t fall into the trap thinking that the 6.5cm will “solve all your problems”, it’s just fractionally easier to use (compared with similar sized cartridges) under adverse conditions. Emphasis on the word FRACTIONALLY here, quite insignificant at 100m (in like-for-like setups, shooting optimal loads). Bullets still get knocked at 100m, particularly noticeable from a fully supported position. Crunch the hypotheticals in the Strelok Pro app and see for yourself.

You’re probably on to something with your identification of S&B, but from my experience S&B factory has never been something to write home about. Just keep shooting, things you think are important and relevant now will change a lot the more you shoot.

Oh and no, your barrel is fine. Just keep treating her with respect. Brush forward only and let the chemicals do the work, over mechanical intervention. Less is more.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Post by pomemax » 13 Jul 2021, 11:43 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GVNo3OVwTE&t=111s
go watch that video and see how sako make them then you will know that you do not have to break then in the barrels are hammer forged no machining burrs.
Sako are confident you should get sub moa out of the box ( at 100 yards, one MOA is equal to 1.0472 inch ) with iron sights so slow down and just shoot try different ammo then at the end of the day clean it and just practice .
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Post by sbd850 » 14 Jul 2021, 12:35 am

in2anity wrote:Remember; your ability to shoot a tight group diminishes with an outing on the range - you have to concentrate harder and harder to keep the group going, due to mental and physical fatigue. Also as OB said, the wind will change, for better or for worse. Don’t fall into the trap thinking that the 6.5cm will “solve all your problems”, it’s just fractionally easier to use (compared with similar sized cartridges) under adverse conditions. Emphasis on the word FRACTIONALLY here, quite insignificant at 100m (in like-for-like setups, shooting optimal loads). Bullets still get knocked at 100m, particularly noticeable from a fully supported position. Crunch the hypotheticals in the Strelok Pro app and see for yourself.

You’re probably on to something with your identification of S&B, but from my experience S&B factory has never been something to write home about. Just keep shooting, things you think are important and relevant now will change a lot the more you shoot.

Oh and no, your barrel is fine. Just keep treating her with respect. Brush forward only and let the chemicals do the work, over mechanical intervention. Less is more.


Thanks for the info,

With S&B typically not being something to write home about - that's a lot of the reason why I was stressing, I had thought surely Hornady should be firing a lot better, so when I started seeing open groups I was concerned.

As for the windage, next time out I'll rezero under minimal wind and then just adjust as necessary from there.
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Post by straightshooter » 14 Jul 2021, 7:54 am

Regarding "barrel break in", one could improve one's perception of the subject, especially if one is a "true believer", by following this archived bulletin board conversation.
https://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/break_in.html
Regarding Hornady ammo, it would appear in recent times the gloss has worn off it being marketed as premium high accuracy ammo and thus priced. I know of one instance of a refund being given to a moderately large purchaser.
As for factory rifles, they all conform to the Pareto distribution as applied to quality. Also known as the 80 - 20 rule.
That is 10% are the highest quality, examples of these are what is sent to professional reviewers for glowing reviews.
80% are of good merchantable quality and the purchaser of these is quite happy in the belief that he has something equal to the upper 10%.
The remaining 10% are what people sometimes grumble about on forums.
That was today's dose of cynicism.
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Re: Could I have hurt my barrel? First shoot.

Post by in2anity » 14 Jul 2021, 8:03 am

sbd850 wrote:As for the windage, next time out I'll rezero under minimal wind and then just adjust as necessary from there.

Yeah, do what you gotta do sbd850, just keep practicing. Join a club to turn it into a hobby :drinks: My advice, start paying close attention to the flags (and also mirage, if possible). When your groups start to go awry, see if you can spot if conditions have changed. A 6-o'clock or 12-o'clock wind is harder to deal with because any slight switch in direction can badly affect your point of impact. Meanwhile a 3-o'clock or 9-o'clock perpendicular is a bit more resilient, i.e. the same small fluctuations at these angles have comparably less effect on trajectory.
Last edited by in2anity on 14 Jul 2021, 8:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by in2anity » 14 Jul 2021, 8:04 am

straightshooter wrote:As for factory rifles, they all conform to the Pareto distribution as applied to quality. Also known as the 80 - 20 rule.
That is 10% are the highest quality, examples of these are what is sent to professional reviewers for glowing reviews.
80% are of good merchantable quality and the purchaser of these is quite happy in the belief that he has something equal to the upper 10%.
The remaining 10% are what people sometimes grumble about on forums.
That was today's dose of cynicism.

Yes I had the same thought SS. There's always the possibility of a lemon.
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Post by SCJ429 » 14 Jul 2021, 8:36 am

You need to have a fairly tight patch, if you push it through with little effort then you need a bigger patch next time. If you have to hammer the patch through, then it is too tight. The first patch must be covered in carbon remover, once you have the carbon out then switch to copper.

Your 6.5 CM is just another bullet which will get blown around in the wind, as Insanity said, put out a wind flags or watch the mirage. The mirage will appear in waves in the direction that the wind is blowing. Slightly blur your focus to see this better. You can often see mirage even in cold conditions, just look out for it.
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Post by sbd850 » 14 Jul 2021, 8:49 am

straightshooter wrote:Regarding "barrel break in", one could improve one's perception of the subject, especially if one is a "true believer", by following this archived bulletin board conversation.
https://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/break_in.html
Regarding Hornady ammo, it would appear in recent times the gloss has worn off it being marketed as premium high accuracy ammo and thus priced. I know of one instance of a refund being given to a moderately large purchaser.
As for factory rifles, they all conform to the Pareto distribution as applied to quality. Also known as the 80 - 20 rule.
That is 10% are the highest quality, examples of these are what is sent to professional reviewers for glowing reviews.
80% are of good merchantable quality and the purchaser of these is quite happy in the belief that he has something equal to the upper 10%.
The remaining 10% are what people sometimes grumble about on forums.
That was today's dose of cynicism.


From what I've seen, all Tikkas follow the exact same production through the exact same machine and I've never seen much complaint about them.
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Post by JohnV » 14 Jul 2021, 9:40 am

Hammer forged barrels do indeed have no machining burrs like other forms of rifling can have but the mandrels and machines need to be very clean as any rubbish on the mandrel gets hammered into the surface and usually collects along the inner edge of the grooves .
It can be hard to see as it's all flattened down but starts to lift and come away during firing and cleaning . The notion that hammer forged has not potential issues is wrong . Generally they are way better than button or single point cut rifled barrels . Sako , Tikka and Howa use hammer forging , can't remember any others . Some barrels will get nothing extra from running in and other rougher barrels will .
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Post by in2anity » 14 Jul 2021, 9:49 am

The POI definitely changes as you break it in, before settling down. And you can see it in the fouling; a brand new barrel fouls more with a low round count. I don't feel these "break in" procedures change much in this regard however; put simply you just have to clean more at the start of a barrels life. If you wanna do some break in thing on the line, the cleanup at home will probably be less, because you "kept on top of" the fouling. Do I do this? Nah bugger that, I like to shoot when i'm at the range :D
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Post by straightshooter » 14 Jul 2021, 10:13 am

sbd850
Tikka and Sako barrels blanks come out of the same hammer forging machine.
I don't know if they are forged with an integral chamber as that is a tricky process and can easily result in a lot of scrap.
In any case there are a number of processes applied to the barrel before it is mated to a receiver and each of those processes can be a source of tolerance deviation.
One thing to consider is whether there is a barrel blank selection process to differentiate between premium priced Sako and medium priced Tikka.
Another thing to consider is that hammer forged barrels don't have much of a reputation in competitive benchrest circles. That does not mean they are no good or inaccurate just that when the absolute best is required they are not considered.
You could benefit from reading the link I posted all the way through.
Returning to your original post I believe you would be quite justified in thinking that your Tikka shoots quite well and the S&B ammo is pretty good but the Hornady ammo not so good and acting accordingly rather than grasping at fancy schmancy rationalisations.
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Post by Wm.Traynor » 14 Jul 2021, 10:49 am

sbd850,
I suppose that it is possible that one or more of your fasteners could have loosened while you were shooting. Your scope and mounts particularly, rather than the take-down bolts, which usually these days are threadlocked.
Do you still have your targets? Take a look at the "shape" of the poor groups, ignoring horizontal dispersion. Is the vertical dispersion greater than the horizontal? If so, it could indicate problems with bedding and/or fasteners. Bench technique is probably not an issue, although you might be tiring.
Cleaning is a whole nuther subject :twisted: ;) I have my methods with BoreTech products but it is also about how you use the tools.
Let us know how you go mate :thumbsup:
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Re: Could I have hurt my barrel? First shoot.

Post by sbd850 » 14 Jul 2021, 12:59 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:sbd850,
I suppose that it is possible that one or more of your fasteners could have loosened while you were shooting. Your scope and mounts particularly, rather than the take-down bolts, which usually these days are threadlocked.
Do you still have your targets? Take a look at the "shape" of the poor groups, ignoring horizontal dispersion. Is the vertical dispersion greater than the horizontal? If so, it could indicate problems with bedding and/or fasteners. Bench technique is probably not an issue, although you might be tiring.
Cleaning is a whole nuther subject :twisted: ;) I have my methods with BoreTech products but it is also about how you use the tools.
Let us know how you go mate :thumbsup:


Pretty much right on 3.5 inches horizontal and vertical over 5 shots with the Hornady.

S&B was fairly consistently around .75 to .90 MOA going by eye in 3 shot groups.

It would be good if I could upload the photos, damn.
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Post by JohnV » 14 Jul 2021, 1:33 pm

It's very early days so don't panic. Give the gun a really good clean and try again with some S&B ammo and some other brands .
The best most helpful photo you could post is your shooting setup , rests etc . Also a video of you firing some shots would help .
It takes time to work out a new gun and find what ammo it likes and how it likes to be shot .
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Post by in2anity » 14 Jul 2021, 3:20 pm

sbd850 is she a sporter weight, or varmint barrel?
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Post by Bello » 14 Jul 2021, 4:42 pm

Hi SBD850

I have two, 223 Sako rifles.
With one rifle, I went through the process at the range of breaking in the barrel, cleaning etc. etc. Then did my load development. Shoots as expected.
The other one, I just cleaned the barrel well and did my load development. It shoots as expected. No break in procedure.

I am no expert, not even close. But I have found that they both shoot really well. No real difference.

Before I bought my rifles, I spoke with gun smiths, seasoned shooters, did lots of reading and internets searches etc on breaking in barrels.
Experts were interviewed, barrel makers were interviewed, and they were 50 - 50. Some said its must be done others said just give the barrel a good clean.

To this date I am still confused which is better. :crazy:

I have also bought second hand rifles, not knowing how the barrels were broken in. I gave them a good clean, did my usual load development, and they shoot minute of deer perfectly out to two hundred meters.

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Post by Wm.Traynor » 14 Jul 2021, 7:15 pm

sbd850 wrote:
Wm.Traynor wrote:sbd850,
I suppose that it is possible that one or more of your fasteners could have loosened while you were shooting. Your scope and mounts particularly, rather than the take-down bolts, which usually these days are threadlocked.
Do you still have your targets? Take a look at the "shape" of the poor groups, ignoring horizontal dispersion. Is the vertical dispersion greater than the horizontal? If so, it could indicate problems with bedding and/or fasteners. Bench technique is probably not an issue, although you might be tiring.
Cleaning is a whole nuther subject :twisted: ;) I have my methods with BoreTech products but it is also about how you use the tools.
Let us know how you go mate :thumbsup:


Pretty much right on 3.5 inches horizontal and vertical over 5 shots with the Hornady.

S&B was fairly consistently around .75 to .90 MOA going by eye in 3 shot groups.

It would be good if I could upload the photos, damn.


I would call those Hornady groups "Round". Therefore, I see no reason to suspect any of your fasteners, or your bedding.
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Post by ZaineB » 14 Jul 2021, 7:45 pm

never ran in a barrel in my life, never had an issue.
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Post by duncan61 » 14 Jul 2021, 11:08 pm

No.Barrels are hard and the copper jacket on a bullet is not for show it is a lubricant that allows us to push the bullet faster without the fouling of lead bullets.I am a big fan of good cleaning after shooting.I can do 40-50 .222 and it will still go O.K. the following night but 3 nights in a row and it starts spraying them.Only needs a few solvent patchs a few push throughs with a copper brush then a few dry patches and its good to go again.every now and then I give my rifles the full sweets and brushing treatment then it takes a few shots to get back on and away we go again
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Re: Could I have hurt my barrel? First shoot.

Post by Apollo » 15 Jul 2021, 12:48 am

Well, I've been shooting for over 60 years.

In the beginning as a kid I couldn't hit anything and I tried to shoot anything that moved. It was all fun but learning.

Move on 20 years and I started reloading, that's where the accuracy started.

In any number of rifles I have never seen a shop bough packet of ammo shoot anywhere near what I can produce myself.

Don't give up... Nothing wrong with a Tikka, in fact I have a Tikka 243W Barrel on a Sako 85 that I shoot in competition 300m and win. Tikka/Sako Barrels they are the same in my view.

I did shoot before this latest Covid rubbish every competition in NSW I could get to, loved it shooting at a National Competition level and being in the top section.

From what I have read here, you have not damaged the barrel. Be it CZ, Tikka, Sako Hammer Forged Barrels they leave the likes of Remington or Ruger for dead in the waters.... Tikka/Sako barrels are the same, same factory and best I know or have heard there is no selection process between the two. They need no running in process really other than an initial clean, and a clean between shots for a few rounds just to see what is happening. I don't use Bronze Brushes, I gave up with Sweets a decade ago and now only use Boretech products. Two mates I have do the same and we do win 500m Competitions.

At home on my farm, for one I have a CZ 527 Varmint and my main culling rifle, I don't clean it much but perhaps once every couple of months and/or 50 rounds. It shoots less than 1/2 MOA, but if I clean it then I need to foul it for it to shoot properly. First clean cold shot maybe 1/2" different then the rest about a 1/2" 5 shot group. Testing at 100 y/m I use 4 wind flags and my front rest is a Farley sitting on a home made bench better that most ranges have.

Now I'm over 70YO and I'd love to be shooting competition all year BUT this Bug have put a damper on it all. Over the last years I could give all the youngsters a run for their money and be pretty much in the top dozen or close out of 50/60 shooters.

I hate S&B Ammo, I think its s**t. Get into reloading or get someone to do it for you and test yourself. I'm lucky being on land, I can test at home if needed out to over 500m, but the big thing is I can pick my day and time of day to do tests.

Don't give up. From what I read is all you need is more practise and learn your rifle.
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Re: Could I have hurt my barrel? First shoot.

Post by Apollo » 15 Jul 2021, 1:02 am

BTW....

Always use a Bore Guide when cleaning. Don't ever reverse a brush in the bore. Don't force or go too fast with a brush (slow and easy).

As mentioned, first patch with a carbon cleaner and push it forward then out and replace maybe do another. Just gets rid of the crap first up.

Don't over clean, don't be too aggressive with the cleaning.
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Re: Could I have hurt my barrel? First shoot.

Post by sbd850 » 15 Jul 2021, 10:35 am

in2anity wrote:sbd850 is she a sporter weight, or varmint barrel?


Varmint
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Re: Could I have hurt my barrel? First shoot.

Post by sbd850 » 15 Jul 2021, 10:45 am

Apollo wrote:BTW....

Always use a Bore Guide when cleaning. Don't ever reverse a brush in the bore. Don't force or go too fast with a brush (slow and easy).

As mentioned, first patch with a carbon cleaner and push it forward then out and replace maybe do another. Just gets rid of the crap first up.

Don't over clean, don't be too aggressive with the cleaning.


Oops I didn't use a bore guide, I kept the rod steady though.

I also did use the brush up and back once each time that I used it, I was told this was okay.
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Re: Could I have hurt my barrel? First shoot.

Post by Oldbloke » 15 Jul 2021, 2:23 pm

It's rooted. But being a good guy I'll give you $50 for it and pay the postage. ;)
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