Lithgow 1945 No1MkIII*

[bladeracer]

Finally got my permit approved, the longest one ever. Lodged November 8th, got the letter giving additional genuine reason (more than 15 CatB) back to them December 1st, permit came through midday today.

The Parker Hale aperture is set very high so I suspect it's zeroed somewhere past 500m.
The barrel is floated but I don't know yet if it's original or an aftermarket replacement. There are no marks on the barrel that might indicate a leaf sight has ever been installed.

If anybody has seen this rifle before I'd love to know what it's been set up for.

[bladeracer]

Could it be a Star of David on the stock?

[dnedative]

Lithgow heavy barrel, 1962
Bored out nose cap to suit the free floated barrel
Draws will probably be copper blocks fixed to the forestock
Parker-Hale PH5A sight

Dunno about the star, these things have long interesting lives in many hands.
The zero of the sight will depend on what front sight is fitted, there was a procedure to do it with the factory rear sight but thats long gone so strip a few clips into the magazine and see what it does. Regardless of the front sight you should be able to zero it to as low as 50m without issue. Vernier scale is a good thing. They are truly excellent sights, 1/4 MOA clicks from memory or something very very close to that.

Some view these as a waste of a good rifle but they are a part of sporting history.
Most of them shoot really well for what they are.

[in2anity]

Could be a shooter. How is it bedded blade?

[bladeracer]

Lithgow heavy barrel, 1962
Bored out nose cap to suit the free floated barrel
Draws will probably be copper blocks fixed to the forestock
Parker-Hale PH5A sight

Dunno about the star, these things have long interesting lives in many hands.
The zero of the sight will depend on what front sight is fitted, there was a procedure to do it with the factory rear sight but thats long gone so strip a few clips into the magazine and see what it does. Regardless of the front sight you should be able to zero it to as low as 50m without issue. Vernier scale is a good thing. They are truly excellent sights, 1/4 MOA clicks from memory or something very very close to that.

Some view these as a waste of a good rifle but they are a part of sporting history.
Most of them shoot really well for what they are.

Thanks dnedative, I have an unmolested Lithgow No1Mk3* as well. I only grabbed this one because of the mods thinking it must've been built because it's a good shooter. Hopefully I'll get a chance to find out very soon.

I should be able to measure the sights to work out where it's zeroed currently.

[bladeracer]

Could be a shooter. How is it bedded blade?

I haven't had it apart, and have no reason to strip it immediately, so any bedding secrets will have to wait to be revealed. As far as I'm aware you're not allowed to alter the bedding for most Service classes so it should be stock. But I don't know what classes it was built for, or if it was. It might've just been built for fun. The barrel is fully floated, so any bedding will only be around the action, and I don't know if any classes allow floating the barrel either.

[No1Mk3]

Lithgow heavy barrel, 1962
Bored out nose cap to suit the free floated barrel
Draws will probably be copper blocks fixed to the forestock
Parker-Hale PH5A sight

Dunno about the star, these things have long interesting lives in many hands.
The zero of the sight will depend on what front sight is fitted, there was a procedure to do it with the factory rear sight but thats long gone so strip a few clips into the magazine and see what it does. Regardless of the front sight you should be able to zero it to as low as 50m without issue. Vernier scale is a good thing. They are truly excellent sights, 1/4 MOA clicks from memory or something very very close to that.

Some view these as a waste of a good rifle but they are a part of sporting history.
Most of them shoot really well for what they are.

Thanks No1Mk3, I have an unmolested Lithgow No1Mk3* as well. I only grabbed this one because of the mods thinking it must've been built because it's a good shooter. Hopefully I'll get a chance to find out very soon.

I should be able to measure the sights to work out where it's zeroed currently.

G'day bladeracer,
dnedative appreciates your thanks, but may be a little confused , As for the elevation the 5 series were 1/2 minute vertical clicks. One common "trick" I've seen with Range Rifles is to fit an elastrator ring to the barrel at the nose cap the idea being to dampen whip, I don't know if it works just seems to me to delete the purpose of free floating in the 1st place, still, 1 of my Range Rifles has it and shoots well so I don't interfere. VRA comps were often 600 & 900 yards, 1000 yards at the Queens etc but for Service, these are H Class (accurized/modified) and normally shoot 500m application.Cheers.

[northdude]

Thats a nice one. Ive got a 1913 bsa mkIII all matching for a steal should af bought the lithgow that was for sale at the same time as well. Mines got the lobbing sights and cut off as well. They are worth good money over here. Got a mk4 and 5 as well

[womble]

I have zero knowledge, but i think the star on the buttstock of a Lithgow would be very unique.
And i dont think its the star of Texas.
What conflict would you attribute that to ?

[Bugman]

This as certainly got my interest, BR. I don't know much about the old 303, but have a healthy respect as to where, why and how they came to be. Hope you get all the info your after. Maybe contact the Small Arms museum in Lithgow to get some more info on your rifle.

[Wm.Traynor]

G'day bladeracer,
dnedative appreciates your thanks, but may be a little confused , As for the elevation the 5 series were 1/2 minute vertical clicks. One common "trick" I've seen with Range Rifles is to fit an elastrator ring to the barrel at the nose cap the idea being to dampen whip, I don't know if it works just seems to me to delete the purpose of free floating in the 1st place, still, 1 of my Range Rifles has it and shoots well so I don't interfere. VRA comps were often 600 & 900 yards, 1000 yards at the Queens etc but for Service, these are H Class (accurized/modified) and normally shoot 500m application.Cheers.

It seems those 303 blokes could adapt all kinds of things to suit their purpose. One of them told me about "Rubber-nosing" the SMLE with an O-ring from the rears suspension of a Holden

[wanneroo]

Very nice looking rifle.

[northdude]

Looks like its been converted to a range rifle at some stage. Heavy barrel? I think thats what the h stamp is. They certainly have a presence about these type of rifles..if only it could talk. I used to have a book on what the markings ment somewhere

[dnedative]

Could be a shooter. How is it bedded blade?

I haven't had it apart, and have no reason to strip it immediately, so any bedding secrets will have to wait to be revealed. As far as I'm aware you're not allowed to alter the bedding for most Service classes so it should be stock. But I don't know what classes it was built for, or if it was. It.might've just been built for fun. The barrel is fully floated, so any bedding will only be around the action, and I don't know if.any classes allow floating the barrel either.

Would put money on it having the copper blocks fitted.
Draws on SMLE's are nearly always rooted or in poor shape, that, steady diets of cordite ammunition with poor maintenance and the confusion around what that springy thing that pushes on the barrel is supposed to do leads to a lot of them shooting patters not groups. The standard profile barrel should never be free floated either, same as a Swiss K31, take away the stocking and barrel bedding and they dont shoot for s**t.

[No1Mk3]

Could be a shooter. How is it bedded blade?

The standard profile barrel should never be free floated either, same as a Swiss K31, take away the stocking and barrel bedding and they dont shoot for s**t.

Which is why both my Fulton Regulated No4's have cork bedding pads along the barrel, pity they've perished though more work to do!

[in2anity]

Yes if it’s free floated, it’s not “as issued”. And of course, the PH makes it also fall under “modified”. But rifles like this were also once used for fullbore as well as “modified” service rifle categories, if the club differentiates. There are various bedding methods that were employed including the Beaton, Altman and Pitman methods.

86A0E284-37F2-43AE-836A-0E018A2A9601.jpeg (93.57 KiB) Viewed 5046 times

Fulton and and Parker Hale target rifles had upward pressure. Parker Hale rifles have 12 - 15 lbs up pressure at the muzzle to get off the bed, Fultons with H barrels just 2-3lbs.

Lots of these kinds of rifles in our club are free floated with a rubber grommet at the nose being the only bedding past the knox form. Beware of the whip - just because it floats inside the stock doesn’t mean it won’t contact under recoil…

[bladeracer]

Lithgow heavy barrel, 1962
Bored out nose cap to suit the free floated barrel
Draws will probably be copper blocks fixed to the forestock
Parker-Hale PH5A sight

Dunno about the star, these things have long interesting lives in many hands.
The zero of the sight will depend on what front sight is fitted, there was a procedure to do it with the factory rear sight but thats long gone so strip a few clips into the magazine and see what it does. Regardless of the front sight you should be able to zero it to as low as 50m without issue. Vernier scale is a good thing. They are truly excellent sights, 1/4 MOA clicks from memory or something very very close to that.

Some view these as a waste of a good rifle but they are a part of sporting history.
Most of them shoot really well for what they are.

Thanks dnedative
Was the heavy barrel a factory fitment, for any particular reason?

The sight is currently positioned at about 860yd, but I have no idea what load it was set up for. I'm going to take some measurements to compare to my original rifle.

[No1Mk3]

G'day bladeracer,
Depending when the rifle was last used it was likely set up for Mk VII as Dept of Defence supplied ammo and everyone had to use it, no handloading allowed back then. After the change to 7.62 DoD supplied ammo until the late '70's or early '80's, I can't recall when it stopped but handloading took off then. Lithgow started fitting H barrels for Rifle Club shooters in the mid 1930's and also set up a few for Service competition shooters. Later rifles were set up by their owners often in conjunction with known T/R builders or Club Armourers, Cheers.

[Larry]

My understanding is that most of the H barrels were fitted in the early 50s and only for the fullbore shooters not a military application. The sights are most likely zeroed at 500 yrds a common FB zero still to this day for TR shooters. The sights are most likely 1/2 MOA increments.

[bladeracer]

Lithgow heavy barrel, 1962
Bored out nose cap to suit the free floated barrel
Draws will probably be copper blocks fixed to the forestock
Parker-Hale PH5A sight

Dunno about the star, these things have long interesting lives in many hands.
The zero of the sight will depend on what front sight is fitted, there was a procedure to do it with the factory rear sight but thats long gone so strip a few clips into the magazine and see what it does. Regardless of the front sight you should be able to zero it to as low as 50m without issue. Vernier scale is a good thing. They are truly excellent sights, 1/4 MOA clicks from memory or something very very close to that.

Some view these as a waste of a good rifle but they are a part of sporting history.
Most of them shoot really well for what they are.

Thanks No1Mk3, I have an unmolested Lithgow No1Mk3* as well. I only grabbed this one because of the mods thinking it must've been built because it's a good shooter. Hopefully I'll get a chance to find out very soon.

I should be able to measure the sights to work out where it's zeroed currently.

G'day bladeracer,
dnedative appreciates your thanks, but may be a little confused , As for the elevation the 5 series were 1/2 minute vertical clicks. One common "trick" I've seen with Range Rifles is to fit an elastrator ring to the barrel at the nose cap the idea being to dampen whip, I don't know if it works just seems to me to delete the purpose of free floating in the 1st place, still, 1 of my Range Rifles has it and shoots well so I don't interfere. VRA comps were often 600 & 900 yards, 1000 yards at the Queens etc but for Service, these are H Class (accurized/modified) and normally shoot 500m application.Cheers.

I read up today about the clicks being half-minute.
I also realised that it is not zeroed at that distance at all, the sight needs to be wound up to at least 800yds to remove the bolt for cleaning - what a royal pain in the bum that must be

Boresighting the rifle, then looking down the sights (set to 875yd), puts both SMLE's point of aim low at 50m. But the 1943 OEM sight is about 650mm (45MoA) low, the 1945 PH5A is only about 350mm low (24MoA). I see that you zero the PH5A to your load, then adjust the scale to match, so the scale doesn't necessarily relate to any actual distances. My guess is the previous owner was using a reduced load for it.

[bladeracer]

Thats a nice one. Ive got a 1913 bsa mkIII all matching for a steal should af bought the lithgow that was for sale at the same time as well. Mines got the lobbing sights and cut off as well. They are worth good money over here. Got a mk4 and 5 as well

These are my three.
1945 and 1943 lithgow No1MkIII* Rifles, and a 1943 Longbranch No4Mk1* Rifle.
I cycled ten rounds through all three today just to ensure they can all use the same ammo, then I fired a few rounds in each for no particular reason. The No4 shoots the best, but I think mainly because it gives me the best sight picture.

[bladeracer]

I have zero knowledge, but i think the star on the buttstock of a Lithgow would be very unique.
And i dont think its the star of Texas.
What conflict would you attribute that to ?

It wouldn't surprise me if it got given to Israel after 1948 as a lot of different smallarms went there. Whether it might've seen action I have no idea, but there has never been any shortage of conflict there.

Or it could be an unrelated stamping, or perhaps even a personal embellishment.

[bladeracer]

Looks like its been converted to a range rifle at some stage. Heavy barrel? I think thats what the h stamp is. They certainly have a presence about these type of rifles..if only it could talk. I used to have a book on what the markings ment somewhere

Yes, definitely a competition build.
There can't be all that many like this in Victoria that aren't being used at ranges. I had hoped somebody might recognize her and perhaps I could learn what load she shoots.

[bladeracer]

Could be a shooter. How is it bedded blade?

I haven't had it apart, and have no reason to strip it immediately, so any bedding secrets will have to wait to be revealed. As far as I'm aware you're not allowed to alter the bedding for most Service classes so it should be stock. But I don't know what classes it was built for, or if it was. It.might've just been built for fun. The barrel is fully floated, so any bedding will only be around the action, and I don't know if.any classes allow floating the barrel either.

Would put money on it having the copper blocks fitted.
Draws on SMLE's are nearly always rooted or in poor shape, that, steady diets of cordite ammunition with poor maintenance and the confusion around what that springy thing that pushes on the barrel is supposed to do leads to a lot of them shooting patters not groups. The standard profile barrel should never be free floated either, same as a Swiss K31, take away the stocking and barrel bedding and they dont shoot for s**t.

There is no way to tell though without pulling the action out of the wood is there?

I tend to agree, if it was designed to be pressure bedded it should probably be left that way. The few rounds I put through her today didn't impress me, but I won't know if she shoots well until I get a chance to do some proper testing. The PH5A aperture doesn't give me as clean a sight picture as my No4 rifle.

[bladeracer]

Yes if it’s free floated, it’s not “as issued”. And of course, the PH makes it also fall under “modified”. But rifles like this were also once used for fullbore as well as “modified” service rifle categories, if the club differentiates. There are various bedding methods that were employed including the Beaton, Altman and Pitman methods.

86A0E284-37F2-43AE-836A-0E018A2A9601.jpeg

Fulton and and Parker Hale target rifles had upward pressure. Parker Hale rifles have 12 - 15 lbs up pressure at the muzzle to get off the bed, Fultons with H barrels just 2-3lbs.

Lots of these kinds of rifles in our club are free floated with a rubber grommet at the nose being the only bedding past the knox form. Beware of the whip - just because it floats inside the stock doesn’t mean it won’t contact under recoil…

When I have cause to open her up I'll take photos, but I'm sure she's not going to be "as issued" under there.

Yes, the barrel certainly moves freely within the stock, and can easily be pressed from one side to the other of the bored-out nose-cap. The barrel seems far more flexible than I'd expect in a hunting rifle. I've never mounted one of my Rugers in a vice and measured how far I can push the muzzle, but I'd be amazed if they flexed as much as this does.

Whether I can get her to group decently is going to be a whole different matter

[bladeracer]

My understanding is that most of the H barrels were fitted in the early 50s and only for the fullbore shooters not a military application. The sights are most likely zeroed at 500 yrds a common FB zero still to this day for TR shooters. The sights are most likely 1/2 MOA increments.

That's what I thought too, but I don't know if maybe they used some H barrels during FTR's just because they had stock.

Comparing the sights with the standard rifle I think the 875yd position on the PH5A is closer to the 500yd position of the standard sight, so that sounds about right. I guess the previous owner preferred a reduced load which throws the sight markings out the window.

Both rifles have front sights 140-thou tall, but with both sights set to 875yd, the line of sight looking through the sights is .595" above the bridge on the original and only .555" on the PH5A rifle, so point of impact is going to be closer to 500m.

[bladeracer]

I don't think there's any way to determine how long since she's been fired, but she's pretty clean, and wet with oil.

G'day bladeracer,
Depending when the rifle was last used it was likely set up for Mk VII as Dept of Defence supplied ammo and everyone had to use it, no handloading allowed back then. After the change to 7.62 DoD supplied ammo until the late '70's or early '80's, I can't recall when it stopped but handloading took off then. Lithgow started fitting H barrels for Rifle Club shooters in the mid 1930's and also set up a few for Service competition shooters. Later rifles were set up by their owners often in conjunction with known T/R builders or Club Armourers, Cheers.

[dnedative]

Well setup SMLE range rifle with a good heavy barrel will outshoot any issued No4 but all bets are off when you start tweaking those in comparison.
The P-H rear sight is threaded for different size apertures or if your fancy, one with multiple (PH60) so it might be a simple matter of getting one in a more suitable size. Otherwise it should be very similar to a No4 with the good milled rear sight.

I would pull it out of the stock, check its all there and ok, re-fit it and make sure the action screws are tight.
Jacketed ammunition wise, they all seem to shoot the 174gr Sierra HPBT well. If your not hand loading, the PPU 174gr FMJ is decent as its essentially MkVIIz thanks to some third world counties in the not so distant past needing ammunition for a bunch of old bren and vickers guns still in their inventory lol

[wanneroo]

. The standard profile barrel should never be free floated either, same as a Swiss K31, take away the stocking and barrel bedding and they dont shoot for s**t.

As I learned there is quite the science around the K31 and it's bedding and contact point with the barrel. Mine was a tack driver and once I made the mistake of removing the action from the stock for cleaning it never shot as well again when I reassembled it. Next time I come across any surplus that shoots so well I'm not touching a damn thing.

[Larry]

I read up today about the clicks being half-minute.
I also realised that it is not zeroed at that distance at all, the sight needs to be wound up to at least 800yds to remove the bolt for cleaning - what a royal pain in the bum that must be

To remove the bolt take off the complete rear sight just unscrew the small lever type fasteners on the side plate. It wont change your zero. All the TR shooters keep their sights separate from the gun as they are quite delicate.