New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bladeracer » 18 Jan 2022, 4:51 pm

boingk wrote:Nice and light. From memory my plain-jane American Ranch* 308 is 7lb unloaded with the standard 4 round rotary mag and 4-12x40 Leupold up top.

My Citadel Levtac '92 in 44 mag is 5lb 12oz with a Burris RT1 red dot up top, heh.

- boingk


Your Ranch Rifle in .308 is far more versatile than the Mini Howa though.
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by Bill » 18 Jan 2022, 5:58 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Bill wrote:Wow I was just checking out the new 2022 LSI Howa range of rifles when I noticed they have listed a new Super Lite rifle with a new Action in between the Howa Mini and the Standard Short Action with only a weight of 4lbs 7oz.

Way to go Legacy Sports International, Id love to see this sold as an action only, be a great donor for a few new builds :thumbsup: :drinks:

https://www.legacysports.com/super-lite/


I'm not seeing anything about a "new" shorter action, this is the standard Mini-Action.

Looking at the Howa site though, the Carbon Stalker weighs 2100gm in the Mini Action, in the Short Action it's 2800gm, which is what this rifle appears to be in 6.5CM/.308.
The advertised "4lb 7oz" is for the Mini Action, it's 85gm lighter than the Carbon Stalker but still stuck with the lightweight chamberings.


Bladerace have another look at the Catalog, this isn't the standard mini action, I can tell by the photo its longer, I have had 3 Howa Mini action over the last 7 years and you can't fit anything longer than a Grendel case in em. You can see the receiver profile looks like the Howa mini so its clearly a slimmed down SA. 4 shot capacity in the flush fitting mag too. 4lbs 7oz is 2.01kg :thumbsup:

This is what LSI says of the new Super Lite ' This new offering has a unique Howa Action build that is in between the popular Howa Mini Action and standard Short Action platform ' :drinks:

https://shootingsurplus.com/legacy-spor ... yptek-obs/
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by Oldbloke » 18 Jan 2022, 6:57 pm

bladeracer wrote:
I'm not seeing anything about a "new" shorter action, this is the standard Mini-Action.

Looking at the Howa site though, the Carbon Stalker weighs 2100gm in the Mini Action, in the Short Action it's 2800gm, which is what this rifle appears to be in 6.5CM/.308.
The advertised "4lb 7oz" is for the Mini Action, it's 85gm lighter than the Carbon Stalker but still stuck with the lightweight chamberings.


Makes more sense to me. That is 800gr heavier. And much closer to the norm
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jan 2022, 7:54 pm

If it's chambered in .308 or 6.5CM is _must_ be at least 2.800" to be able to feed the cartridges through it - a standard short-action, same as every other short-action.
The Mini-action is AR15 length, 2.260".


Bill wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Bill wrote:Wow I was just checking out the new 2022 LSI Howa range of rifles when I noticed they have listed a new Super Lite rifle with a new Action in between the Howa Mini and the Standard Short Action with only a weight of 4lbs 7oz.

Way to go Legacy Sports International, Id love to see this sold as an action only, be a great donor for a few new builds :thumbsup: :drinks:

https://www.legacysports.com/super-lite/


I'm not seeing anything about a "new" shorter action, this is the standard Mini-Action.

Looking at the Howa site though, the Carbon Stalker weighs 2100gm in the Mini Action, in the Short Action it's 2800gm, which is what this rifle appears to be in 6.5CM/.308.
The advertised "4lb 7oz" is for the Mini Action, it's 85gm lighter than the Carbon Stalker but still stuck with the lightweight chamberings.


Bladerace have another look at the Catalog, this isn't the standard mini action, I can tell by the photo its longer, I have had 3 Howa Mini action over the last 7 years and you can't fit anything longer than a Grendel case in em. You can see the receiver profile looks like the Howa mini so its clearly a slimmed down SA. 4 shot capacity in the flush fitting mag too. 4lbs 7oz is 2.01kg :thumbsup:

This is what LSI says of the new Super Lite ' This new offering has a unique Howa Action build that is in between the popular Howa Mini Action and standard Short Action platform ' :drinks:

https://shootingsurplus.com/legacy-spor ... yptek-obs/
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by Oldbloke » 20 Jan 2022, 9:20 pm

I'm with blade racer. If its less than 2.8kg the barrel must be made of aluminium. Lol

They can only make barrels and actions so light or thin and still maintain a safety margin.

Just got to ask your self why haven't they done it in the past.

With very high grade steel you might reduce it to, say 2.6kg, but that would be it I think. And how whippy would the barrel be?
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bigpete » 20 Jan 2022, 9:46 pm

Oldbloke wrote:I'm with blade racer. If its less than 2.8kg the barrel must be made of aluminium. Lol

They can only make barrels and actions so light or thin and still maintain a safety margin.

Just got to ask your self why haven't they done it in the past.

With very high grade steel you might reduce it to, say 2.6kg, but that would be it I think. And how whippy would the barrel be?


Pretty sure it has been done in the past,just not as affordably
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by Oldbloke » 20 Jan 2022, 10:57 pm

Could be. But some specialised steel that takes 3 times as long to machine.

In the end physics would dictate.
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2022, 1:02 pm

Oldbloke wrote:I'm with blade racer. If its less than 2.8kg the barrel must be made of aluminium. Lol

They can only make barrels and actions so light or thin and still maintain a safety margin.

Just got to ask your self why haven't they done it in the past.

With very high grade steel you might reduce it to, say 2.6kg, but that would be it I think. And how whippy would the barrel be?


Some years ago I saw a product that lets you turn the outer barrel profile down, a lot, then slide an aluminium tube over the entire barrel, and fill with an aluminium-impregnated resin. Certainly doesn't seem to have caught on though. It was fairly expensive even back then.

The only really feasible way to get an ultra-light barrel still is to shorten it as far as possible. Cutting 100mm off a normal barrel reduces weight by something from 100gm to 140gm, depending on how big the hole is in the middle.
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2022, 1:18 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Could be. But some specialised steel that takes 3 times as long to machine.

In the end physics would dictate.


There is titanium, but it does take more effort to machine, and only saves one-third of the weight, and fatigues very quickly so has no longevity.

I'd like to see somebody do a steel bolt head, but with an aluminium bolt body. The same could be done with the receiver, steel lug recess and the rest aluminium.
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bigpete » 21 Jan 2022, 3:47 pm

Have you guys not seen the carbon wrapped barrels?
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2022, 3:58 pm

bigpete wrote:Have you guys not seen the carbon wrapped barrels?


Yep, and how much lighter are they...
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bigpete » 21 Jan 2022, 4:11 pm

A s**t load judging the ones I've handled
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2022, 4:21 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bigpete wrote:Have you guys not seen the carbon wrapped barrels?


Yep, and how much lighter are they...


https://www.fieldandstream.com/advantages-real-and-imagined-carbon-fiber-barrels/
As much as a third lighter barrel.

Can anybody get this to work?
https://mcgowenbarrel.com/barrel-weight-estimator/

A 19mm-diameter steel bar 550mm long is 1220gm.
Bore a 7.62mm hole down its length and you lose 200gms.
So a 19mm bull-barrel 22" long weighs about 1000gm, less anything removed by the chamber and threading.
A carbon barrel will save about 330gm of that.
Not very much in the overall rifle, perhaps about 10% of the total mass.

But if you cut that 550mm barrel down to 400mm, it'll weigh around 690gm with the hole down it's length, saving 310gm, and will be stiffer.
Last edited by bladeracer on 21 Jan 2022, 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2022, 4:27 pm

bigpete wrote:A s**t load judging the ones I've handled


Feel is subjective though. It may "feel" lighter without being any lighter at all, depending on balance and design. Something easier to grasp feels lighter than something that is awkward to carry.

Near as I can tell, a carbon-wrapped barrel _might_ save about 300gms in a 22" .30-cal hunting rifle.
Which you could also save by shortening the standard steel barrel by 150mm.

If you simply removed the barrel entirely, the remaining rifle would still be heavier than the weight claimed in that falsely-worded advertisement.
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by Oldbloke » 21 Jan 2022, 5:30 pm

And the reason most are the weight they are is because of,,,,,,,,,,,physics & cost.
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2022, 5:35 pm

Oldbloke wrote:And the reason most are the weight they are is because of,,,,,,,,,,,physics & cost.


Yep! A "4lb 7oz short-action" would be decades ahead of the race, and every forum and website with anything to do with firearms would be front-paging it...
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by Bill » 21 Jan 2022, 6:05 pm

bladerace alot of weight can be removed from a rifle but it adds to the cost, I had no trouble building a SA 260 rem almost a decade ago that came in at 4lb 10oz and my rifle still had a remington mountain 21.5inch contoured barrel. I could have lightened it even more but gunsmithing costs start to outweigh the value. Carbon fibre stocks and plastic magazine have also come along way in the last few years esp in mass produced rifle. It would appear that Howa took on the challenge and are resetting the bar :drinks:
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by Oldbloke » 21 Jan 2022, 7:04 pm

Would kick like a mule
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2022, 7:16 pm

Bill wrote:bladerace alot of weight can be removed from a rifle but it adds to the cost, I had no trouble building a SA 260 rem almost a decade ago that came in at 4lb 10oz and my rifle still had a remington mountain 21.5inch contoured barrel. I could have lightened it even more but gunsmithing costs start to outweigh the value. Carbon fibre stocks and plastic magazine have also come along way in the last few years esp in mass produced rifle. It would appear that Howa took on the challenge and are resetting the bar :drinks:


Nothing you have posted here indicates Howa having done anything at all, they have not designed an action in between the Mini and the Short, and they do not have a 4lb 7oz short-action. Further, nothing anywhere on the internet agrees with your view - you are the only person on the planet that believes this...
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bigpete » 21 Jan 2022, 7:51 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Would kick like a mule

Pfft
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by Bill » 21 Jan 2022, 8:52 pm

bladeracer why would anything be on the internet ?? theyve only just announced the new Super lite platform, you seem to be offend by the concept of Howa offering something other manufacturers arent making. I'm a JDM kinda guy and Id assume you have a thing for Hondas by your name..... :drinks:

We are excited to announce one of our latest products of 2022 - the Howa Super Lite!
This new offering has a unique Howa Action build that is in between the popular Howa Mini Action and standard Short Action platform.
Go to our website for more information - https://www.legacysports.com/super-lite/
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bladeracer » 21 Jan 2022, 9:14 pm

Bill wrote:bladeracer why would anything be on the internet ?? theyve only just announced the new Super lite platform, you seem to be offend by the concept of Howa offering something other manufacturers arent making. I'm a JDM kinda guy and Id assume you have a thing for Hondas by your name..... :drinks:

We are excited to announce one of our latest products of 2022 - the Howa Super Lite!
This new offering has a unique Howa Action build that is in between the popular Howa Mini Action and standard Short Action platform.
Go to our website for more information - https://www.legacysports.com/super-lite/


Offended?
I would be bloody impressed, as would everybody else, if it were true - it is not.
It's a very poorly-worded advert that appears to claim the weight of the mini-action as being available in the .308/6.5CM short-action (to be able to feed these requires an action that is at least 2.800" or longer).
Posting the same poorly-worded advert does not make it any more factual than the first time :-)
Please direct me to _anywhere_ else that is promoting this amazing new Howa design, that even Howa makes zero mention of themselves.

No, I'm not a fan of Honda, circumstances (the last minute change from 750cc Superbike to 800-1000cc for 2004 in Australia) caused me to race a Fireblade for a few years and I needed a forum name :-)
I don't like the way Honda markets their bikes, I don't like the way they lumber their bikes with brand new technology before making sure it works first.
I would say I'm appreciative of JDM imports, but not a particular fan. I am a big fan of Japanese engineering and marketing, including the Howa rifles. Unfortunately they don't offer one that works for me, primarily because of their very strange choices of chamberings.
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by Bill » 21 Jan 2022, 9:32 pm

Hey Honda does Vtec better than anybody, Yamaha does a better version of 2 wheeled soul.

Anyway atleast you like Rugers. but hey maybe one day you'll come to like Howa's and stick one in your safe :D :thumbsup:
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by Oldbloke » 21 Jan 2022, 10:04 pm

bigpete wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:Would kick like a mule

Pfft


Shooting a 4lb 7oz 308 over the bench. After a few rounds you will certainly know it.
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bladeracer » 22 Jan 2022, 3:08 pm

Bill wrote:Hey Honda does Vtec better than anybody, Yamaha does a better version of 2 wheeled soul.

Anyway atleast you like Rugers. but hey maybe one day you'll come to like Howa's and stick one in your safe :D :thumbsup:



Yeah, and VTec is so worth having :-)
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I like Howa, a lot, they just have stupid chamberings that have zero appeal to me, Howa for me is akin to Honda, great rifles but with no soul, both feel like they have been assembled by robots to do the best job they can, and little else. When I heft one of my Rugers I very often think of the people working in the factories that built these rifles for me to get out and enjoy the bush as it should be enjoyed. I'm not sure Howa workers know what bush is :-)

My two primary hunting cartridges I shoot more than any other high-velocity centrefires are the .204 and 7mm-08. If Howa had offered me those in the same platform seven years ago I might well have gone that way (although I had great Ruger experience already, and had never seen a Howa back then). These two mean my .223 and .243 rarely get used in anger, though both are still great fun to shoot. The .204 does everything I would ask of the WMR/HMR, the Hornets, and everything I used to use the .222Rem for, and it does most of the .223's donkey work (all the 40-50gn work). It also gives me a little more subsonic accuracy and less wind drift than the .22LR past 100m due to the jacketed 32gn bullets. It does have a little versatility due to the large case capacity, but its niche is still very narrow, you can only ask so much of bullets in the 24gn to 45gn realm (I do have some 55gn Bergers for when it's time to rebarrel). Without handloading though, it's has virtually no versatility, it just slings tiny little bullets at extreme velocities, like the .17's did forty years ago.

The 7mm-08 does most of what I would've used the .243 and 6.5x55mm for in the past, and everything I might want to do with most cartridges up to and including .30-06. The 7mm-08 is what the .308/7.62x51mm should have been. I can't bring myself to take the .243 out for deer when the 7mm-08 does everything so much better in exactly the same platform. The .243 gets about 3500fps out of 80gn bullets, the 7mm-08 makes about 3700fps, at 108gn the velocities are very similar, but there the .243 stops and the 7mm-08 just keeps going (mine shoots to around 175gn, but a rebarrel lets you use 7mm bullets up to 212gn or more, and at .30-06 velocities). I have no idea about factory ammo in 7mm08, but I would guess it's mostly in the 120gn to 162gn realm.

If I ever decide I do need something with more punch I figured it'd be the .300WinMag (got dies and brass years ago in anticipation), but it only adds a few hundred velocities (Who-Tee-Who lingo) over the 7mm-08. If I stalk 200m closer I can get the same energy out of the 7mm-08, and a better shot.

A very quick look at Hornady's heaviest factory ammo has the .300WinMag 180gn CX (their new copper bullet) making 2960fps and 3503lb-ft at the muzzle, and the 7mm-08 150gn ELDX 2770fps and 2555lb-ft. At 270m, the 7mm-08 is making 2315fps and 1784lb-ft, virtually the same as the .300WinMag at 400m, so just make a little more effort in the bush, and get 130m closer with the lighter rifle. Handloading fudges these figures, but it's just not a big enough step up to bother with. Hornady's own 8x57mm 195gn SP hits harder than their heaviest .300WinMag out to 300m, and I already have a pile of 8x57mm rifles.

That fairly well sums up why I consider .204 and 7mm-08 to be "bread'n'butter" chamberings that every rifle should be offered in :-)
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by LawrenceA » 22 Jan 2022, 4:18 pm

One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bladeracer » 22 Jan 2022, 4:39 pm

LawrenceA wrote:https://www.howausa.com/2022-howa-catalog/

Page 5 - but does not really give anything away

https://www.americanhunter.org/content/ ... le-series/

https://www.americanrifleman.org/conten ... uper-lite/


Pages 5 & 6 make it pretty clear.
The lightest rifle they offer is the 4lb 5oz Mini-Action Carbon Elevate with the 20" carbon barrel, only in 6.5mm Grendel.
The Short-Action in 6.5CM and .308 is 24" at 6lb 7oz.

The second link states this, "This new Howa offering has a unique Howa Reduced Short Action that is in between the already popular Howa Mini Action and the standard Short Action platform. The gun's unique action is fed by a flush-fit detachable magazine, slotted into a machined receiver. ", which is patently ludicrous. How do you feed 2.800" short-action cartridges through a bolt opening that is smaller than 2.800"? Perhaps they've reduced the external dimensions of the receiver, but they certainly have not reduced the length of the short-action. They can certainly make an action that is between the 2.800" short, and the 2.260" mini, but it will not be chambered in any short-action cartridges.
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by Bill » 22 Jan 2022, 7:32 pm

Keep in mind Bladerace you have the USA Shot Show on at the moment and Howa had a stand but decided not to attend, I had a mate try and visit there stand but it was empty. :drinks:
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by Bill » 23 Jan 2022, 2:58 pm

So I just did a quick check on current Ultralite Rifles that weigh less than 5lbs and come with a Carbon Fibre stock. I couldn't find anything from Sako, Tikka, Remington or Ruger that could make the grade. Prices I’ve listed for the Howa’s is what comes up with a quick search, the other makes generally don’t seem to be discounted. I’ve listed the receiver ring diameter where I could find it so you can see where the new Super lite SA will need to be around. :drinks:

Kimber receiver ring is 1.14 inches Mountain Ascent 4lb 13oz $2300 US
Howa Mini is 1.17 inches Carbon Stalker 4lb 10oz $999 US
Nula is 1.22 inches Model 20 4lb 12oz $4200 US
Weatherby Mark V ??? Backcountry Ti 4lb 11oz $3449 US
New Howa M1500 ??? Super Lite 4lb 7oz $1180 US
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Re: New Howa Short Action only 4lbs 7oz

Post by bladeracer » 23 Jan 2022, 3:51 pm

Bill wrote:So I just did a quick check on current Ultralite Rifles that weigh less than 5lbs and come with a Carbon Fibre stock. I couldn't find anything from Sako, Tikka, Remington or Ruger that could make the grade. Prices I’ve listed for the Howa’s is what comes up with a quick search, the other makes generally don’t seem to be discounted. I’ve listed the receiver ring diameter where I could find it so you can see where the new Super lite SA will need to be around. :drinks:

Kimber receiver ring is 1.14 inches Mountain Ascent 4lb 13oz $2300 US
Howa Mini is 1.17 inches Carbon Stalker 4lb 10oz $999 US
Nula is 1.22 inches Model 20 4lb 12oz $4200 US
Weatherby Mark V ??? Backcountry Ti 4lb 11oz $3449 US
New Howa M1500 ??? Super Lite 4lb 7oz $1180 US


Kimber does claim 4lb 13oz (2.2kg) for the Mountain Ascent in .308, 6.5CM and 7mm-08, and that it is "the lightest production bolt action big game hunting rifle on the market today" - which I'm unable to dispute. It has an unfluted stainless 22" barrel though which makes it very difficult to believe - can anybody confirm this is correct? It has no sights or rail so will require some kind of optic, but it's still very impressive. With a red-dot the rifle is still lighter than a bare Howa 1500 barreled action.

Nula does offer the 4.75lb Model 20 Short, which they call their short-action even though it's a mini-action, they call their short-action an intermediate action, which starts at 5lb. They call their 5.5lb long-action "springfield-length". For a rifle builder to not understand what the action lengths are is a worry.

The weight I find for the Backcountry Ti starts at 5.3lb?

Weight for the "new" 1500 Mini Superlite starts at 4lb 7oz. The 1500 Superlite short-action is heavier.
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I don't expect a response, but I have written to Legacy asking if they really do now have a 4lb 7oz .308 rifle for us.
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bladeracer
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