Some fun with milsurps

Bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action, self loading rifles and other miscellaneous longarms.

Some fun with milsurps

Post by bladeracer » 26 Sep 2021, 3:01 pm

Found this guy last week :-)
He knows how to enjoy his shooting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbIcYcUJCpg
Playing a sniping game between the Brits and the Germans.
Shoot until you miss, then swap and take the role of your enemy returning fire.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by bigpete » 26 Sep 2021, 3:18 pm

Thats cool af
bigpete
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3577
South Australia

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by bladeracer » 26 Sep 2021, 3:27 pm

bigpete wrote:Thats cool af


Yes, I was surprised at how much fun it looked once he started, but I think his own attitude adds a lot to the enjoyment :-)
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by in2anity » 28 Sep 2021, 4:50 pm

Looks to be a fairly bloody accurate No4 - i spot a lot for general issue ones (and competed with a Savage Mk1* for a while), and they don't normally shoot like that.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by northdude » 28 Sep 2021, 5:24 pm

that some good shooting. Quite an entertaining guy as well
22 hornets and most things 6.5
northdude
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 834
New Zealand

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by bladeracer » 28 Sep 2021, 7:54 pm

in2anity wrote:Looks to be a fairly bloody accurate No4 - i spot a lot for general issue ones (and competed with a Savage Mk1* for a while), and they don't normally shoot like that.


Yes, excellent shooting for sure, though he claims to be an actual sniper.

Assuming it's a full-scale IPSC silhouette it should be about 30" tall, 18" wide, with the head 6" square (or 760x450 with the head 150mm square).

At 700 yards it's about 2.5-minutes wide, by 4.25-minutes tall. So technically doable with a 2.5-minute rifle/shooter, but no room for error or poor wind calls.

9-Hole Reviews used the No4Mk1(T) out to 600yds a few years ago.
https://youtu.be/QrEVL3Uaimc
As well us un-scoped to 500yds.
https://youtu.be/cRpGtpKXYQU

I found this bloke that claims it is _fact_ that the No4Mk1(T) gets more accurate the further you shoot it :-)
https://www.snipercentral.com/british-4-mk1t/
"No.4 Mk1(T) is a legend. It served the British during WWII as an absolutely remarkable sniper rifle. Rugged, accurate, and comfortable to shoot, the No.4 Mk1(T) was a sniper’s dream! These rifles started as standard No.4 Mk1’s that were hand picked for their above average accuracy. They were then shipped to Holland and Holland, H&H, where they were restocked, scope mounts added, and a scope fitted to the rifle. The quality of work done by H&H was superb. The accuracy was nothing to write home about by today’s standards, the requirement was a 3″ group at 100yards, but it is an accepted fact that the No4 Mk1(T) rifles actually get more accurate the further you go out. You might shoot 3 MOA at 100 meters, but it will likely drop to around 1.5 MOA at 600 meters. These rifles served superbly throughout WWII (from 1942 on, when they were introduced) and actually served up through 1991 as the L42A1 (A slightly modified No4 Mk1(T))"
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by in2anity » 28 Sep 2021, 8:10 pm

His strong appreciation for the wind is there - the fact that he keeps talking about it shows he’s had a decent amount of experience. I’m bloody hopeless without flags. But he’s also shooting double-bagged, so basically F-class. And that’s a pretty serious front rest (in disguise) unlike what Henry does, with his backpack. Meh I don’t buy the whole “accuracy increases” argument about the various Lees - you do hear it from time to time. Indeed the good ones shoot into 2moa, for the first 10, but it’s hard to sustain this at distance. A bloody great video made better by the fact that its mostly a continuous take. Thanks for sharing Blade, I’ve already forwarded the link on to some friends.

Blade you’ve seen my No4-223 shoot and it’s noticeably more accurate than my swan barrel No4-303. I mostly put that down to the 303 cartridge being inherently less accurate. Makes all the difference at distance.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by bladeracer » 28 Sep 2021, 8:29 pm

in2anity wrote:His strong appreciation for the wind is there - the fact that he keeps talking about it shows he’s had a decent amount of experience. I’m bloody hopeless without flags. But he’s also shooting double-bagged, so basically F-class. And that’s a pretty serious front rest (in disguise) unlike what Henry does, with his backpack. Meh I don’t buy the whole “accuracy increases” argument about the various Lees - you do hear it from time to time. Indeed the good ones shoot into 2moa, for the first 10, but it’s hard to sustain this at distance. A bloody great video made better by the fact that its mostly a continuous take. Thanks for sharing Blade, I’ve already forwarded the link on to some friends.

Blade you’ve seen my No4-223 shoot and it’s noticeably more accurate than my swan barrel No4-303. I mostly put that down to the 303 cartridge being inherently less accurate. Makes all the difference at distance.


Yeah, I don't think anybody can claim the .303 cartridge is a precision rifle chambering :-)
Henry was using 174gn SMK handloads with the scoped rifle, probably a pretty accurate load, although the un-scoped rifle did very well also with milsurp ammo.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by in2anity » 28 Sep 2021, 8:42 pm

https://youtu.be/Lytyl6c3A-A The No4-7.62 conversions just like thephs are very popular at ANZAC. This sort of outcome is probably what to expect, by an experienced shooter, with a well-above-average No4. Perhaps 3moa at 500m for a TR detail? I guess F class bags would bring that in a little?
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by No1Mk3 » 28 Sep 2021, 9:11 pm

We have shooters in the club getting less than 2 minutes at 500m with No4 (T)'s and better at 6 to 900 with original L42's all off the elbows. The same shooters can get 15" groups at 1000 yards with the 303 cartridge in No4 (T)'s and No1 HT's. I believe there really is something to the claim that the 303 is better after 200 yards, at least with issue sniper rifles in good condition. We have long known of MkVII's vertical stringing at 200 which goes away after 500, so long range scores were better than close range and at ANZAC during the McIntosh shooters like Marcus O'Dean, Daniel Cotterill etc proved this regularly, Cheers.
No1Mk3
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2090
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by in2anity » 28 Sep 2021, 9:30 pm

No1Mk3 wrote:We have shooters in the club getting less than 2 minutes at 500m with No4 (T)'s and better at 6 to 900 with original L42's all off the elbows. The same shooters can get 15" groups at 1000 yards with the 303 cartridge in No4 (T)'s and No1 HT's. I believe there really is something to the claim that the 303 is better after 200 yards, at least with issue sniper rifles in good condition. We have long known of MkVII's vertical stringing at 200 which goes away after 500, so long range scores were better than close range and at ANZAC during the McIntosh shooters like Marcus O'Dean, Daniel Cotterill etc proved this regularly, Cheers.


Hehe Marcus has shared his “convergence” theory about Lee groups “tightening” at distance with me before. I will ask him about it again come freedom day. ;)

On a good day I can go close to 2moa at 500m with my No4-223+central, but all ten into 2moa is very fatiguing with the front blade https://youtu.be/xSQ_07IYK2c definitely possible with a good l42 sort of thing, wearing a scope.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by bladeracer » 30 Sep 2021, 10:01 am

https://youtu.be/beCQGlmGpiA

Now for the Kar98k's turn :-)
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by in2anity » 30 Sep 2021, 2:26 pm

They can be very accurate, the Mausers. However, a little less wind that day though it seemed.

Speaking of Mausers, check out my latest build:

PIC4.jpg
PIC4.jpg (573.2 KiB) Viewed 6495 times


PIC8.jpg
PIC8.jpg (596.54 KiB) Viewed 6495 times


Specially built for standing offhand matches.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by bladeracer » 30 Sep 2021, 6:44 pm

in2anity wrote:They can be very accurate, the Mausers. However, a little less wind that day though it seemed.

Speaking of Mausers, check out my latest build:

PIC4.jpg


PIC8.jpg


Specially built for standing offhand matches.


Yes, it's terrific to see somebody that just loves shooting :-)

It's a beautiful M94, but I thought the premise behind service rifle competition is that rifles must be "as issued"? So why would there be any difference between a prone rifle and an offhand one?
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by in2anity » 30 Sep 2021, 10:12 pm

bladeracer wrote:
in2anity wrote:They can be very accurate, the Mausers. However, a little less wind that day though it seemed.

Speaking of Mausers, check out my latest build:

PIC4.jpg


PIC8.jpg


Specially built for standing offhand matches.


Yes, it's terrific to see somebody that just loves shooting :-)

It's a beautiful M94, but I thought the premise behind service rifle competition is that rifles must be "as issued"? So why would there be any difference between a prone rifle and an offhand one?


Not club-level with the MRCA it doesn’t - just has to be military action, military caliber, military front sight, military sling. Their rules are looser than SSAA CSD rules. This is partly because of the whole semi-ban, and partly because aquiring antique as-issued that shoot competavely is getting stupidly expensive and rare.

A lighter rifle is better for offhand for two reasons. 1) your arms don’t fatigue as fast 2) the shorter forend doesn’t catch the wind.

No5s and any carbines in general are popular for offhand for these reasons. It's also why I run a carbine for my walking rifle; a better "all round" choice IMO, that still shoots perfectly capably out to 200m
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by bladeracer » 01 Oct 2021, 5:21 pm

in2anity wrote:Not club-level with the MRCA it doesn’t - just has to be military action, military caliber, military front sight, military sling. Their rules are looser than SSAA CSD rules. This is partly because of the whole semi-ban, and partly because acquiring antique as-issued that shoot competitively is getting stupidly expensive and rare.

A lighter rifle is better for offhand for two reasons. 1) your arms don’t fatigue as fast 2) the shorter forend doesn’t catch the wind.

No5s and any carbines in general are popular for offhand for these reasons. It's also why I run a carbine for my walking rifle; a better "all round" choice IMO, that still shoots perfectly capably out to 200m


Perhaps they need to relax the competition requirements to expand the "competitiveness" to include all as-issued firearms? Makes more sense than restricting it to the handful of original firearms that happen to shoot really well, or that need modifying to be competitive.

I Googled "Service Rifle" to try to find the principle behind it and the first link that popped up was this from Mundaring. It conforms with my own view of what it should be about.
"The aim of Service Rifle is to encourage organised competitive shooting with a view towards a better knowledge of the safe handling and the proper care of service firearms. The objective is to allow anyone to get into the sport quite cheaply and compete on an equal footing."
http://mundaring-marksmen.com.au/military-rifle/

Likewise from CSD Victoria.
"Combined Services is a rifle and handgun shooting discipline that aims to encourage organised competitive shooting with a view towards a better knowledge of the safe handling and proper care of military or service firearms. The discipline encompasses more than a dozen Service Rifle and Service Pistol classes in which competitors use original or faithful reproduction rimfire, centrefire and black powder military and other service rifles, carbines, revolvers and self-loading pistols shoot for score at paper targets of different sizes and from various distances and positions."
https://www.ssaa.org.au/disciplines/all-disciplines/combined-services/

Looking at the rules I see that the Core Target has a bull of 300mm with a Centre of 150mm. Being used out to 300m gives a bull of 3.4-minutes, and a Centre of 1.7-minutes.
CSD Match 1 3P.JPG
CSD Match 1 3P.JPG (74.38 KiB) Viewed 6416 times

CSD Target 1.JPG
CSD Target 1.JPG (61.04 KiB) Viewed 6416 times

Do you know the precise dimensions of the silhouette in the bull? I'd like to make some targets up for myself.

When I was shooting IPSC I hated the influx of non-practical "race guns" that were taking over the sport. If you can't or wouldn't want to carry the pistol daily then it is not "practical" by any definition.

Agreed regarding carbines and short-rifles, though I disagree they they are range-limited :-)
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by in2anity » 02 Oct 2021, 2:29 pm

bladeracer wrote:Do you know the precise dimensions of the silhouette in the bull? I'd like to make some targets up for myself.


Sure Blade - these are the targets we use throughout the year:

figures.jpg
Service Rifle Targets
figures.jpg (421.36 KiB) Viewed 6398 times


Normally only the 4ft is on the frame, the rest are on sticks held by the markers, and are often "snapped" on and off depending on the format.

The MRCA is almost 100yrs old now, and they have adapted over the years. No point in being super strict becuase it just excludes potential members :unknown:
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 6:43 pm

His latest is the Krag and the Spanish Mauser.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg-RVfnlUhQ
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by No1Mk3 » 25 Oct 2021, 9:46 pm

G'day bladeracer,
in2anitys carbine isn't a 94 it is a Spanish M95 built from the Mauser 1893 action in 7x57 most of which were later converted to 7.62x51. I also agree that a good shooter with a good carbine is range limited for competition, one of our best shooters in CSD uses a No5 and regularly competes against Swedish m/96 users. Another brings a Nagant M44 to embarass Mauser K98k and we Swiss K31 shooters. Cheers.
No1Mk3
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2090
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by in2anity » 26 Oct 2021, 7:09 pm

No1Mk3 wrote:G'day bladeracer,
in2anitys carbine isn't a 94 it is a Spanish M95 built from the Mauser 1893 action in 7x57 most of which were later converted to 7.62x51. I also agree that a good shooter with a good carbine is range limited for competition, one of our best shooters in CSD uses a No5 and regularly competes against Swedish m/96 users. Another brings a Nagant M44 to embarass Mauser K98k and we Swiss K31 shooters. Cheers.

If I was gonna shoot a CSD champ comp (which I am considering doing), I reckon I'd run a Jungle. A good compromise weight/length for the three positions and the sights on them are better than most bolt-era milsurps. No1Mk3 could you run the Mk1 sight on it for a CSD championship shoot? Would that be permitted?
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by No1Mk3 » 26 Oct 2021, 8:08 pm

in2anity wrote:
No1Mk3 wrote:G'day bladeracer,
in2anitys carbine isn't a 94 it is a Spanish M95 built from the Mauser 1893 action in 7x57 most of which were later converted to 7.62x51. I also agree that a good shooter with a good carbine is range limited for competition, one of our best shooters in CSD uses a No5 and regularly competes against Swedish m/96 users. Another brings a Nagant M44 to embarass Mauser K98k and we Swiss K31 shooters. Cheers.

If I was gonna shoot a CSD champ comp (which I am considering doing), I reckon I'd run a Jungle. A good compromise weight/length for the three positions and the sights on them are better than most bolt-era milsurps. No1Mk3 could you run the Mk1 sight on it for a CSD championship shoot? Would that be permitted?

The Mk1 Singer was the original sight for the No5, as issued. Sometimes you can find them with the pressed metal No2. Both of mine have Singers, Cheers.
No1Mk3
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2090
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by bladeracer » 12 Nov 2021, 11:49 am

M1917 in WW1 today :-)
https://youtu.be/_geVHVVS1WQ
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by Die Judicii » 12 Nov 2021, 7:49 pm

Really enjoyed that.

The man obviously loves his work. :thumbsup:
I do not fear death itself... Only its inopportune timing!
I've come to realize that,,,,, the two most loving, loyal, and trustworthy females in my entire life were both canines.
User avatar
Die Judicii
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3706
Queensland

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by in2anity » 18 Nov 2021, 8:04 am

Pretty sure he's military trained. Furthermore, pretty sure he's been through sniper school. Big clue at 1:00 into this video: https://youtu.be/YqK6CMqGuMs?t=61
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by bladeracer » 18 Nov 2021, 8:59 am

in2anity wrote:Pretty sure he's military trained. Furthermore, pretty sure he's been through sniper school. Big clue at 1:00 into this video: https://youtu.be/YqK6CMqGuMs?t=61


He says fairly regularly that he is a sniper, and has said that he has experienced soldiering, but I haven't seen him state that he's seen combat. He appears old enough to have been there for the Russians in several places.

I'm more curious about how a Russian career soldier makes enough money to move to the US quite young, buy a patch of land, and build a very nice collection of rifles to play with - that's awesome :-)

Seems like a top bloke to me!
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by in2anity » 18 Nov 2021, 12:59 pm

bladeracer wrote:
in2anity wrote:Pretty sure he's military trained. Furthermore, pretty sure he's been through sniper school. Big clue at 1:00 into this video: https://youtu.be/YqK6CMqGuMs?t=61


He says fairly regularly that he is a sniper, and has said that he has experienced soldiering, but I haven't seen him state that he's seen combat. He appears old enough to have been there for the Russians in several places.

I'm more curious about how a Russian career soldier makes enough money to move to the US quite young, buy a patch of land, and build a very nice collection of rifles to play with - that's awesome :-)

Seems like a top bloke to me!


hehe i would say the vast majority of people who have done time in the armed forces would never have toured, let alone "combatted" :sarcasm: I know the ruskies have compulsory service for males, so perhaps he was a good enough shot to go through sniper school. That would be my guess.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by bladeracer » 18 Nov 2021, 1:25 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
in2anity wrote:Pretty sure he's military trained. Furthermore, pretty sure he's been through sniper school. Big clue at 1:00 into this video: https://youtu.be/YqK6CMqGuMs?t=61


He says fairly regularly that he is a sniper, and has said that he has experienced soldiering, but I haven't seen him state that he's seen combat. He appears old enough to have been there for the Russians in several places.

I'm more curious about how a Russian career soldier makes enough money to move to the US quite young, buy a patch of land, and build a very nice collection of rifles to play with - that's awesome :-)

Seems like a top bloke to me!


hehe i would say the vast majority of people who have done time in the armed forces would never have toured, let alone "combatted" :sarcasm: I know the ruskies have compulsory service for males, so perhaps he was a good enough shot to go through sniper school. That would be my guess.


Outside of special forces I think most troops that have been in modern combat zones probably never needed to fire a shot in anger, even when they've been on the receiving end of IED's and mortar fire. Modern combat isn't like WW2, where huge armies battle for days to take control of a high-point, or transport route. With everything happening via satellite now, it's more about high-intensity patrolling, then putting out suppressing fire while waiting for Thor's hammer to come and destroy the threat, either aircraft, armour or artillery. Then you resupply all the ammo you burned and walk in to do a body count.

We're very close to the point where we never need to send ground troops into fire anymore. Total control of an area can be achieved by a few fat blokes sitting at computers in The Pentagon on 24/7 patrol via drones. If anything pops up they direct an attack drone to obliterate it with a single round, and have another coffee.

I think Azerbaijan was a real wake up to a lot of career soldiers that maybe they need to start looking for a new trade. If somebody breaches your border nowadays, you don't send 10,000 troops in to stop them, you put a dozen drones up, wipe out the attackers and have an early lunch.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by Communism_Is_Cancer » 18 Nov 2021, 1:31 pm

Russians have been doing a fair bit of fighting in Ukraine, Caucasus and even in Syria.

Remember the so called Russian Rambo who was about to be overrun by ISIS so he called in an airstrike killing himself and the terrorists.

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/30/euro ... index.html
Communism_Is_Cancer
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 681
Queensland

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by Smiley » 18 Nov 2021, 3:19 pm

I believe he's Polish, not Russian.
Smiley
Private
Private
 
Posts: 73
Queensland

Re: Some fun with milsurps

Post by Communism_Is_Cancer » 18 Nov 2021, 3:38 pm

He may have been ethnically Polish as you claim but he was definitely in the Russia army at the time of the incident. Putin would not give a medal to someone in the Polish army.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... MSELF.html
Communism_Is_Cancer
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 681
Queensland

Next

Back to top
 
Return to Centerfire rifles