Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

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Re: Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

Post by Bill » 04 Aug 2021, 6:13 pm

Medb did you keep any of the Remington boxes the ammo came in ? Ive found in the past remington put a production date on them. was on the underside of top flap. I found this on some 444 Marlin brass I annealed recently, manufacturer date was 1982
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Re: Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

Post by Medb » 04 Aug 2021, 10:25 pm

Yes, I do have the boxes and have contacted Remington and supplied what identifying codes I could locate on the boxes, I haven't heard back from them yet. I'm not sure what number in which location is the designation for the manufacture date. On the underside exterior of the top flap there is two short embossed codes "S17" and "0CI."

edit: Remington replied that "I talked with an engineer and he said it looked like the bottom of the shell did not get annealed properly."
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Re: Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

Post by Apollo » 05 Aug 2021, 12:01 am

And did they offer to replace all the ammo you have.... I would think probably not as it would be a bit difficult to organize. Perhaps maybe yes if it was the Remington Company of older times.

Hope it turns out a bit better for you heading on.
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Re: Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

Post by Veetwin » 05 Aug 2021, 10:15 am

Watching 2 videos of the Lithgow factory. All the machine tools are constantly being rotated and measured for spec and tolerances. All the barrels are inspected and the CNC machines are all automated to 0.6 microns. The rifles are all proof fired and also fired for accuracy before they leave. I also watched a Sako factory video. The processes look very, very, very similar. Both actions CNC machined, both barrels hammer forged both machine tools constantly being measured. Lithgow is a military manufacturer which means they must have very strict controls in place. Why has the original poster not taken the rifle back to the shop he bought it from, and had them inspect it. The rounds you have used have been played with in another rifle before you shot it. If your gun shop talks to Lithgow for you, a decision could be made as to whether it needs to go back to the factory. Surly the gun shop has a gun smith. Do not fire it again until you have done that, for safety's sake. Seems simple. Most everyone agrees it should be looked at. No disrespect to anyone.
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Re: Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

Post by Veetwin » 05 Aug 2021, 10:17 am

edit: Remington replied that "I talked with an engineer and he said it looked like the bottom of the shell did not get annealed properly."

That is interesting!
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Re: Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

Post by Gamerancher » 05 Aug 2021, 10:54 am

"Surly the gun shop has a gun smith"

Yeah, Nah!
Very few gunshops actually have a gunsmith on site. They may have someone who has been around a bit and maybe even someone with extensive knowledge of firearms, but as for a qualified gunsmith, no.
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Re: Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

Post by bladeracer » 05 Aug 2021, 1:27 pm

Veetwin wrote:The rounds you have used have been played with in another rifle before you shot it.


When was this Revelation made? I missed that.
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Re: Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

Post by Veetwin » 05 Aug 2021, 2:00 pm

"My only other thought was that the cases on those rounds may have possibly been slightly dented or damaged due to being used for some earlier testing when I was having feeding issues with a certain magazine. The rifle has been installed into a MDT ESS chassis, and one of my magazines was not feeding correctly and I was trying to diagnose it. See the picture below as an example.

feed.jpg


However it's not like it's a semi auto where the rounds would be subject to significant force, I was being quite gentle with the action and once they became stuck like that I did not try to forcefully jam them in any further. But those same 5 rounds that I was using for testing which went through the action a bunch of times and sometimes became stuck like that were definitely included in the batch of rounds I was firing.[/quote]

My only other thought was that the cases on those rounds may have possibly been slightly dented or damaged due to being used for some earlier testing when I was having feeding issues with a certain magazine. The rifle has been installed into a MDT ESS chassis, and one of my magazines was not feeding correctly and I was trying to diagnose it. See the picture below as an example.

feed.jpg
feed.jpg (716.63 KiB) Viewed 335 times



However it's not like it's a semi auto where the rounds would be subject to significant force, I was being quite gentle with the action and once they became stuck like that I did not try to forcefully jam them in any further. But those same 5 rounds that I was using for testing which went through the action a bunch of times and sometimes became stuck like that were definitely included in the batch of rounds I was firing."
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Re: Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

Post by bladeracer » 05 Aug 2021, 3:30 pm

That's the same rifle.
And these longitudinal splits are not straight, like from a deep scratch in the brass.


Veetwin wrote:"My only other thought was that the cases on those rounds may have possibly been slightly dented or damaged due to being used for some earlier testing when I was having feeding issues with a certain magazine. The rifle has been installed into a MDT ESS chassis, and one of my magazines was not feeding correctly and I was trying to diagnose it. See the picture below as an example.

feed.jpg


However it's not like it's a semi auto where the rounds would be subject to significant force, I was being quite gentle with the action and once they became stuck like that I did not try to forcefully jam them in any further. But those same 5 rounds that I was using for testing which went through the action a bunch of times and sometimes became stuck like that were definitely included in the batch of rounds I was firing.
Last edited by bladeracer on 05 Aug 2021, 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

Post by Downunder » 05 Aug 2021, 4:41 pm

Risk adversity dictates to some to have the rifle professionally assessed as the first step, whilst I’m not condoning firing it until the issue is identified I am suggesting a hierarchy of problem solving should start with the ammunition and specifically the brass.
There are many factors in the brass forming process that potentially could contribute to all matter of failures from the combination of the raw ingredients, manufacturing process as well as how the user has handled it.

I find the reply from Remington interesting and freshly honest, It would suggest they know of batches where during the draw out process oven annealing has failed to sufficient soften the brass to keep it adequately workable causing stress points resulting in failures upon firing.

Lithgow’s reply seems to suggest their confident in their manufacturing and QA at this time, this could be because they have had no other issues arise in that model/chambering combination.

If my memory serves me correctly they did have a problem back in mid 2018 with barrels cracking on some 102’s chambered in .223 and promptly issued a desist use and recall notice.

Brass is a complicated drawn out (pun intended) process, over the years I’ve had defect brass in a mired of chamberings With widely differing problems from a number of manufactures, Win, Rem, S&B, PPC, Hornady and even Norma.
Lapua, Peterson, Fed have been ok to date.

It’s interesting an beneficial for those using brass cartridges to know the rudimentary foundations of how their ammunition is manufactured.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/how-cartridge-brass-is-made/
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Re: Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

Post by Medb » 10 Aug 2021, 2:02 pm

Apollo wrote:And did they offer to replace all the ammo you have.... I would think probably not as it would be a bit difficult to organize. Perhaps maybe yes if it was the Remington Company of older times.

Hope it turns out a bit better for you heading on.


Just wanted to update on this, and actually yes they did.

They contacted NIOA on my behalf, who have since reached out to me and are offering to replace it. As for how much of it they will replace and what I will actually get back, I don't know yet. Half the rounds I have are still in the original factory boxes so hopefully at least that, but the other half I unboxed and put in cans for easier storage, so who knows what they will do regarding that.
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Re: Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

Post by Apollo » 10 Aug 2021, 2:48 pm

Well, that is really good news.

I take it that you didn't save the original boxes, but NIOA have been doing some good things so they might just say return the whole lot boxed or not. If they were really great they should say all the empties as well and replace the whole quantity you purchased as a good will story.

Best of luck with the final result.
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Re: Ruptured/Split cases in new rifle

Post by Bello » 11 Aug 2021, 9:09 am

Hi Guys

I have had several dealings with NIOA.
I can only say that they have been FANTASTIC with me.

I would expect the same will happen with you. :thumbsup:
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