Howa mini vs SA questions

[AHobson87]

Hey guys n girls. I'm new to shooting and looking at getting my first rifle but I have some questions I'm hoping you all could help me with.
I'm decided on a Howa 1500 in 223 but I'm unsure which the best option is. The mini action seems like good value with the already detachable mag but is the mini action any different to the short action? If you got both in a 20 inch barrel would they perform any different? What would be the benefit of getting the short action (over the mini action) and installing a mag kit?
Also on the barrel length, you can get the mini action in a 16.25 inch barrel. What are the pros and cons comparing it to a 20inch barrel? Is the shorter barrel less accurate?
I will most likely be hunting foxes and bunnies and maybe shooting some target for fun.

Thanks for any help

Andrew

[Oldbloke]

Go the 20". The 20" barrel will give higher velocity.

[bigpete]

Go the 20". The 20" barrel will give higher velocity.

And be better on the ears

[Oldbloke]

Go the 20". The 20" barrel will give higher velocity.

And be better on the ears

[Communism_Is_Cancer]

Walking through the scrub taking short shots short barrel good. Shooting fixed targets longer barrel good. 16 inch is that good middle ground.

Here is a good Paul Harrell video comparing barrel lengths in the same calibre but different platform as your intended purchase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z06pAJciuNI

[bigpete]

Funny,I'm not having any problem whatsoever getting through scrub you can't see 20m in and using rifles with 24" barrels....would hate to try and hunt in scrub thick enough to actually warrant a 16" barrel....

[Border_Bloke]

Ballistics by the inch is a good resource, although other than the .223 it’s mainly pistol calibers. You roughly lose 100 fps for every inch you shorten the barrel;
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html

This one has a few rifle calibres (but not the 223) including the 45-70, 444, 280AI, 450BM, 460 S&W Mag and 6.5cm;
https://matchgrademachine.com/velocity-testing-thompson-center-barrels/

[Oldbloke]

Funny,I'm not having any problem whatsoever getting through scrub you can't see 20m in and using rifles with 24" barrels....would hate to try and hunt in scrub thick enough to actually warrant a 16" barrel....

I just wouldn't bother.

[bigpete]

Funny,I'm not having any problem whatsoever getting through scrub you can't see 20m in and using rifles with 24" barrels....would hate to try and hunt in scrub thick enough to actually warrant a 16" barrel....

I just wouldn't bother.

How do you think I got this guy ?

Screenshot_20220126-152816_Gallery.jpg (491.41 KiB) Viewed 8156 times

[bladeracer]

The Mini is AR15 length, to feed 2.260" cartridges, the short-action feeds 2.800". Not an issue if you only ever intend to feed it factory ammo.

But you also mentioned target shooting, and if you want to start loading long VLD and ELD bullets, without being limited to standard cartridge length, then you'll want a bigger magazine and action. Loading a 1.254" 90gn Berger at 2.260" leaves little room in the case for powder. The Howa Mini will apparently feed ammo up to about 2.330" according to what I've seen on forums. I don't know if it has a longer throat to allow even longer cartridges single-loading.

If the twist rate is slower than 8" though, you can't run the longer target bullets anyway.

A standard short-action allows feeding .223 cartridges up to 2.800", leaving the full case capacity for powder, maximising potential velocity, assuming the chamber is throated long enough - my rifle lets me load 80gn ELDM at 2.450" as the throat is around 1.925" (where the rifling starts to impinge on the bullet). One day I need to try loading these long bullets at 2.260" just to see how much velocity is lost.

Barrel length is not relevant to accuracy, but barrel length can effect harmonics. A load that shoots well in a 22" barrel may shoot poorly in a 16", and vice versa.

[Tubs]

The Mini is AR15 length, to feed 2.260" cartridges, the short-action feeds 2.800". Not an issue if you only ever intend to feed it factory ammo.

But you also mentioned target shooting, and if you want to start loading long VLD and ELD bullets, without being limited to standard cartridge length, then you'll want a bigger magazine and action. Loading a 1.254" 90gn Berger at 2.260" leaves little room in the case for powder. The Howa Mini will apparently feed ammo up to about 2.330" according to what I've seen on forums. I don't know if it has a longer throat to allow even longer cartridges single-loading.

If the twist rate is slower than 8" though, you can't run the longer target bullets anyway.

A standard short-action allows feeding .223 cartridges up to 2.800", leaving the full case capacity for powder, maximising potential velocity, assuming the chamber is throated long enough - my rifle lets me load 80gn ELDM at 2.450" as the throat is around 1.925" (where the rifling starts to impinge on the bullet). One day I need to try loading these long bullets at 2.260" just to see how much velocity is lost.

Barrel length is not relevant to accuracy, but barrel length can effect harmonics. A load that shoots well in a 22" barrel may shoot poorly in a 16", and vice versa.

Hey mate, what is the maximum length of 223 bullet (grains better) that the mini will shoot?

[Oldbloke]

Funny,I'm not having any problem whatsoever getting through scrub you can't see 20m in and using rifles with 24" barrels....would hate to try and hunt in scrub thick enough to actually warrant a 16" barrel....

I just wouldn't bother.

How do you think I got this guy ?

Screenshot_20220126-152816_Gallery.jpg

Unusual for a farm to have scrub that thick

[bladeracer]

The Mini is AR15 length, to feed 2.260" cartridges, the short-action feeds 2.800". Not an issue if you only ever intend to feed it factory ammo.

But you also mentioned target shooting, and if you want to start loading long VLD and ELD bullets, without being limited to standard cartridge length, then you'll want a bigger magazine and action. Loading a 1.254" 90gn Berger at 2.260" leaves little room in the case for powder. The Howa Mini will apparently feed ammo up to about 2.330" according to what I've seen on forums. I don't know if it has a longer throat to allow even longer cartridges single-loading.

If the twist rate is slower than 8" though, you can't run the longer target bullets anyway.

A standard short-action allows feeding .223 cartridges up to 2.800", leaving the full case capacity for powder, maximising potential velocity, assuming the chamber is throated long enough - my rifle lets me load 80gn ELDM at 2.450" as the throat is around 1.925" (where the rifling starts to impinge on the bullet). One day I need to try loading these long bullets at 2.260" just to see how much velocity is lost.

Barrel length is not relevant to accuracy, but barrel length can effect harmonics. A load that shoots well in a 22" barrel may shoot poorly in a 16", and vice versa.

Hey mate, what is the maximum length of 223 bullet (grains better) that the mini will shoot?

Maximum bullet length will be dependent on barrel twist-rate. Cleaver lists a Mini with 8"-twist, but if that's all the .223's, or if it's accurate data I don't know.

8"-twist shoots bullets up to around 1.180" in length, the long-80gn to short-90gn region.

[bladeracer]

Funny,I'm not having any problem whatsoever getting through scrub you can't see 20m in and using rifles with 24" barrels....would hate to try and hunt in scrub thick enough to actually warrant a 16" barrel....

I just wouldn't bother.

How do you think I got this guy ?

Screenshot_20220126-152816_Gallery.jpg

Unusual for a farm to have scrub that thick

We have lots of almost impassible bush on our properties. Places you have to crawl on hands and knees to get through. Lots of blackberry in there too making some places very uninviting to explore. Nothing in there to hunt though, just foxes and an occasional rabbit. Plenty of wombats, echidna, Koalas, possums, wallabys and roos.

[jwai86]

The Mini Action has a shorter chamber and bolt than the Short Action. This theoretically makes the bolt quicker to cycle, but you might not notice a huge difference in practice.

I've seen various reports that the Mini Action is prone to unexpectedly dropping the magazine if you're not careful with keeping your hands or other objects clear of the sensitive magazine release.

[bigpete]

Funny,I'm not having any problem whatsoever getting through scrub you can't see 20m in and using rifles with 24" barrels....would hate to try and hunt in scrub thick enough to actually warrant a 16" barrel....

I just wouldn't bother.

How do you think I got this guy ?

Screenshot_20220126-152816_Gallery.jpg

Unusual for a farm to have scrub that thick

Not really in this area its not

[bladeracer]

The Mini Action has a shorter chamber and bolt than the Short Action. This theoretically makes the bolt quicker to cycle, but you might not notice a huge difference in practice.

I've seen various reports that the Mini Action is prone to unexpectedly dropping the magazine if you're not careful with keeping your hands or other objects clear of the sensitive magazine release.

Chamber is the same, the chamber is where the cartridge goes to be fired. The action length (Mini, short, long and magnum) is the opening between the bolt face and the breech face of the barrel. A cartridge held against the bolt by the extractor needs that distance for the live round to be ejected.

You could hand feed longer cartridges into a shorter action, but if you need to extract a live round, you might have to remove the bolt to get enough room for the cartridge to be ejected.

[jwai86]

The Mini Action has a shorter chamber and bolt than the Short Action. This theoretically makes the bolt quicker to cycle, but you might not notice a huge difference in practice.

I've seen various reports that the Mini Action is prone to unexpectedly dropping the magazine if you're not careful with keeping your hands or other objects clear of the sensitive magazine release.

Chamber is the same, the chamber is where the cartridge goes to be fired. The action length (Mini, short, long and magnum) is the opening between the bolt face and the breech face of the barrel. A cartridge held against the bolt by the extractor needs that distance for the live round to be ejected.

You could hand feed longer cartridges into a shorter action, but if you need to extract a live round, you might have to remove the bolt to get enough room for the cartridge to be ejected.

I quoted what was on the OSA website, but OK.

https://www.osaaustralia.com.au/product ... n-sporter/

[bladeracer]

The Mini Action has a shorter chamber and bolt than the Short Action. This theoretically makes the bolt quicker to cycle, but you might not notice a huge difference in practice.

I've seen various reports that the Mini Action is prone to unexpectedly dropping the magazine if you're not careful with keeping your hands or other objects clear of the sensitive magazine release.

Chamber is the same, the chamber is where the cartridge goes to be fired. The action length (Mini, short, long and magnum) is the opening between the bolt face and the breech face of the barrel. A cartridge held against the bolt by the extractor needs that distance for the live round to be ejected.

You could hand feed longer cartridges into a shorter action, but if you need to extract a live round, you might have to remove the bolt to get enough room for the cartridge to be ejected.

I quoted what was on the OSA website, but OK.

https://www.osaaustralia.com.au/product ... n-sporter/

Having seen the Superlite blurb from Howa their incomprehesion of basic firearm information doesn't surprise me at all.

[Bill]

The Mini Action has a shorter chamber and bolt than the Short Action. This theoretically makes the bolt quicker to cycle, but you might not notice a huge difference in practice.

I've seen various reports that the Mini Action is prone to unexpectedly dropping the magazine if you're not careful with keeping your hands or other objects clear of the sensitive magazine release.

jwai86 you will love the short throw on a Howa mini, makes it really easy to handle and cycle. Its a superior action to the old Sako L46 & L461 and with drop-in trigger springs available for only $22 no other mods are necessary. You get use to the magazine set up and but you need to be firm and feel for the positive click for the engagement with the latch, when I'm at the range I tap it up with my hand and I can hear it. You can also trim the magazine latch so there is less protrusion so that its impossible to bump and release your magazine. I've trimmed the latch on all 3 mini's I've owned

Another positive of the Mini mags is they feed everything without issue, super short or long projectiles. The 223, 6.5 Grendel and 6mm ARC all feed like butter, thou I tend to single feed when at the range.

Talley alloy rings are the best for the Mini, not only do they keep weight down but they will never lever ring marks unlike many of the steel rings out there

https://www.talleymanufacturing.com/pro ... pe-mounts/

[bladeracer]

The Mini Action has a shorter chamber and bolt than the Short Action. This theoretically makes the bolt quicker to cycle, but you might not notice a huge difference in practice.

I've seen various reports that the Mini Action is prone to unexpectedly dropping the magazine if you're not careful with keeping your hands or other objects clear of the sensitive magazine release.

jwai86 you will love the short throw on a Howa mini, makes it really easy to handle and cycle. Its a superior action to the old Sako L46 & L461 and with drop-in trigger springs available for only $22 no other mods are necessary. You get use to the magazine set up and but you need to be firm and feel for the positive click for the engagement with the latch, when I'm at the range I tap it up with my hand and I can hear it. You can also trim the magazine latch so there is less protrusion so that its impossible to bump and release your magazine. I've trimmed the latch on all 3 mini's I've owned

Another positive of the Mini mags is they feed everything without issue, super short or long projectiles. The 223, 6.5 Grendel and 6mm ARC all feed like butter, thou I tend to single feed when at the range.

Talley alloy rings are the best for the Mini, not only do they keep weight down but they will never lever ring marks unlike many of the steel rings out there

https://www.talleymanufacturing.com/pro ... pe-mounts/

Good stuff, Bill.
Can you tell us your throat length for future reference? What ogive length will your rifle chamber?

[Bill]

No idea on throat length blade racer for the 6mm ARC as it's rather generous, it's been optimised for the long 105, 108gr high BC pills.

I'm favouring the shorter 90gr BT and 90gr Lapua scenar and using hornady factory oal settings with good accuracy.

[bladeracer]

No idea on throat length blade racer for the 6mm ARC as it's rather generous, it's been optimised for the long 105, 108gr high BC pills.

I'm favouring the shorter 90gr BT and 90gr Lapua scenar and using hornady factory oal settings with good accuracy.

So you can shoot cartridges that are significantly longer than mag length with these VLD/ELD bullets?

[AHobson87]

Thanks for all the info guys! Much appreciated

[jovialjosie2002]

I would be getting the one with the floor plate and not the detachable magazine.
The magazine can easily fall out. This is a pain because you gotta buy a new one, who knows where you lost the old one. The problem can be partially fixed by filing down the large mag release button/lever on the Howa.
This is the only issue with the Howa, in saying that, it's only a minor annoyance. These rifles shoot great and nothing breaks on them. You are making a very good decision to get a Howa.

[in2anity]

It's possible the carbine may be "girthier" at the muzzle compared with the 24" rifle - idk, but perhaps worth investigating if you'll be casually punching paper at modest distances. At close range such a property may yield at better benchrest group.