variety of game with 223

[Oldbloke]

I think its:
Rabbits
Hares
Foxes
Dogs
Goats
Small pigs
Small fallow

[Hoppa 101]

yeah I dont think Animal pest rattled on at all. He made sense about shot placement on cows heads. On that subject have never head shot one myself. The scrubbers I took long ago were with a 375H&H in the boiler.

I apologise if my choice of language is confusing and I didn't provide enough detail. I assume whatever calibre is in someone's hands that they will make a balanced decision in whatever myriad of situations a shooter can find himself in.
As regards shooting cattle the DBCA firearms training manual will tell you that base of opposite ear to eye is the aiming point. This comes with a caution on using it for older animals due to skull thickness. The alternative is side on between ear and eye. So that's not me saying it, that's the West Australian government.

[Boundry Rider]

What is the DCBA?

[bladeracer]

What is the DCBA?

https://www.dbca.wa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-12/Corporate%20Policy%20Statement%2020%20-%20Departmental%20Use%20of%20Firearms.pdf

[animalpest]

DBCA have got it wrong. Most people do because they dont know any different. Not the first time and wont be the last.
Remember, these are not written by the "government", they are written by a public servant. And they certainly get many things wrong.

Most of the information is taken off national Standard Operating Procedures, which are written by people who have never used firearms to any degree. They are pretty good researchers though.

Note that in the accompanying photo, it was only the uppermost shot that killed the animal. The others, including those shot between the eyes, and at the X between the ears and eyes, all failed to kill the animal.

[animalpest]

This is a side on depiction of where those bullets were aimed.

Note the actual position of the brain - it is much higher up than what people (including DBCA) will tell you.

[animalpest]

Side on view

[Oldbloke]

Mmmm, that's interesting.

I would have thought a 223 following the path of the top red line, just below the brain would still kill the beast.

Because of lots of hydrostatic shock. Etc.

[Hoppa 101]

DBCA have got it wrong. Most people do because they dont know any different. Not the first time and wont be the last.
Remember, these are not written by the "government", they are written by a public servant. And they certainly get many things wrong.

Most of the information is taken off national Standard Operating Procedures, which are written by people who have never used firearms to any degree. They are pretty good researchers though.

Note that in the accompanying photo, it was only the uppermost shot that killed the animal. The others, including those shot between the eyes, and at the X between the ears and eyes, all failed to kill the animal.

The public servant who runs this training course is an extremely experienced shooter and trainer. His program includes helicopter shooting for feral control. I'd put that and my own experience up against "I know a bloke who shot a cow once" any day. Looking at that photo drawing a line from the top of the ears to the opposite eye you're pretty much in line with the kill shot. Given we don't know the angle of the cows head and hence the angle of bullet entry you really are picking at straws.

[Blr243]

That’s a good pic ap demonstrates the size of the brain and how high it sits. Certainly higher than I expected... Next time we are out in the bush and we sees cattle skull on the ground it’s a good idea to have a closer look ...precise brain location in cattle has ever been crucial for myself think I have only shot 3 /4 in my life. Usually sick animals close range

[bladeracer]

That’s a good pic ap demonstrates the size of the brain and how high it sits. Certainly higher than I expected... Next time we are out in the bush and we sees cattle skull on the ground it’s a good idea to have a closer look ...precise brain location in cattle has ever been crucial for myself think I have only shot 3 /4 in my life. Usually sick animals close range

We have a full-grown cow in our compost since last year. Should be digging into it quite soon and I do intend to bisect the skull for future reference. I didn't have to shoot this old girl though. We also have a very hefty hermaphadite calf in another pile that I did have to shoot last year, and I want to bisect that skull to see what track the bullets travelled.

[animalpest]

DBCA have got it wrong. Most people do because they dont know any different. Not the first time and wont be the last.
Remember, these are not written by the "government", they are written by a public servant. And they certainly get many things wrong.

Most of the information is taken off national Standard Operating Procedures, which are written by people who have never used firearms to any degree. They are pretty good researchers though.

Note that in the accompanying photo, it was only the uppermost shot that killed the animal. The others, including those shot between the eyes, and at the X between the ears and eyes, all failed to kill the animal.

The public servant who runs this training course is an extremely experienced shooter and trainer. His program includes helicopter shooting for feral control. I'd put that and my own experience up against "I know a bloke who shot a cow once" any day. Looking at that photo drawing a line from the top of the ears to the opposite eye you're pretty much in line with the kill shot. Given we don't know the angle of the cows head and hence the angle of bullet entry you really are picking at straws.

I was a firearms instructor in the WA government long, long before DBCA even picked up a gun. And that included chopper shooting. Experienced shooters still get it wrong. Nothing wrong with that - its what these forums are for.

Other game animals have different locations of the brain. People take one location and assume all animals have the same anatomy, but they don't.

The same can be said for the location of the lungs, eg pigs and camels

[Blr243]

Blade. If it’s had a bandsaw ( and didn’t mind donating some wear on the BLADE ) ....sometimes I think I’m funny. You could give us a nice cross section photo of that skull. ... perhaps

[Blr243]

Blade. If it’s had a bandsaw ( and didn’t mind donating some wear on the BLADE ) ....sometimes I think I’m funny. You could give us a nice cross section photo of that skull. ... perhaps

[Blr243]

I have seen plenty of scrub bulls and tame cattle looking at me but Never had the intention of shooting them. Never seen a buff in the field but on pics and vids they always seem to be loooking at the hunters with outstretched necks and the skull angle seems Incredibley Shallow at much flatter than cattle. I imagine there’s a strong chance of a glancing bullet. I am guessing a guide would never encourage this shot and prefer a broadside animal. ... does anyone have experience in this situation if u had to take a frontal brain shot. Can it work I placed perfectly?... I have intentions to hunt buff just curious

[Blr243]

Sorry mick b. Am wandering a bit off subject

[bladeracer]

Blade. If it’s had a bandsaw ( and didn’t mind donating some wear on the BLADE ) ....sometimes I think I’m funny. You could give us a nice cross section photo of that skull. ... perhaps

For sure, if I can get some decent pics out of it I'll certainly share them.

[animalpest]

I have seen plenty of scrub bulls and tame cattle looking at me but Never had the intention of shooting them. Never seen a buff in the field but on pics and vids they always seem to be loooking at the hunters with outstretched necks and the skull angle seems Incredibley Shallow at much flatter than cattle. I imagine there’s a strong chance of a glancing bullet. I am guessing a guide would never encourage this shot and prefer a broadside animal. ... does anyone have experience in this situation if u had to take a frontal brain shot. Can it work I placed perfectly?... I have intentions to hunt buff just curious

Yep, got much personal experience in that one. If you have a decent bullet with high SD then smack buff in the nose.

I have a pic that I will try to find that had my dad shoot a buff bull that was looking straight at him. Hit it with a .44 mag at 80 yards and dropped it. Ruger Deerstalker with open sights.

Shot a buff bull with a 30/06 with 180gr Grand Slam when looking at me. Recovered bullet weight was 83%. Shot distance was 30m. Bullet was under the skin at the back of the skull. Still have it.

You can get glancing off because of the angle, or the bullet will skid before entering.

With cattle you don't have the same issue as buff.

As far as a .223 causing hydraulic shock near the brain of cattle, think of it this way - you shoot a roo thats looking at you with a .223 - the bullet goes low and hits it in the nose. The energy is fully transferred a couple of inches from the brain but the roo hops off. Hydrostatic shock should kill it according to the armchair experts. Nope. Hydrodrolic shock is non existent. Energy was the equivalent of a hard punch.

You need penetration

[bigrich]

Thanks for sharing your experience and insights AP .

[mickb]

yeah I dont think Animal pest rattled on at all. He made sense about shot placement on cows heads. On that subject have never head shot one myself. The scrubbers I took long ago were with a 375H&H in the boiler.

I apologise if my choice of language is confusing and I didn't provide enough detail. I assume whatever calibre is in someone's hands that they will make a balanced decision in whatever myriad of situations a shooter can find himself in.

I didnt find your choice of language confusing. Your said he was rattling on and I said well I didnt think he was rattling on. Pretty straight forward really.

[mickb]

Sorry mick b. Am wandering a bit off subject

not at all mate, all part of an interesting subject

[Bello]

Hi All

My 223's are my go to calibre
I have worked up a load for two different projectiles. They shoot about an inch at 200 meters for me in my rifles.
The most commonly used projectile I use is a 55gr V-max travelling about 3200FPS
The second is a Sierra 55gr spitzer boat tail (Super roo) game king.

The V-max, I use on thin skinned prey, never further than 200 meters for me
The sierras I use on tougher animals, small pigs if I don't have any larger calibre at hand. At close ranges. The below pig was shot with a 223.
Having said that, it is important to take every situation and determine what I will do at the time.
I wouldn't shoot a large pig with my 223, a large deer etc etc.
I rudely interrupted this foxes dinner with a 55gr V-max.
I have take the bulk of my deer with the 223.

The above are MY experiences and reflect MY hunting situations ONLY. I believe a well placed shot with a well constructed projectile in a fit for calibre rifle is more important in all hunting applications.

[animalpest]

Agreed Bello.

In order of importance is bullet placement, bullet performance and energy.

On goats, small/medium pigs it becomes more important when using the .223

[mickb]

Thanks Bello, great post. So the super roo projectiles go okay then? I picked a couple of boxes up when I bought my 223 last year just because they were so cheap, not thinking much of them. I take it they are slightly better for larger game in the 223 then also.

[animalpest]

I use a lot of the super roo in .223 rifles. They are are "general use" bullet and work fine.

[bladeracer]

I use a lot of the super roo in .223 rifles. They are are "general use" bullet and work fine.

Super Roo is the Sierra Gameking.
SuperRoo is #SB1365K
Sierra Gameking 55gn SBT is #SB1365 - same bullet marketed to us.
https://www.sierrabullets.com/product/22-caliber-55-gr-sbt/

It and the Hornady RooMax are both very under-appreciated bullets purely because they do them in very cheap bulk packs.
Great bullets.

RooMax is #22666
Hornady 55gn SPBT is #2266 - same bullet marketed to us.
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/22-cal-224-55-gr-sp-with-cannelure#!/

[bigrich]

55 vmax for me . outstanding accuracy . good terminal performance on grass hoppers as well

[animalpest]

I've shot 500 roos in the last 7 nights so bulk packs preferred for me that suit my .222 and .223

[bigrich]

I've shot 500 roos in the last 7 nights so bulk packs preferred for me that suit my .222 and .223

I’ll never get to do that sort of culling in my life. Culling from my perspective is a nesessary job that needs to be done in a humane manner. I don’t mind looking for foxes and cats however, as our local wildlife is much better off without them being around. In practical use AP, do you see any practical difference between the 222 and 223 in the field? Off a bench at the range I found the 222 to be more naturally accurate. I’d imagine 223 being a little quicker with a slightly heavier projectiles as being less susceptible to wind drift at extreme distance.

[mickb]

DBCA have got it wrong. Most people do because they dont know any different. Not the first time and wont be the last.
Remember, these are not written by the "government", they are written by a public servant. And they certainly get many things wrong.

Most of the information is taken off national Standard Operating Procedures, which are written by people who have never used firearms to any degree. They are pretty good researchers though.

Note that in the accompanying photo, it was only the uppermost shot that killed the animal. The others, including those shot between the eyes, and at the X between the ears and eyes, all failed to kill the animal.

Interesting pic but just wondering the details of that shoot mate. Who shot the animal four times before killing it and how did they get 4 shots without it running off? The file attachment says 357 as well. If it was penned, a farmer with a 22LR could do a better job I am thinking, or was it an experiment?