pilotsignal wrote:Thaks everyone for sharing your thoughts on this. I am also leaning towards Sauer. Only, that I read about 2 comments that there is an issue with feeding a round into the chamber. But, that may be a particular rifle issue not a design one.
Also, it looks a bit better
Bugman wrote:I had a look at both these. Mighty fine rifles, but I also looked at the Weatherby Vanguard, and that is what I ended up with. With a bit of scope tweaking and reloading tweaking it ended up shooting .386 of an inch (3 shot group) at 100m. This information can pertain to any of the rifles mentioned. I guess in the end, opinions will vary, but you have to go with what you think will suit you.
Hope you succeed.
in2anity wrote:Ye olde euro vs jap debate. Just remember the sauer 100 was launched in 2016, yet the howa 1500 has barely changed since being copied from the Sako Golden Bear (close enough to Finnbear) designed back in the 1960s. I didn't like the original 2-stage-ish trigger on my howa 1500, and if there's any proof of similar ill-feeling, it's everyone's knowledge/desire to have the triggers adjusted by ebay trigger guy. Meanwhile the sauer is allen key adjustable down to 1kg, and a clean single break. That's convenience.
The bolt is an old 2-lug affair on the howa 1500; which equates to a 90degree throw, meaning you may have to mount your scope higher for clearance (depending on your obj size). Meanwhile the sauer is a 3-lug, meaning the throw is less, at 60degree, improving your chances of having a low mount scope. I do like 3-lug designs - my plastic fantastic little ruger hunting rifle is a 3-lugger and i can work it fast, not to mention the scope is extremely low mount, low magnification, small obj for out in the sticks.
I haven't pulled one apart, but the bedding seems fancier in the poly Sauer. A modern take.
The bolt handle is also tiny on the howa - with no threading to change it, unlike the Sauer.
Nevertheless, most accuracy comes from the barrel. And comparing the two barrels in like-for-like contours, I couldn't tell you which is superior. Both are cold hammer forged. Both would probably print a similar 3-shot sub-moa group. The ability to group would likely boil down to the quirks of individual barrels, and of course, feeding them what they like.
JohnV wrote:Who says that the basic Howa action is a copy of the Sako Golden bear ? It has a nearly M16 extractor , Remington style lugs and bolt body , Sako early series type bolt take down . Howa took their design from the Australian CMC mountaineer that was designed by Australian company Rabbige Sports and distributed by Commercial Marketing Company and manufactured in Japan by Howa . It does have some similarities to the Golden Bear but they were probably copied to design the CMC Mountaineer which was the design sent to Howa to make .
They went out of business and Howa took over the design and renamed it the Howa .
in2anity wrote:JohnV wrote:Who says that the basic Howa action is a copy of the Sako Golden bear ? It has a nearly M16 extractor , Remington style lugs and bolt body , Sako early series type bolt take down . Howa took their design from the Australian CMC mountaineer that was designed by Australian company Rabbige Sports and distributed by Commercial Marketing Company and manufactured in Japan by Howa . It does have some similarities to the Golden Bear but they were probably copied to design the CMC Mountaineer which was the design sent to Howa to make .
They went out of business and Howa took over the design and renamed it the Howa .
Not gonna argue around semantics, but that's the generalization that is often made. In any case I don't have one to compare to, nor am I particularly knowledgeable in the history, nor do I care. Happy to admit that.
The point was, it's an old design compared to the Sauer 100. We digress.
JohnV wrote:It's not very useful to even compare the two guns as they are so different and it would depend on personal needs more than one being better than the other . It's not even possible to properly advise someone without information on what they want to use it for .
in2anity wrote:Almost certainly a magazine issue - as-is the HOWA, the Sauer is a simple push-feed action, so the feed lip angle/height is critical. If it were a metal magazine, you could tune your feed lips to match the projectile; alas we are in the age of plastic fantastic. Still, a solveable problem - replace/warranty the mag or try perhaps an aftermarket?
Also, the HOWA's aren't exactly "free from all feeding issues" - over the years I've seen a few new ones exhibiting feeding issues. Have a look at this video:
https://youtu.be/3CmQypK8eBo?t=818 at timestamp 13:40
around this time, I knew a few people having similar issues with their new HOWAs.
Bill wrote:
Looks like the mag spring was almost too strong, I didnt have this issue in any of the 3 Howa minis Ive owned.
pilotsignal wrote:I have read that mag issues only manifsets on mini action versions.
BTW, and I could not find this info at any shops online, are HOWA 1500 available with Long and Short actions as well as mini?
JohnV wrote:in2anity wrote:Ye olde euro vs jap debate. Just remember the sauer 100 was launched in 2016, yet the howa 1500 has barely changed since being copied from the Sako Golden Bear (close enough to Finnbear) designed back in the 1960s. I didn't like the original 2-stage-ish trigger on my howa 1500, and if there's any proof of similar ill-feeling, it's everyone's knowledge/desire to have the triggers adjusted by ebay trigger guy. Meanwhile the sauer is allen key adjustable down to 1kg, and a clean single break. That's convenience.
The bolt is an old 2-lug affair on the howa 1500; which equates to a 90degree throw, meaning you may have to mount your scope higher for clearance (depending on your obj size). Meanwhile the sauer is a 3-lug, meaning the throw is less, at 60degree, improving your chances of having a low mount scope. I do like 3-lug designs - my plastic fantastic little ruger hunting rifle is a 3-lugger and i can work it fast, not to mention the scope is extremely low mount, low magnification, small obj for out in the sticks.
I haven't pulled one apart, but the bedding seems fancier in the poly Sauer. A modern take.
The bolt handle is also tiny on the howa - with no threading to change it, unlike the Sauer.
Nevertheless, most accuracy comes from the barrel. And comparing the two barrels in like-for-like contours, I couldn't tell you which is superior. Both are cold hammer forged. Both would probably print a similar 3-shot sub-moa group. The ability to group would likely boil down to the quirks of individual barrels, and of course, feeding them what they like.
Who says that the basic Howa action is a copy of the Sako Golden bear ? It has a nearly M16 extractor , Remington style lugs and bolt body , Sako early series type bolt take down . Howa took their design from the Australian CMC mountaineer that was designed by Australian company Rabbige Sports and distributed by Commercial Marketing Company and manufactured in Japan by Howa . It does have some similarities to the Golden Bear but they were probably copied to design the CMC Mountaineer which was the design sent to Howa to make .
They went out of business and Howa took over the design and renamed it the Howa .