Sighting in a rifle

[leafs]

I have watched a few you tube videos where they are getting good groups and then they say the get a flier . This seems to happen often .
Is it the shooter, the ammo, the gun, or something else? I'm having the same problem. Any help Thanks

[Harrynsw]

I have watched a few you tube videos where they are getting good groups and then they say the get a flier . This seems to happen often .
Is it the shooter, the ammo, the gun, or something else? I'm having the same problem. Any help Thanks

More than likely the shooter. The other things you mentioned can also play a part.

[Larry]

What rifle and ammunition are you using?

[JohnV]

It could be like a dozen different things or even a combination of things . If you have one flyer in a group . Rest the barrel between shots to keep it cooler . Keep a better check on wind changes . Check your setup or hold so it's the same each time . Concentrate on slow trigger squeeze and make it the same each time . Breath out half breath and hold before you start the trigger squeeze . Clean the barrel properly after 30 odd shots . After cleaning fire one or two fouling shots before you start a group .
If none of that helps . Change ammo and start looking at the guns bedding system for possible improvements .
If shooting from bench rests , remove any slings or sling studs that can get caught up on the bags . If the gun has some recoil then don't let it leap around and jump back at you under recoil .
Also check scope mount screws and action screws for correct tightness .
Another thing is get someone experienced to watch you shoot and rule out any flinch or bad setup .
Also if you get another experienced shooter to shoot the gun and if they can put down a tight group no problem you know it's something or a few things you are doing wrong .

[leafs]

Ammo Ren.130 , Hornady 140 Will try things by John v

[Bello]

Hi mate
I agree with what has been said above
What brand is your rifle
What caliber are you using
What is the twist rate
How many shots are you taking at any one time (how many shots in your string)
Is the barrel thin or thick
Are the bullets you are using reloads or factory
Are you shooting off a solid bench
How is the rifle supported during your string

[leafs]

Will make some adjustments and shoot again . Will let you know . May bee a week before I get out

[deanp100]

Of course the whole group could be fliers and the odd one out was thr in,y one that went where it was supposed to. If your gun is average, and you are average it can cancel each other out and produce a good 3 shot group. But thr law of averages says it can’t keep happening like that.

[flashman]

Hay ..........question :can you break in a barrel and sight the weapon at the same time.....?

[Downunder]

Consistency in everything is the key to grouping.
My 2c, another process of elimination starting with your form/shooting position, it should be comfortable and the same for every shot.
Still no good look at tools and consumables.

[JohnV]

Hay ..........question :can you break in a barrel and sight the weapon at the same time.....?

Yes you can. However once all the cleaning and run in is complete , double check that the zero is where you want it as it may need a slight tweak . I like to let the gun cool right down and then fire a cold bore shot and see where that goes .

[JohnV]

Of course the whole group could be fliers and the odd one out was thr in,y one that went where it was supposed to. If your gun is average, and you are average it can cancel each other out and produce a good 3 shot group. But thr law of averages says it can’t keep happening like that.

That would only be right if the whole group was quiet large but if you have 4 shots in a neat group and one way wide then you know that's a flyer when it happens consistently . It would be mechanically unusual for a gun to have a fault or the shooter a bad technique that was consistently putting 4 shots in a tight group off zero and only one shot on zero .

[JohnV]

Will make some adjustments and shoot again . Will let you know . May bee a week before I get out

Also if you still can't get rid of a flyer after trying different things then it can also be the scope is loose inside .

[Bugman]

I have this type of problem before. I went back to basics. Checked the scope mountings etc, checked all the rifle screws etc, ran a bore snake through the barrel.
Then set up a target at 25m, fired two warm up shots, then a series of 5 shots at the target, trying to keep the same amount of control on my firing technique, especially follow through. Kept the rifle in the same position, and adjusted the scope to the point of impact. Fired another three shots at same distance. All good.
Moved target to 100m and repeated and adjusted accordingly. (luckily for me only a small amount of adjustment was needed).
I did this for three types of factory ammo for my 223. Yes it is longwinded, but at the time, I had a LOT of time on my hands. Maybe this will help you.

[bladeracer]

I have watched a few you tube videos where they are getting good groups and then they say the get a flier . This seems to happen often .
Is it the shooter, the ammo, the gun, or something else? I'm having the same problem. Any help Thanks

I think you're basically just seeing the randomness that is "grouping".
The true accuracy of any ammo is the size of the group that _all_ shots fall into, including the fliers, the more shots fired, the more precisely you can gauge the accuracy the ammo is capable of in that firearm. If you want to know exactly what you can guarantee the firearm can do with a specific ammunition, fire a 50rd group and measure it, or fire ten 5rd groups and average them. Even poor ammunition will throw an occasionally amazing group, that's just statistics.
You can do things to improve the ammo, the firearm, and the shooter, that will improve the accuracy though.

[JohnV]

If you fire a 50 round group you are bringing in more variables like barrel heating , copper fouling , shooter fatigue , so it's not that relevant . A sudden unexplained shot way out of the nice forming group signals something is not behaving consistently be it the wind, the gun , ammo or the shooter .

[deanp100]

Of course the whole group could be fliers and the odd one out was thr in,y one that went where it was supposed to. If your gun is average, and you are average it can cancel each other out and produce a good 3 shot group. But thr law of averages says it can’t keep happening like that.

That would only be right if the whole group was quiet large but if you have 4 shots in a neat group and one way wide then you know that's a flyer when it happens consistently . It would be mechanically unusual for a gun to have a fault or the shooter a bad technique that was consistently putting 4 shots in a tight group off zero and only one shot on zero .

Of course. The more you fire the more the odds improve. 3 shot groups can make you feel very good, more often.

[bladeracer]

If you fire a 50 round group you are bringing in more variables like barrel heating , copper fouling , shooter fatigue , so it's not that relevant . A sudden unexplained shot way out of the nice forming group signals something is not behaving consistently be it the wind, the gun , ammo or the shooter .

The only thing I clean the bore in anywhere near 50rds is blackpowder, everything else gets the bore cleaned when accuracy starts to deteriorate.

[JohnV]

It depends on what you call accuracy . However most really tight shooting guns show up some accuracy drop off well before 50 uncoated rounds . If the gun shoots larger groups then it's harder to say where accuracy is getting worse .
I shoot moly coated bullets in 223 and don't clean for about 250 to 300 rounds but that's not relevant to this thread either .
30 shots is a good starting place to keep barrel fouling out of the variable equation . How fast a certain barrel fouls compared to another barrel in another gun with different ammo is a highly uncertain thing so applying what you do might be unsuitable for this situation and just create more variables . How dumb would it be for me to advise shooting for 300 rounds before cleaning just because that's what I do ? I am trying to advise sensible starting points to reduce the variables to try and iron out a problem .

[Larry]

If you want the best number statistically for a good measurements then a sample size of 21 will give you a 2*SD or 99.96% confidence level.A group is more than 3 shots even 5 not enough at least 10

[in2anity]

If you want the best number statistically for a good measurements then a sample size of 21 will give you a 2*SD or 99.96% confidence level.A group is more than 3 shots even 5 not enough at least 10

It takes me weeks of matches, at varying ranges, to form an opinion on a load. Granted sling shooting slows this process down, but I am curious how one can “load develop” in groups of 3. Ludicrously small sample sizes…

[boingk]

Groups are funny things. Sometimes you get a flyer due to no more than your skills in taking the shot. Other times its the barrel and action heating and contacting the stock in a way that affects point of impact. Sometimes its the limit of the ammunition or scope. Othertimes its harder to diagnose.

But... what are you looking for the rifle to do? Hunt? Or just put down tight groups?

I've gone and shot with a lot of different people. Most have an idea of what sort of accuracy they want, usually centred around MOA or a particular group size, shots touching etc...

...what puts it in perspective (for a hunting rifle) is taking a drink can and taking a shot at it from a cold barrel at 100m. A 375ml drink can is a reasonably good analouge for a critters head or vital area, and certainly a good stand-in for vermin like rabbit. If you can put one into it at the distance from a cold barrel you've got a perfect hunting rifle for 90% of encounters. If you can put another 3 or 4 into it in short order then you've about covered what you could ever resonably expect in the field in terms of sequential shots fired. Feel free to stretch this distance out to 150 or 200m and see if it makes any difference. I doubt it will for most decent combinations and reasonably proficient shooters.

If you can tag a can at any reasonable distance with a cold barrel you'll be golden. I've used this to help a few mates feel a lot more confident in their skills and equipment. FYI, if you simply fill empty cans with tap water they make a nice display when hit.

Obviously if this is a target rifle you'll be chasing a different set of criteria. I'd suggest using a target for your chosen discipline and seeing whether you can do what you want to do with it.

- boingk

[JohnV]

If you want the best number statistically for a good measurements then a sample size of 21 will give you a 2*SD or 99.96% confidence level.A group is more than 3 shots even 5 not enough at least 10

It takes me weeks of matches, at varying ranges, to form an opinion on a load. Granted sling shooting slows this process down, but I am curious how one can “load develop” in groups of 3. Ludicrously small sample sizes…

Groups of 3 just saves components and gives an idea of what's really bad grouping and what's showing some promise .
Then you can concentrate more on those promising loads .

[in2anity]

Groups of 3 just saves components and gives an idea of what's really bad grouping and what's showing some promise .
Then you can concentrate more on those promising loads .

Yes and no. This is a decent strategy for hunting rifle; you'll probably find some arbitrary spot that's "good enough". But it's hardly going to map out where your primary and secondary nodes are. You are still at the mercy of the random number gods on the day you did that first test. To properly identify the optimal sweet spot for a given rifle/powder/projectile combo, you need a big sampling across the workable area, keeping good records. And just because something shoots well at 100m, does not mean it will shoot well at say 300m. Let alone 800m, but i admit this is an unlikely distance for most, but it does illustrate the point.

And once you find your sweet spot, you will realize that a 0.1gr variance either way means SFA. The proper sweet spot will be the most resilient, under all conditions/ranges.

Nevertheless, as has been mentioned, this sort of involvement is hardly necessary for hunting load. A hunting rifle is likely to well out-class your shooting ability, taking into account your shots will be taken with a racing heart, out in some random bush situation, probably with a hasty sort of rest (if you are not a confident offhand shooter). 1moa is plenty good enough.

[JohnV]

Nothing was said by the OP about Target shooting or Competition shooting .

[straightshooter]

Ah, so we are playing with nodes again!
Why make concepts indigestibly complex worrying about trivially negligible effects when the practical answer is straightforward.
The real answer is simply explained with statistics.
Try flipping a coin 3 times. What will be the result? Lets say it is heads twice and tails once. Does that tell you that forever and a day that coin will come up heads 66.7% of the time and tails 33.3% of the time?
A sensible person would respond that the size of the sample is too small to make that specific pronouncement and even less so a generalisation.
So the answer is to make statistics work in one's favour and sight in at a longish range (eg 200 yards for general game) with groups of sufficient shots to reliably be able to find the group center. That might mean 10 or more shots with a rifle and ammunition of average accuracy or 5 shots might be enough for a rifle of particular accuracy.
When one finally does center point of aim on the true center of the group then that is when one tightens things up and goes out and enjoys hunting confident that potential hunting accuracy is optimal and no shot should be more than half the group size away from the point of aim, if one ignores trajectory issues.
Even if the accuracy of ones rifle ammo combination is only 2 to 3 moa that won't be as much of an impediment to hunting success as lack of shooting skill or hunting ability.

[SCJ429]

You can put a wind flags out to see wind changes that push your bullet around. Try to shoot in consistent conditions.

Use a chronograph to see if the flyer was going faster or slower than the other rounds.

Is it the last round that is the flyer? Some people feel the pressure of a good group and stuff up the last shot.

Use a good rest of bipod and a rear bag. Have the rifle sitting in the same place every time. Build your shooting position and don't move off it for the whole group.

[in2anity]

Nothing was said by the OP about Target shooting or Competition shooting .

Nothing was said by leafs that this is specifically for hunting. Seems to me he wants to marvel over small groups. Isn't that target shooting?

[boingk]

Nothing was said by the OP about Target shooting or Competition shooting .

To be fair he's said nothing about what sort of shooting, rifle or expectations he's looking at.

From his past posts it looks like he's got a 270 and going to go hunting for deer/sambar. He's also got 1/4" groups at 100m with it. If thats the case I'd be more than happy to take that combo out in the field.

- boingk

[Bello]

Agree with boingk
For hunting, you only need minute of deer.