variety of game with 223

[bigrich]

DBCA have got it wrong. Most people do because they dont know any different. Not the first time and wont be the last.
Remember, these are not written by the "government", they are written by a public servant. And they certainly get many things wrong.

Most of the information is taken off national Standard Operating Procedures, which are written by people who have never used firearms to any degree. They are pretty good researchers though.

Note that in the accompanying photo, it was only the uppermost shot that killed the animal. The others, including those shot between the eyes, and at the X between the ears and eyes, all failed to kill the animal.

Interesting pic but just wondering the details of that shoot mate. Who shot the animal four times before killing it and how did they get 4 shots without it running off? The file attachment says 357 as well. If it was penned, a farmer with a 22LR could do a better job I am thinking

a few farmers i've come across prefer a 22 mag with 50gn fmj for such duties on penned cattle . 22mag has more punch with 40gn hp for foxes as well

[JohnV]

I have taken a lot of roos and foxes with 223 plus numerous smaller pigs and a few head shots on bigger pigs . Also shot about a dozen cattle with a brain shot for butchering and quite a few sheep . For me a 223 is a spotlighting cartridge for roos and foxes and occasionally it's all you have to shoot a pig that turns up in the spotlight . I have never shot a goat with a 223 it's too marginal in my book but I would go for a head shot if one turned up in the spotlight but I can't remember that ever happening .
Longer shots on goats is common in day time stalking so I like a bigger cartridge that can reach out across a big gully and still have some knock down power and you might also run into a deer while stalking goats .
I have used .243 , 308 . 6.5x55 . 30-06 & 300 WM in the past . Now I just have .243 , 308 , 30-06 .

[bladeracer]

I have taken a lot of roos and foxes with 223 plus numerous smaller pigs and a few head shots on bigger pigs . Also shot about a dozen cattle with a brain shot for butchering and quite a few sheep . For me a 223 is a spotlighting cartridge for roos and foxes and occasionally it's all you have to shoot a pig that turns up in the spotlight . I have never shot a goat with a 223 it's too marginal in my book but I would go for a head shot if one turned up in the spotlight but I can't remember that ever happening .
Longer shots on goats is common in day time stalking so I like a bigger cartridge that can reach out across a big gully and still have some knock down power and you might also run into a deer while stalking goats .
I have used .243 , 308 . 6.5x55 . 30-06 & 300 WM in the past . Now I just have .243 , 308 , 30-06 .

What about with an 80gn or 85gn bullet in the .223? Really closes the gap on the .243. At the muzzle it's like a .243 at 200m or so.

[Boundry Rider]

@mickb
I’d say 3 shots were post mortem for research purposes- my educated guess. I’ve done similar in the past.

[mickb]

@mickb
I’d say 3 shots were post mortem for research purposes- my educated guess. I’ve done similar in the past.

yep thats what I meant by if it was an experiment.

[bigrich]

I have taken a lot of roos and foxes with 223 plus numerous smaller pigs and a few head shots on bigger pigs . Also shot about a dozen cattle with a brain shot for butchering and quite a few sheep . For me a 223 is a spotlighting cartridge for roos and foxes and occasionally it's all you have to shoot a pig that turns up in the spotlight . I have never shot a goat with a 223 it's too marginal in my book but I would go for a head shot if one turned up in the spotlight but I can't remember that ever happening .
Longer shots on goats is common in day time stalking so I like a bigger cartridge that can reach out across a big gully and still have some knock down power and you might also run into a deer while stalking goats .
I have used .243 , 308 . 6.5x55 . 30-06 & 300 WM in the past . Now I just have .243 , 308 , 30-06 .

What about with an 80gn or 85gn bullet in the .223? Really closes the gap on the .243. At the muzzle it's like a .243 at 200m or so.

243 is marginal on some game at 200 meters too .at 200 meters i don't think a 223 with 80-85gn projectiles will have enough energy for some jobs . at the moment projectile availability is not good and a lot of target shooters snap up all the high BC projectiles for 223 and 6.5 cal as soon as they pop up . i briefly looked into 6x45 for shooting heavier projectiles out of the 223 . makes more sense to just use a larger caliber .if i'm not asked to cull anything or spotlighting, i just take a 7-08 or similar (260 rem and the various 6.5's) , and use it on everything . i've downsized my collection recently . i currently have 22lr ,223, 7-08, 30-06 and 9.3x62 .that's a good caliber spread with no real overlap that's got me covered for any type of trip/hunt i do . i also have a 22hornet , but it's got a small niche of uses in southern queensland . i'm thinking about moving it on .

[mickb]

My collection is 22LR, 223 and 44 mag( replacing a 357). My collection 10 years ago was a lot different , it had no centrefires smaller than 375H&H and everything else started with a 4 or 5. I was one of those nuts who used 375 on everything, even small game with 220gn flatpoints meant for the 375win. I went the other way about 10 years ago, had hammered my cochlear to the point big powder charges bug me even with double ear protection. Now into minimalist shooting. 357 served well. Now I'll be one of those guys who shoots anything with a 223 and admits to about half of it.

[animalpest]

Air rifles, .22, .22 mag, .22 hornet, .222, .223, 22/250, .243, 25/06, .308, .44 mag, 375 H&H, shotguns. Recon I have it covered

[JohnV]

I have taken a lot of roos and foxes with 223 plus numerous smaller pigs and a few head shots on bigger pigs . Also shot about a dozen cattle with a brain shot for butchering and quite a few sheep . For me a 223 is a spotlighting cartridge for roos and foxes and occasionally it's all you have to shoot a pig that turns up in the spotlight . I have never shot a goat with a 223 it's too marginal in my book but I would go for a head shot if one turned up in the spotlight but I can't remember that ever happening .
Longer shots on goats is common in day time stalking so I like a bigger cartridge that can reach out across a big gully and still have some knock down power and you might also run into a deer while stalking goats .
I have used .243 , 308 . 6.5x55 . 30-06 & 300 WM in the past . Now I just have .243 , 308 , 30-06 .

What about with an 80gn or 85gn bullet in the .223? Really closes the gap on the .243. At the muzzle it's like a .243 at 200m or so.

It all depends on what twist rate the barrel is some 85 grainers with boat tails are too long for a 1 in 12 twist . Unfortunately the game is not standing 1 meter from the muzzle .
No matter what you do to a .223 it won't equal a 243 pushing a 87 grain bullet faster and the .243 will never equal a 270W in knock down power .

[Oldbloke]

I have taken a lot of roos and foxes with 223 plus numerous smaller pigs and a few head shots on bigger pigs . Also shot about a dozen cattle with a brain shot for butchering and quite a few sheep . For me a 223 is a spotlighting cartridge for roos and foxes and occasionally it's all you have to shoot a pig that turns up in the spotlight . I have never shot a goat with a 223 it's too marginal in my book but I would go for a head shot if one turned up in the spotlight but I can't remember that ever happening .
Longer shots on goats is common in day time stalking so I like a bigger cartridge that can reach out across a big gully and still have some knock down power and you might also run into a deer while stalking goats .
I have used .243 , 308 . 6.5x55 . 30-06 & 300 WM in the past . Now I just have .243 , 308 , 30-06 .

What about with an 80gn or 85gn bullet in the .223? Really closes the gap on the .243. At the muzzle it's like a .243 at 200m or so.

It all depends on what twist rate the barrel is some 85 grainers with boat tails are too long for a 1 in 12 twist . Unfortunately the game is not standing 1 meter from the muzzle .
No matter what you do to a .223 it won't equal a 243 pushing a 87 grain bullet faster and the .243 will never equal a 270W in knock down power .

LOL, some buy say 223 and try to emulate 243. Should have just bought a 243 in the first place. You can load them down much easier than loading them up. LOL

[bladeracer]

LOL, some buy say 223 and try to emulate 243. Should have just bought a 243 in the first place. You can load them down much easier than loading them up. LOL

An animal getting hit with an 85gn bullet at 2700fps doesn't much care whether it was launched from a .243 at 300m or a .223 at 100m though.

[JohnV]

I had a mate once that wanted me to help him butcher a cow . So I said I will bring the knives , saw , tackle and tripod to hang the beast and you bring a gun to shoot it .
Well he turned up with a manky old 22 single shot and a few bullets that looked so old and crappy . Anyway he lined it up in the yard and first shot , misfire , second shot went off and hit the cow in the right brain area but the cow just lurched away and tried to jump out of the yard . I said go up to the station house and get a real gun a center fire . I knew at that stage the meat was ruined from adrenalin but no turning back now . I needed to get the cow down and if I could I would just slit it's neck open and cut the main artery . So in I go Rambo style with knife in pouch and grab the cow by the tail and reefed it around and pull it down on it's side the jump onto it's neck so it can't get up and then administer the coup de grace . It worked because the cow was kinda stunned anyway . So my mate gets back with 303 and to his surprise the cow is down and bled out . So moral of the story is never use anyone else's gun , use your own gun and ammunition you can rely on . I made a mistake that day .

[Blr243]

I have heard of that happening before too A certain percentage experienced people can be trusted with equipment and knowledge. If in doubt it’s better to just organise everything yourself. If ever I have to put down a sick animal or kill a farm beast for butchering if possible I tie it to a tree first . Then if anything were to go wrong I’m not chasing a wounded animal all over the paddock with a gun or knife .... .personally never had an incident but I prefer to have the insurance

[JohnV]

If your using a light caliber then the brain shot needs to be very well placed but if your using something with more penetration power even if you accidently went under the brain the associated shock , wound channel and penetration into the neck spine area will take them out quickly . The trouble is many breeds don't have horns so I just aimed half way between the top of the head and the eyes and in the center at 50 meters or so . Shot about a dozen cattle with 223 and others with 243 and 308 .
Had to shoot a sick cow once and I used the 308 from the window of my 4x4 around 100 meters it dropped like a stone . Bullet hole was just a bit low on the forehead but the bigger cal makes up for it . When I speak to that farmer on the phone I say remember me I shot your cow ! It feels weird .
Most of the cattle that I have worked with santa's , Aussie short horns , black angus you would have to round up the whole mob and put them in the yards then cut out the one you want . Then to de-stress leave it in the yard overnight . However if you drive up to them in the truck with some bales of feed on the back they all come running and you just move around until you see the one you want . This makes for a low stress kill and better meat quality and you can bury the offal in the paddock . Better than having blood in the yards that attracts flies . Shoot the beast , bleed it out quickly and then drive back to the shed and get the loader tractor to lift it up . Dig a scrape hole with the loader . Gut and skin with the assistance of the loader lifting it halfway to help your back and get the guts out and drag the offal , head etc. into the hole . Carry back to the shed and split the spine and quarter etc. Hang in cool room . Drive back and fill in the hole .
If you don't have a gambrel strong enough for cattle use a short length of pipe about 600mm and a decent drag chain . Slip the chain through the pipe , then put each end through the cut you make between the bone and the Achilles tendon , the pipe keeps the legs apart . Hook it up as short as possible and lift .

[Die Judicii]

If your using a light caliber then the brain shot needs to be very well placed but if your using something with more penetration power even if you accidently went under the brain the associated shock , wound channel and penetration into the neck spine area will take them out quickly .

So how long do you think this one took to die ?

Shot at 4 AM and dropped on the spot,,, (presumed dead) then it never moved until 7-30 AM when I walked out to pick it up.
When it then lifted its head and barked at me.
Shot again through the chest at close range.

But yet again when I drove up to it,,,, it yet again lifted its head an barked at me.
The 3rd shot was through the back of the head.

All up it survived for 3 1/2 hours from the first shot which completely vaporized the spine area big enough to fit my fist in.
That night I was using .308 Hollow Points.

So I don't necessarily agree with what your saying ,,,,,, as this dog proved.

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[JohnV]

On bulls and steers there is a thick ridge of bone right in the center of the forehead so using rimfires it's best to aim slightly left or right of the center . With a bigger centerfire it don't matter so much .

[Peterwho]

That is one seriously tough dog

[animalpest]

DBCA have got it wrong. Most people do because they dont know any different. Not the first time and wont be the last.
Remember, these are not written by the "government", they are written by a public servant. And they certainly get many things wrong.

Most of the information is taken off national Standard Operating Procedures, which are written by people who have never used firearms to any degree. They are pretty good researchers though.

Note that in the accompanying photo, it was only the uppermost shot that killed the animal. The others, including those shot between the eyes, and at the X between the ears and eyes, all failed to kill the animal.

Interesting pic but just wondering the details of that shoot mate. Who shot the animal four times before killing it and how did they get 4 shots without it running off? The file attachment says 357 as well. If it was penned, a farmer with a 22LR could do a better job I am thinking, or was it an experiment?

Firstly, it was no experiment but real life, in the field shooting of injured/sick cattle. Shot with a .357 rifle with 180gr soft points at about 10m

[deanp100]

I have seen plenty of scrub bulls and tame cattle looking at me but Never had the intention of shooting them. Never seen a buff in the field but on pics and vids they always seem to be loooking at the hunters with outstretched necks and the skull angle seems Incredibley Shallow at much flatter than cattle. I imagine there’s a strong chance of a glancing bullet. I am guessing a guide would never encourage this shot and prefer a broadside animal. ... does anyone have experience in this situation if u had to take a frontal brain shot. Can it work I placed perfectly?... I have intentions to hunt buff just curious

I’ve shot 2 buff and that’s enough. Both with a 308 and both centre forehead while they looked at me. Both dead before they hit the ground.
In relation to shooting style through the head everyone has an opinion and everyone has seen good and bad shots but there is always a beast that defies logic.
I was working in Nz with MAF and was first on the scene of a cattle truck accident. There were broken cattle everywhere and the cops came and didn’t know what to do. I was in Vet Services and suggested I start shooting the worst injured. I had a Brno 22 in the boot but no ammo . A passerby produced a box of 22 hollowpoints and I started shooting. All cattle were Hereford, all the same size and age. I shot 10 or 11 with one kill shot to the head. One beast out of the lot I couldn’t kill. I even tried shooting into the same hole and couldn’t penetrate. Eventually got the cop to use his handgun but he didn’t want to. There’s always an exception to the rule that shouldn’t sway normal thinking.

[JohnV]

The shot that would not penetrate was probably on a steer and two centered on the bony ridge in the center of the forehead , go left or right an inch .

[Fionn]

There’s always an exception to the rule that shouldn’t sway normal thinking.

I agree, I have shot hundreds of sheep and goats in pens during a drought, most go down with one shot, but you get the odd one that just seems to not work on, taking multiple shots.

[geoff]

LOL, some buy say 223 and try to emulate 243. Should have just bought a 243 in the first place. You can load them down much easier than loading them up. LOL

An animal getting hit with an 85gn bullet at 2700fps doesn't much care whether it was launched from a .243 at 300m or a .223 at 100m though.

Uh I've never lined up a fox at 100m and gone "hang on a minute, I've got the 243 tonight. Let me jog back another 200m"

Apples and oranges if you're not keeping distance the same in a hypothetical

[mickb]

DBCA have got it wrong. Most people do because they dont know any different. Not the first time and wont be the last.
Remember, these are not written by the "government", they are written by a public servant. And they certainly get many things wrong.

Most of the information is taken off national Standard Operating Procedures, which are written by people who have never used firearms to any degree. They are pretty good researchers though.

Note that in the accompanying photo, it was only the uppermost shot that killed the animal. The others, including those shot between the eyes, and at the X between the ears and eyes, all failed to kill the animal.

Interesting pic but just wondering the details of that shoot mate. Who shot the animal four times before killing it and how did they get 4 shots without it running off? The file attachment says 357 as well. If it was penned, a farmer with a 22LR could do a better job I am thinking, or was it an experiment?

Firstly, it was no experiment but real life, in the field shooting of injured/sick cattle. Shot with a .357 rifle with 180gr soft points at about 10m

By experiment I meant the other three shots mate, I assumed once it was dead someone did 3 more shots to test the angles.

[mickb]

If your using a light caliber then the brain shot needs to be very well placed but if your using something with more penetration power even if you accidently went under the brain the associated shock , wound channel and penetration into the neck spine area will take them out quickly .

So I don't necessarily agree with what your saying ,,,,,, as this dog proved.

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100_5846.JPG

Always exceptions I guess, certain amount of people survive head shots too, even into the brain.

Reminds me a mate on the gold coast in the police said they got called to deal with a scumbag who had bleeding lump near his hairline. X-rayed at the hospital and it turned out to be a 38 special lead round nose about a bees dick from his brain.

[bladeracer]

LOL, some buy say 223 and try to emulate 243. Should have just bought a 243 in the first place. You can load them down much easier than loading them up. LOL

An animal getting hit with an 85gn bullet at 2700fps doesn't much care whether it was launched from a .243 at 300m or a .223 at 100m though.

Uh I've never lined up a fox at 100m and gone "hang on a minute, I've got the 243 tonight. Let me jog back another 200m"

Apples and oranges if you're not keeping distance the same in a hypothetical

I was specifically comparing apples (.223) to oranges (.243), in the same hypothetical situation - shooting medium game. If you have a .223, and you don't have a .243, you can still get a similar result by getting closer to your target. Much the same as using reduced loads in the .243. Primarily, if you're out hunting foxes and rabbits with 35-55gn bullets and see some goats, pigs, deer you don't have to take a risky shot with a too-light bullet, drop in an 80gn load and stalk closer to your target. I generally stalk with reduced loads, I only drop full-noise loads in when I need them. I don't need 4000fps to drop a fox 40m away.

[bladeracer]

Always exceptions I guess, certain amount of people survive head shots too, even into the brain.

Reminds me a mate on the gold coast in the police said they got called to deal with a scumbag who had bleeding lump near his hairline. X-rayed at the hospital and it turned out to be a 38 special lead round nose about a bees dick from his brain.

My mum's chihuahua took a .22LR into the centre of his chest, travelled the length of his body and exited alongside his tail root. Lived to a ripe old age with no complications.

Sometimes bullets, and their wounds, just don't behave the way they're supposed to.

[JohnV]

If your using a light caliber then the brain shot needs to be very well placed but if your using something with more penetration power even if you accidently went under the brain the associated shock , wound channel and penetration into the neck spine area will take them out quickly .

So I don't necessarily agree with what your saying ,,,,,, as this dog proved.

100_5849.JPG

100_5847.JPG

100_5846.JPG

Always exceptions I guess, certain amount of people survive head shots too, even into the brain.

Reminds me a mate on the gold coast in the police said they got called to deal with a scumbag who had bleeding lump near his hairline. X-rayed at the hospital and it turned out to be a 38 special lead round nose about a bees dick from his brain.

I was talking about cows .

[animalpest]

DBCA have got it wrong. Most people do because they dont know any different. Not the first time and wont be the last.
Remember, these are not written by the "government", they are written by a public servant. And they certainly get many things wrong.

Most of the information is taken off national Standard Operating Procedures, which are written by people who have never used firearms to any degree. They are pretty good researchers though.

Note that in the accompanying photo, it was only the uppermost shot that killed the animal. The others, including those shot between the eyes, and at the X between the ears and eyes, all failed to kill the animal.

Interesting pic but just wondering the details of that shoot mate. Who shot the animal four times before killing it and how did they get 4 shots without it running off? The file attachment says 357 as well. If it was penned, a farmer with a 22LR could do a better job I am thinking, or was it an experiment?

Firstly, it was no experiment but real life, in the field shooting of injured/sick cattle. Shot with a .357 rifle with 180gr soft points at about 10m

By experiment I meant the other three shots mate, I assumed once it was dead someone did 3 more shots to test the angles.

No, I think you missed my point. The live animal was shot 3 times with each shot going higher until it hit the brain and died. No experiments, just trying to kill it. Hitting the right spot is crucial. And so is knowing where the right spot (the brain) is.

[Blr243]

A grazier told me there’s a part of the brain u have to destroy for instant kill. He said the word but it’s technical name part of the brain I can’t remember... prior to that I just thought brain shot was just the same. Obviously it matters more if u using a small gun and matters less with a bigger gun

[Fionn]

A grazier told me there’s a part of the brain u have to destroy for instant kill. He said the word but it’s technical name part of the brain I can’t remember... prior to that I just thought brain shot was just the same. Obviously it matters more if u using a small gun and matters less with a bigger gun

Brainstem? disruption of the brainstem is critical for death to occur with a head shot.