need help 310 CADET

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need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 12:56 pm

Could some one please tell me the difference between:

.310 Cadet 128gn Round Nose Heeled Flat Base .323
and
.310 Cadet 122gn Round Nose Flat Point Flat Base .316

just bought the rifle, die and case ready to reload but don't know which projectile I should buy

thanks
SHV
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 12:56 pm

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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 12:58 pm

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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 1:01 pm

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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 1:04 pm

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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 1:05 pm

what does 12-120 mean?
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 1:06 pm

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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by bladeracer » 13 May 2022, 1:09 pm

SHV wrote:Could some one please tell me the difference between:

.310 Cadet 128gn Round Nose Heeled Flat Base .323
and
.310 Cadet 122gn Round Nose Flat Point Flat Base .316

just bought the rifle, die and case ready to reload but don't know which projectile I should buy

thanks


Push a lump of soft lead through your bore to determine the bullet diameter you need. You might also want a chamber cast to see if you have enough room in the chamber to not have to use heeled bullets. The heeled bullet has a narrower tail that fits into the case mouth, the driving band of the bullet is larger so won't fit into the case. The non-heeled bullet is designed to push into the case mouth like we normally load. This will also determine what you need to neck-size the case down to. If you have unsized brass see if it will chamber.
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by bladeracer » 13 May 2022, 1:10 pm

Gorgeous rifle!
But is the rear sight on backwards?
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by Blr243 » 13 May 2022, 1:12 pm

There’s so much diff between 316 and 323 that makes me think the first thing is to slug your bore ... but I’m no military rifle or cast bullet expert
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 1:17 pm

bladeracer wrote:
SHV wrote:Could some one please tell me the difference between:

.310 Cadet 128gn Round Nose Heeled Flat Base .323
and
.310 Cadet 122gn Round Nose Flat Point Flat Base .316

just bought the rifle, die and case ready to reload but don't know which projectile I should buy

thanks


Push a lump of soft lead through your bore to determine the bullet diameter you need. You might also want a chamber cast to see if you have enough room in the chamber to not have to use heeled bullets. The heeled bullet has a narrower tail that fits into the case mouth, the driving band of the bullet is larger so won't fit into the case. The non-heeled bullet is designed to push into the case mouth like we normally load. This will also determine what you need to neck-size the case down to. If you have unsized brass see if it will chamber.


thanks for the reply, new case fit in no problem
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by bladeracer » 13 May 2022, 1:22 pm

SHV wrote:thanks for the reply, new case fit in no problem



I see you have ammo there, does it shoot accurately in the rifle?
Is it loaded with a heeled bullet or a conventional bullet?
Is the bullet .316" or .323"?
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 1:51 pm

bladeracer wrote:
SHV wrote:thanks for the reply, new case fit in no problem



I see you have ammo there, does it shoot accurately in the rifle?
Is it loaded with a heeled bullet or a conventional bullet?
Is the bullet .316" or .323"?


haven't got chance to shot it yet also I got the only one (last one) box of ammo it looks cool as well so I don't want to shoot them
I can push a 311 projectile into the barrel from muzzle easily ( tight fit but smoothly with a little push) does that mean it needs to be 323?
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 1:55 pm

the factory ammo is 316 by the way
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by bladeracer » 13 May 2022, 2:18 pm

SHV wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
SHV wrote:thanks for the reply, new case fit in no problem



I see you have ammo there, does it shoot accurately in the rifle?
Is it loaded with a heeled bullet or a conventional bullet?
Is the bullet .316" or .323"?


haven't got chance to shot it yet also I got the only one (last one) box of ammo it looks cool as well so I don't want to shoot them
I can push a 311 projectile into the barrel from muzzle easily ( tight fit but smoothly with a little push) does that mean it needs to be 323?


Yes, I would be saving that stuff as well:-)

Probably but not necessarily. The .311" bullet should be engraved with rifling in a .316" barrel, but that assumes the muzzle rifling is not worn. A .323" barrel would probably not engrave the rifling into a .311" bullet at all as you would expect bore diameter to be around .008" under or .315". 8x57mm Mauser uses .323" bullets. If you can get some .316" bullets from somebody try them. Buying a mould without actually determining the diameter you require would be silly, unless you go over-size and size down to what you need. Any soft bullet will do to push through the bore. I bought 10rds of 00 Buckshot rounds when I wanted to slug the bore of an 8x57mm rifle years ago. But I've also used soft lead sheet rolled up to slug bores.

I'm guessing the ammo you have has the bullet seated into the case, not just the heel?
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 3:19 pm

Doesn’t look like heeled to me
D2BDDC66-3C3D-405E-BF2A-F0C81529DB3E.jpeg
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by bladeracer » 13 May 2022, 3:41 pm

SHV wrote:Doesn’t look like heeled to me
D2BDDC66-3C3D-405E-BF2A-F0C81529DB3E.jpeg


Yep, that's a heeled bullet, the bullet is narrower where it fits inside the case mouth, like .22LR.
If you know that the rifle shoots well with those then order the heeled mould.
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by No1Mk3 » 13 May 2022, 4:40 pm

G'day SHV,
The Cadet is worse than the 22 for variability, I would slug the bore as bladeracer suggested, and do a chamber cast as well due to chambers being quite variable for length, which will jam cases if they are too long (Bertrams are long, and usually need cutting back to suit most Cadets) Another reason is Mick Smith rechambering rifles to 32-20 by the hundred and not all of them were stamped, some unaltered Cadets will fire 32-20, 3 of mine do but 4 don't. 2 of mine prefer the .323" 128g heeled, 3 prefer the 117" 122g, and 2 couldn't care less. Go to CBE's website and look in the Downloads section, there are some great articles on reloading and shooting the 310, they also offer sample packs of bullets from their moulds to try and determine what works best for you before you order a mould. I only use HRBC 316" 122g and HRBC 323" 128g now, but until recently had a large jar of 317" 120g ex-Super Cartridge bullets that were magnificent in my Greener Cadet, all gone now alas.
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 5:10 pm

No1Mk3 wrote:G'day SHV,
The Cadet is worse than the 22 for variability, I would slug the bore as bladeracer suggested, and do a chamber cast as well due to chambers being quite variable for length, which will jam cases if they are too long (Bertrams are long, and usually need cutting back to suit most Cadets) Another reason is Mick Smith rechambering rifles to 32-20 by the hundred and not all of them were stamped, some unaltered Cadets will fire 32-20, 3 of mine do but 4 don't. 2 of mine prefer the .323" 128g heeled, 3 prefer the 117" 122g, and 2 couldn't care less. Go to CBE's website and look in the Downloads section, there are some great articles on reloading and shooting the 310, they also offer sample packs of bullets from their moulds to try and determine what works best for you before you order a mould. I only use HRBC 316" 122g and HRBC 323" 128g now, but until recently had a large jar of 317" 120g ex-Super Cartridge bullets that were magnificent in my Greener Cadet, all gone now alas.


sounds complex but interesting :D
will dig in and try something, thanks a lot
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by LawrenceA » 13 May 2022, 5:13 pm

SHV wrote:what does 12-120 mean?

The 12 means 12 grains of powder and the 120 means a 120 grain bullet.

Slugging the barrel is good.
Slugging the throat is better as this is where the bullet starts and is the area it needs to fill.

I cannot find my copies but there was a series of 2 or 3 articles which are on the web all about how to get the best out of a cadet.
Really worth finding.
I think the Shooters Journal may have printed them but not sure.

Here is a start. CBE started with Cadets

https://www.castbulletengineering.com.a ... g-magazine
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 11:01 pm

bladeracer wrote:Gorgeous rifle!
But is the rear sight on backwards?

rear sight, the hinge on the back
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 11:02 pm

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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 11:04 pm

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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 13 May 2022, 11:06 pm

LawrenceA wrote:
SHV wrote:what does 12-120 mean?

The 12 means 12 grains of powder and the 120 means a 120 grain bullet.

Slugging the barrel is good.
Slugging the throat is better as this is where the bullet starts and is the area it needs to fill.

I cannot find my copies but there was a series of 2 or 3 articles which are on the web all about how to get the best out of a cadet.
Really worth finding.
I think the Shooters Journal may have printed them but not sure.

Here is a start. CBE started with Cadets

https://www.castbulletengineering.com.a ... g-magazine

Thanks for sharing, good to know
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 14 May 2022, 8:10 pm

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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 14 May 2022, 8:11 pm

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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 23 May 2022, 2:38 pm

try to reload 323 heeled cast projectile, after the bullet seating into the case, expand too much couldn't chamber
the throat of the cast measured .335
is the case too thick or the bullet bottom part too fat? it really doesn't look like heeled bullet
if the Blackwidow cast bullet bottom part diameter a little smaller will be fine I reckon or should I cut the case a little shorter?
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by bladeracer » 23 May 2022, 4:04 pm

SHV wrote:try to reload 323 heeled cast projectile, after the bullet seating into the case, expand too much couldn't chamber
the throat of the cast measured .335
is the case too thick or the bullet bottom part too fat? it really doesn't look like heeled bullet
if the Blackwidow cast bullet bottom part diameter a little smaller will be fine I reckon or should I cut the case a little shorter?


A heeled bullet will generally be the same diameter as the outside of the case neck, the base of the bullet is the diameter of the inside of the case neck, the driving band is wider than the case mouth.
The throat is the front part of the chamber ahead of the case mouth. If yours it .335" it seems odd to use a .316" bullet, you really want to use the fattest bullet that will fit into the throat, it'll swage down to fit the bore when you fire it. If your bore is .316" I would've expected the throat to be not more than .320".

What diameter is the heel of your .323" bullet?
Did you push it deeper into the case than just the heel?
What is the diameter of the case neck with the bullet seated?
Have you slugged the bore?
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by SHV » 23 May 2022, 4:17 pm

bladeracer wrote:
SHV wrote:try to reload 323 heeled cast projectile, after the bullet seating into the case, expand too much couldn't chamber
the throat of the cast measured .335
is the case too thick or the bullet bottom part too fat? it really doesn't look like heeled bullet
if the Blackwidow cast bullet bottom part diameter a little smaller will be fine I reckon or should I cut the case a little shorter?


A heeled bullet will generally be the same diameter as the outside of the case neck, the base of the bullet is the diameter of the inside of the case neck, the driving band is wider than the case mouth.
The throat is the front part of the chamber ahead of the case mouth. If yours it .335" it seems odd to use a .316" bullet, you really want to use the fattest bullet that will fit into the throat, it'll swage down to fit the bore when you fire it. If your bore is .316" I would've expected the throat to be not more than .320".

What diameter is the heel of your .323" bullet?
Did you push it deeper into the case than just the heel?
What is the diameter of the case neck with the bullet seated?
Have you slugged the bore?


What diameter is the heel of your .323" bullet?-----------bottom part .314 driving band is .323
Did you push it deeper into the case than just the heel?---------not too deep just stopped at heal line or leave a little gap
What is the diameter of the case neck with the bullet seated?----------.335
Have you slugged the bore?------not yet but I put .311 projectiles to the barrel it can be pushed totally inside with out too much effort, also I insert the 310(316) factory ammo projectile into the barrel it get in easily the rifling only scratches the wax off

thanks
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Re: need help 310 CADET

Post by bladeracer » 23 May 2022, 5:25 pm

SHV wrote:What diameter is the heel of your .323" bullet?-----------bottom part .314 driving band is .323
Did you push it deeper into the case than just the heel?---------not too deep just stopped at heal line or leave a little gap
What is the diameter of the case neck with the bullet seated?----------.335
Have you slugged the bore?------not yet but I put .311 projectiles to the barrel it can be pushed totally inside with out too much effort, also I insert the 310(316) factory ammo projectile into the barrel it get in easily the rifling only scratches the wax off

thanks


It certainly sounds like the bore is around the .323" area then. Will the bullet (not the cartridge) drop all the way into the throat until it touches the rifling?
The specs call for the loaded case neck to be .327". With age, the chamber could certainly be larger than spec, but .335" is getting extreme I think.
This CIP spec also calls for the reamer to be .328" max at the case mouth and .325" in the throat. And the case length should not be over 1.130" - if it's longer it might get crimped in the throat (but you already said the empty brass chambers fine).
https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-ii/tabiical-en-page78.pdf

You said the new cases and the old factory ammo both chamber fine, what is the diameter around the neck of those cases?
You said the cast of the throat is .335", do you mean the case neck area of the chamber rather than the throat? Did you cast the whole chamber? If the chamber measures .335" it would certainly make it difficult to force a .335" case neck into it. I can only surmise that the case is being enlarged too far when seating the bullet. Which could be due to the neck wall thickness being too thick, or the heel of the bullet being too wide (it seems fine at .314"), or you need to crimp the bullet, or perhaps it's shaving lead off the bullet when seating and piling up in the case neck due to the heel. Is the bullet going in nicely without much force? Are you flaring the case mouth and crimping it back afterwards?

I would take a cast of the chamber and use those measurements to determine what I size the case neck to (probably .002" under the chamber dimension), and what size bullet (.001" or .002" under throat diameter) and heel (case neck diameter minus the neck wall thickness) I want to use. You can make a neck sizing die similar to a bullet sizing die by boring an under-size hole through a 7/8"-14tpi bolt then hone it out to the size you need (start under-size and test load and shoot before honing it out further). You can do the same with the bullet, and the heel - you would basically be doing the same as nose-sizing the bullet to fit the bore but at the other end of the bullet. To size the bullet (driving band) you push the whole bullet through a die. To size just the nose (so it fits neatly into the rifling) or the heel (to fit into the case), you push the bullet partially into a die then push it back out. You can also make a simple crimp die out of a bolt if you have to, but the bullet will also be sized down about .001" smaller diameter than the case neck by this sort of crimp die.
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