Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by bladeracer » 31 Dec 2021, 9:31 am

wanneroo wrote:
dnedative wrote:. The standard profile barrel should never be free floated either, same as a Swiss K31, take away the stocking and barrel bedding and they dont shoot for s**t.


As I learned there is quite the science around the K31 and it's bedding and contact point with the barrel. Mine was a tack driver and once I made the mistake of removing the action from the stock for cleaning it never shot as well again when I reassembled it. Next time I come across any surplus that shoots so well I'm not touching a damn thing.


Yes, I've heard too many similar stories about SMLE owners discovering that :-)

But you have to open these things up eventually to ensure there's no rust going on in hiding.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by in2anity » 31 Dec 2021, 11:12 am

I floated then bedded my No4 on the platform behind the sling swivel platform, in RTV silicone. Frustratingly it seemed the thing would behave differently under sling tension vs off the bags, which kind of invalidated the outcome. I’ve since removed that bed and moved it forward to the center platform, and second time I used acraglass to “clamp” the barrel tight. Shoots well now, but the first two are always low and to the left. The next ten go south of 2moa however, which is good for an application detail. That’s the 174gr SMK over 08 - high quality pill that one.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by northdude » 31 Dec 2021, 12:40 pm

bladeracer wrote:
northdude wrote:Thats a nice one. Ive got a 1913 bsa mkIII all matching for a steal should af bought the lithgow that was for sale at the same time as well. Mines got the lobbing sights and cut off as well. They are worth good money over here. Got a mk4 and 5 as well


These are my three.
1945 and 1943 lithgow No1MkIII* Rifles, and a 1943 Longbranch No4Mk1* Rifle.
I cycled ten rounds through all three today just to ensure they can all use the same ammo, then I fired a few rounds in each for no particular reason. The No4 shoots the best, but I think mainly because it gives me the best sight picture.


nice mine are 1913 bsa III and 1943 longbranch as well. I noticed on both your III's your cocking piece is the same as the IV the cocking piece on my III is different and no mag cut off. I've also got the bayonets for mine as well.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by bladeracer » 31 Dec 2021, 1:26 pm

in2anity wrote:I floated then bedded my No4 on the platform behind the sling swivel platform, in RTV silicone. Frustratingly it seemed the thing would behave differently under sling tension vs off the bags, which kind of invalidated the outcome. I’ve since removed that bed and moved it forward to the center platform, and second time I used acraglass to “clamp” the barrel tight. Shoots well now, but the first two are always low and to the left. The next ten go south of 2moa however, which is good for an application detail. That’s the 174gr SMK over 08 - high quality pill that one.


I really don't expect spectacular accuracy out of any .303 milsurp, they were never designed for that, and modernising them defeats the enjoyment of shooting them as they were issued. As long as you are competing against similar rifles it doesn't matter. If you're trying to be competitive against other milsurps that do shoot inherently better, like Swedes, Swiss and some of the less common Mausers, then the .303 is going to struggle, as it should.

I'm not interested in getting original milsurps to shoot especially well, I want them to shoot as they would've done in their era. I grabbed this one for the value in the sight, very handy to have if I do come across an excellent-shooting SMLE, and it came with a very cheap rifle attached. The rifle is just a sporting rifle, in the same vein as my sporterised Turk, or the sporterised Swedes that were so common in the eighties. Any "milsurpness" has already been destroyed by somebody else. This one I will be happy to scope if I decide I don't like the PH sight, or even drop her into a poly stock as a hunting rifle. If I decide I do like the sight arrangement, and I find that it does shoot more akin to a modern rifle, then I might keep it as an open-sight target rifle. But it gives me a cheap rifle option to play with the cartridge without having to mess with an original rifle.

I have plenty of modern rifles for making precise shots when I need to, straight out of the box, no messing about with bedding or modifying them to shoot acceptably :-)

I like the SMK, but they're too expensive for tossing downrange ;-)
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by bladeracer » 31 Dec 2021, 1:39 pm

northdude wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
northdude wrote:Thats a nice one. Ive got a 1913 bsa mkIII all matching for a steal should af bought the lithgow that was for sale at the same time as well. Mines got the lobbing sights and cut off as well. They are worth good money over here. Got a mk4 and 5 as well


These are my three.
1945 and 1943 lithgow No1MkIII* Rifles, and a 1943 Longbranch No4Mk1* Rifle.
I cycled ten rounds through all three today just to ensure they can all use the same ammo, then I fired a few rounds in each for no particular reason. The No4 shoots the best, but I think mainly because it gives me the best sight picture.


nice mine are 1913 bsa III and 1943 longbranch as well. I noticed on both your III's your cocking piece is the same as the IV the cocking piece on my III is different and no mag cut off. I've also got the bayonets for mine as well.


Yes, I wondered about the cocking pieces, and whether they would be originals, but I have no idea :-)

I have spikes and blades for the No4, but original No1 bayonets are too expensive for me, and they make the rifle very unwieldy in the field :-)
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by No1Mk3 » 31 Dec 2021, 3:09 pm

bladeracer siad,
"I have spikes and blades for the No4, but original No1 bayonets are too expensive for me, and they make the rifle very unwieldy in the field"

The short India Pattern No1 bayonets can still be had very cheap, look good too!
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by bladeracer » 31 Dec 2021, 3:21 pm

No1Mk3 wrote:bladeracer siad,
"I have spikes and blades for the No4, but original No1 bayonets are too expensive for me, and they make the rifle very unwieldy in the field"

The short India Pattern No1 bayonets can still be had very cheap, look good too!


Do you have a link to were I might find these cheap bayonets?

A very quick Google puts them around $250.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by Communism_Is_Cancer » 02 Jan 2022, 7:38 pm

bladeracer wrote:
No1Mk3 wrote:bladeracer siad,
"I have spikes and blades for the No4, but original No1 bayonets are too expensive for me, and they make the rifle very unwieldy in the field"

The short India Pattern No1 bayonets can still be had very cheap, look good too!


Do you have a link to were I might find these cheap bayonets?

A very quick Google puts them around $250.



I recently paid $400 for a 1945 no1 mk3 bayonet. There was a time they would give them away now they have exploded in price.

Same with lithgows. They were dirt cheap now they are well over $1500 for a good condition with matching numbers.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by bladeracer » 02 Jan 2022, 7:55 pm

$400 is a good price from what I've seen, most are more than that.
Atlanta Cutlery do replica M1907's if I decide I need one.
https://www.atlantacutlery.com/1907-bay ... ion-sheath

Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
No1Mk3 wrote:bladeracer siad,
"I have spikes and blades for the No4, but original No1 bayonets are too expensive for me, and they make the rifle very unwieldy in the field"

The short India Pattern No1 bayonets can still be had very cheap, look good too!


Do you have a link to were I might find these cheap bayonets?

A very quick Google puts them around $250.



I recently paid $400 for a 1945 no1 mk3 bayonet. There was a time they would give them away now they have exploded in price.

Same with lithgows. They were dirt cheap now they are well over $1500 for a good condition with matching numbers.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by womble » 02 Jan 2022, 8:32 pm

Lowered the standards for good condition too
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by northdude » 03 Jan 2022, 7:58 am

Over here different makers are worth different prices. Apparently sanderson are more valuble here according to my collector mate. Think I paid 200 for mine for the mkIII. Spike bayo I got for $40.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by bladeracer » 03 Jan 2022, 3:30 pm

northdude wrote:Over here different makers are worth different prices. Apparently sanderson are more valuble here according to my collector mate. Think I paid 200 for mine for the mkIII. Spike bayo I got for $40.


As with the rifles, the less common the are the more money they command.
I got one spike with the rifle, I think somebody gave me another, and my dealer gave me a No9 blade.
So far nobody has offered me a free SMLE bayonet :-)
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by northdude » 03 Jan 2022, 3:44 pm

bayonet for a no5 is the hard one to find...
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by bladeracer » 03 Jan 2022, 3:55 pm

northdude wrote:bayonet for a no5 is the hard one to find...


Luckily Atlanta do a replica though, so even if you have an original you can leave it in the safe..
https://www.atlantacutlery.com/jungle-carbine-bayonet
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by dnedative » 03 Jan 2022, 8:15 pm

bladeracer wrote:As with the rifles, the less common the are the more money they command.


I think they are generally overpriced given the numbers which exist in private hands.
A lot of people assume that they are rare and valuable because they are from WWII and price them accordingly not understanding that they pumped out 600,000 of them. They never got sold as surplus overseas so barring what they army lost, destroyed and dumped into the ocean the rest get sold locally.

Retail wise they seem to sell high but dealer to dealer and at auctions they seem to sell for what they are more accurately worth.

Rare and valuable ones are early production, rare production years, mint condition issued examples, ones issued to interesting units and anything with a XP in the serial number. From time to time you see issued rifles up for sale that clearly never got issued and slipped through some crack, they are worth the price of admission. Plenty of refurbished ones that pretend to be something they are not that people unfortunately fall for.

Better off with a WWI production rifle even if its beat up and has a average bore, its a far more interesting gun than a 1945 production one that never went anywhere aside from maybe a cadet range.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by bladeracer » 03 Jan 2022, 8:18 pm

Don't discount the "collectors" that are actually hoarders, each sitting on 100+ bayonets and declaring on forums that they never see them online anymore, and when they do the prices are stupid...all because they are the d**kheads hoarding basements full of them.

dnedative wrote:
bladeracer wrote:As with the rifles, the less common the are the more money they command.


I think they are generally overpriced given the numbers which exist in private hands.
A lot of people assume that they are rare and valuable because they are from WWII and price them accordingly not understanding that they pumped out 600,000 of them. They never got sold as surplus overseas so barring what they army lost, destroyed and dumped into the ocean the rest get sold locally.

Retail wise they seem to sell high but dealer to dealer and at auctions they seem to sell for what they are more accurately worth.

Rare and valuable ones are early production, rare production years, mint condition issued examples, ones issued to interesting units and anything with a XP in the serial number. From time to time you see issued rifles up for sale that clearly never got issued and slipped through some crack, they are worth the price of admission. Plenty of refurbished ones that pretend to be something they are not that people unfortunately fall for.

Better off with a WWI production rifle even if its beat up and has a average bore, its a far more interesting gun than a 1945 production one that never went anywhere aside from maybe a cadet range.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by bladeracer » 03 Jan 2022, 8:20 pm

I talked to a collector locally a couple years ago that claimed he had over 100 SMLE's.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by dnedative » 03 Jan 2022, 8:39 pm

Comes full circle when they kick the bucket in the end, the kids generally dont want 300 rifles, 4 tons of old ammunition and 600 bayonets so either a dealer buys the lot of it or it goes to auction. A lot of it is only "valuable" to bespoke collectors trying to complete collections looking for issued rifles nobody else gives a s**t about otherwise.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by bladeracer » 03 Jan 2022, 8:42 pm

dnedative wrote:Comes full circle when they kick the bucket in the end, the kids generally dont want 300 rifles, 4 tons of old ammunition and 600 bayonets so either a dealer buys the lot of it or it goes to auction. A lot of it is only "valuable" to bespoke collectors trying to complete collections looking for issued rifles nobody else gives a s**t about otherwise.


True, if it doesn't get passed out to his collector mates.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by No1Mk3 » 03 Jan 2022, 10:24 pm

dnedative wrote:Comes full circle when they kick the bucket in the end, the kids generally dont want 300 rifles, 4 tons of old ammunition and 600 bayonets so either a dealer buys the lot of it or it goes to auction. A lot of it is only "valuable" to bespoke collectors trying to complete collections looking for issued rifles nobody else gives a s**t about otherwise.


This is true, but I don't collect for others enjoyment only my own. Much of what I have, except for bayonets, is the result of picking up items at auction or collectors meetings from deceased estates. My latest Ishapore 2A1 came that way. The fact is it is not collectors like me who are driving the prices but the casual buyer who really has no idea of what he is buying and simply "wants one", and also has no idea of the market. The other driver is unscrupulous dealers falsely advertiising items at high prices then claiming to have sold them and so making others feel their items are also worth that much. As a collector, especially of bayonets and I have over 700 all dated to a single century from 1850 to 1950, I have a good knowledge of where to find common items like Pattern 1907's and S84/98 etc and what they should sell for. Now the P 07, or No1, has increased by 150 to 250% in the last 2 years by the false ad/sale method I mentioned and now average $300 or so, but I can still find them for $200 or less like the 3 I bought 6 months ago for $80 each, same with the No5, northdude thinks they're hard to find, but I know of at least 9 for sale right now but they are $400 to $600. The only bayonet that hasn't changed much in price is the Lithgow hook which still hangs around $2500, although I have seen some very spurious ads wanting $4000. Really knowing the market is how you avoid paying way over the odds for anything, my latest point is a Portuguese Guedes, what would you pay for one? Cheers.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by Communism_Is_Cancer » 04 Jan 2022, 6:28 am

Things started getting higher when the 100 year anniversary of Gallipoli happened in 2015. Everyone started to want a Lithgow.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by northdude » 04 Jan 2022, 8:04 am

No1Mk3 wrote:
dnedative wrote:Comes full circle when they kick the bucket in the end, the kids generally dont want 300 rifles, 4 tons of old ammunition and 600 bayonets so either a dealer buys the lot of it or it goes to auction. A lot of it is only "valuable" to bespoke collectors trying to complete collections looking for issued rifles nobody else gives a s**t about otherwise.


This is true, but I don't collect for others enjoyment only my own. Much of what I have, except for bayonets, is the result of picking up items at auction or collectors meetings from deceased estates. My latest Ishapore 2A1 came that way. The fact is it is not collectors like me who are driving the prices but the casual buyer who really has no idea of what he is buying and simply "wants one", and also has no idea of the market. The other driver is unscrupulous dealers falsely advertiising items at high prices then claiming to have sold them and so making others feel their items are also worth that much. As a collector, especially of bayonets and I have over 700 all dated to a single century from 1850 to 1950, I have a good knowledge of where to find common items like Pattern 1907's and S84/98 etc and what they should sell for. Now the P 07, or No1, has increased by 150 to 250% in the last 2 years by the false ad/sale method I mentioned and now average $300 or so, but I can still find them for $200 or less like the 3 I bought 6 months ago for $80 each, same with the No5, northdude thinks they're hard to find, but I know of at least 9 for sale right now but they are $400 to $600. The only bayonet that hasn't changed much in price is the Lithgow hook which still hangs around $2500, although I have seen some very spurious ads wanting $4000. Really knowing the market is how you avoid paying way over the odds for anything, my latest point is a Portuguese Guedes, what would you pay for one? Cheers.


Do you know of any in nz?
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by dnedative » 04 Jan 2022, 8:23 pm

No1Mk3 wrote:
dnedative wrote:Comes full circle when they kick the bucket in the end, the kids generally dont want 300 rifles, 4 tons of old ammunition and 600 bayonets so either a dealer buys the lot of it or it goes to auction. A lot of it is only "valuable" to bespoke collectors trying to complete collections looking for issued rifles nobody else gives a s**t about otherwise.


The other driver is unscrupulous dealers falsely advertiising items at high prices then claiming to have sold them and so making others feel their items are also worth that much



https://www.ozgunsales.com/listing/1010 ... ar98k.html

Not a bad rifle if it was $1000
but its been imported from Germany and its one of 415,000 made that year,
Oh, and its been re-barreled in .308W, action linished and re-blued, its got a lot of number on the parts except they are all different and based off the sling swivels it probably got issued to the police or post office but if your keen, $4500.

Same story with Arisakas that still have the imperial property stamp and dealers selling the story that it was absolutely a battlefield capture and asking triple what one without it goes for. The Japanese only scrubbed the ones they had their hands on, in Japan, the other 3,000,000 rifles that they left behind in the Pacific were gathered up and stored, burnt for firewood, melted for scrap metal or dumped in the ocean but f***ing plenty survived.

Buy the gun not the story unless there is legitimate documentation or history you can circumstance.
If its a battlefield capture unless you have papers for it or some sort of really good documented history then its just not.
Same with a SMLE "it was at Gallipoli", if it's a beat up 1914 Lithgow that you bought out of Turkey then I'll believe it but otherwise its speculation.
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by Border_Bloke » 08 Jan 2022, 3:43 pm

Ah, this bought back memories.
I bought a heavy barrel No1 MKIII with a vernier sight back in the 1980's for the novelty to see how it went compared to my Omark 7.62 at the local full bore range. The barrel on the 303 looked OK but It didn't shoot well at all - about 5 MOA with Mark VII surplus ammo, plus the bolt head guide would pop out of the rails if you cycled the action too quickly. I think I paid $90 for it at the time (from the trading post). My Omark 7.62 would do under 1/2 MOA.

With the vernier sight, you either carried a card or just remembered how many minutes / clicks to move the sights from one range to the next. We shot 300, 500, 600, 800 & 900 yards. 7.62 ammo was 30 cents a round through the VRA head stamped MF (made in Maribyrnong Vic).
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Re: Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

Post by in2anity » 08 Jan 2022, 9:45 pm

The true value of something is what the market is willing to pay.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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