.303 shooting

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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 28 Jun 2022, 3:14 pm

Border_Bloke wrote:Last time I owned a .303 you could still get Aussie surplus MKVII ball ammo at about $4 for a 32 round box...


I've never even seen MkVII for sale :-)

I have bought some milsurp ammo of various types when I've seen it, but not for shooting, I only shoot my own reloads.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 28 Jun 2022, 3:44 pm

Has anybody trialled both methods of loading the chargers for a long enough time to determine if one consistently works better?
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 29 Jun 2022, 9:21 pm

My mate got his reloading gear today, as well as powders and primers, so he came over this arvo and had a crash course in making .303 ammo.
I got a surprise when I opened the Winchester W748 powder as it's so fine, almost looks like iron filings compared to the extruded ADI powders I'm used to.
I jumped on Google and found some pics on various forums that do confirm it should look like this, but it'd be nice to have it confirmed by somebody that is using it themselves. If this is how fine their rifle powders are what do their pistol powders look like?
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Load data (via PM from a member here, thanks for that!) has AR2206H (H4895) loads as well as W748 loads, which makes for a nice comparison. The data list AR2206H with a 174gn FMJBT on 33.6gn at 2200fps, 35.5gn at 2300fps, 37.4gn at 2400fps. I'm using 36gn making 2200fps and 38gn making 2282fps. For W748 they list 36.4gn at 2200fps, 38.2gn at 2300fps, 40.0gn at 2400fps.
So we made three rounds on 38gn of W748 to measure the velocity. We went and set up but I decided it was far too overcast to get any chrono data. He's left me his rifle so I can shoot them tomorrow to get the velocity, but I think we'll have to up it to 40gn.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by in2anity » 30 Jun 2022, 8:24 am

I used 37gr 06H the 174grSMK - feels milder than a full case of AR2209 that the codgers use. Never got great scores with my 303 though - probably mostly a bedding problem however...
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by Bidgee » 30 Jun 2022, 9:06 am

Interesting thread. Hadnt heard of LERA before. Do you need to be a member to shoot and Rankins Springs? Never knew there was a range there.

That powder looks like 748. I've loaded it and 760, but not for many years, and from memory they are both flattened ball powders. They meter a lot better than extruded ADI powders but not sure they are as temp stable.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 30 Jun 2022, 5:05 pm

in2anity wrote:I used 37gr 06H the 174grSMK - feels milder than a full case of AR2209 that the codgers use. Never got great scores with my 303 though - probably mostly a bedding problem however...


I wish I could get the SMK's.
I enjoy the 150gn SP on 36gn of AR2206H, very pleasant to shoot and accurate.

But LERA want 174gn bullets. The suggested load was 39gn of AR2208, which is just above ADI's starting load and 3gn short of max. Would likely be around 2100fps to 2150fps in my rifle I would guess.

I prefer to work with AR2206H though as I have tons of it. 38gn is ADI's listed max, but getting well short of their 2446fps expectation. I think I'd need to push it up to 39.5gn to see that.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 30 Jun 2022, 6:50 pm

Bidgee wrote:Interesting thread. Hadnt heard of LERA before. Do you need to be a member to shoot and Rankins Springs? Never knew there was a range there.

That powder looks like 748. I've loaded it and 760, but not for many years, and from memory they are both flattened ball powders. They meter a lot better than extruded ADI powders but not sure they are as temp stable.


I knew about LERA in the UK but didn't know we had a local chapter until last year. Not sure they've been around very long. No, you don't need to be a member.
Next shoot is 16/17 July.
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15rds at 300yd and 15rds at 500yd is a bit light for an eighteen-hour round trip though so I'm not planning to get there. If my mate is up for it though I might be tempted to go with him.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by Gun-nut » 30 Jun 2022, 8:26 pm

bladeracer wrote:Has anybody trialled both methods of loading the chargers for a long enough time to determine if one consistently works better?


From experience and what I've read online, loading the chargers symmetrically (down, up, down, up, down) works with military brass as the rim is bevelled to alleviate rim-lock. With modern brass, loading the chargers staggered works best as they don't have the bevelled rims of the military mkVII stuff.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 30 Jun 2022, 9:25 pm

Gun-nut wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Has anybody trialled both methods of loading the chargers for a long enough time to determine if one consistently works better?


From experience and what I've read online, loading the chargers symmetrically (down, up, down, up, down) works with military brass as the rim is bevelled to alleviate rim-lock. With modern brass, loading the chargers staggered works best as they don't have the bevelled rims of the military mkVII stuff.


I've read and seen that S&B has a reputation for rim-lock in .303. I have had an occasional one but I don't think I've had significant problems with it as yet. We did compare PPU with S&B today and the S&B brass does have a sharper top edge. If it is a problem I might chuck them in a drill and give them a touch with a file perhaps. I load them conventionally, down-up-down-up-down.

I prefer not to run my milsurps as hot as this so I'm keeping 500 pieces of PPU separate just for this stuff.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 30 Jun 2022, 9:41 pm

Today's test of the three rounds of W748 was disappointing :-)
Round one was fine, three-inches high at 50m, but no velocity reading.
Round two was fine, an inch and a half higher, and a reading of 2048fps, more than 150fps less than the load data suggested.
Round three went fffttt, and pushed the bullet about 7mm into the rifling. The back of the bullet is still just over .311", the front of the bullet got swaged down to just under .311", about half a thou.
Extracted the case and it was still full of powder.
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Some of it has burned but a large lump was just melted together, very strange. No gas out around the case either, usually when I have a squibbed bullet I can hear the gas pressure bleeding out of the action - this had no pressure at all.

I can't work out if the powder is bad, or perhaps just a dud primer with not enough flame. I would've expected even a poor flame would ignite the powder though, and even bad powder should've still burned away.

We're going to load some with 40gn and try again, maybe we just got a bad primer.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by in2anity » 01 Jul 2022, 11:11 am

bladeracer wrote:
in2anity wrote:I used 37gr 06H the 174grSMK - feels milder than a full case of AR2209 that the codgers use. Never got great scores with my 303 though - probably mostly a bedding problem however...


I wish I could get the SMK's.
I enjoy the 150gn SP on 36gn of AR2206H, very pleasant to shoot and accurate.

But LERA want 174gn bullets. The suggested load was 39gn of AR2208, which is just above ADI's starting load and 3gn short of max. Would likely be around 2100fps to 2150fps in my rifle I would guess.

I prefer to work with AR2206H though as I have tons of it. 38gn is ADI's listed max, but getting well short of their 2446fps expectation. I think I'd need to push it up to 39.5gn to see that.


AR2208 is in many ways the perfect compromise - less "perceived" recoil than 09, and a little safer than 06H in the SMLE, particularly under a 174gr. I'd say 90% of the 303 handloaders under the MRCA run AR2208. It's a decent fullbore powder as well so versatile for "cross-disciplines". I still like my 06H because it's good for other applications, and intermediate caliber, as you well know. Nevertheless my latest experiment is 07 under 125gr out of the 762 :D
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by N.Field » 02 Jul 2022, 1:44 pm

bladeracer wrote:Has anybody trialled both methods of loading the chargers for a long enough time to determine if one consistently works better?


I've only ever done it like this - it's always worked fine for me.


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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 02 Jul 2022, 4:29 pm

N.Field wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Has anybody trialled both methods of loading the chargers for a long enough time to determine if one consistently works better?


I've only ever done it like this - it's always worked fine for me.


Image


Yep, that's how I load and use them as well.
I'm not that bothered but I was loading up thirty of them the other night and thought I'd ask the question.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by Vince24 » 02 Jul 2022, 5:46 pm

Across the shooters in France, the 303 Lee-enfields have the reputation of being a bit fussy, like an old English car,
Fussy with screws torques, with the woodwork, with the powder loads.

And on that latter point, now that I have started to reload, I understand the reputation!

In my first 4 ladder tests of my reloader life (i.e. M38 in 6.5, 1903, Mauser FN in 30.06), I was doing increments of 0.5gn with very consistent good results, several powder loads giving the same good results for each rifle. I was just embarassed in picking the preferred load.

And then I did a ladder test with my scoped P14 in 303 Brittish...:
AR 2208, from 38gn to 41gn, increments of 0.5gn, 4 shots in each group.
SMK 174gn (as long as they last...),
OAL 3.075
Remington cases, neck sized.
100m (I usually do the test at 50m, but this specific rifle has a scope)

Oh my ... The inconsistency from one powder load to another in the 0.5 increments was just incredible!!!

And globally the outcome was really bad, until I went to the 40.5gn load, which gave unexpected excellent results on the four shot group, and then confirming 2 weeks later in 2 five shots at 100m: there was 4 impacts touching each other in one group and 3 impacts touching each other in the other group, with just 1 awfull flyer.

So I keep 40.5gn of 2208 in mind for this rifle, and will do furthers testings, maybe trying 40.3 and 40.7. maybe trying different bullet depths as well to get closer to the land.

But my feeling is that with 303 brits, you've got to load a lot of rounds in different powder weights, and do lots of tests!
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by in2anity » 02 Jul 2022, 6:55 pm

Vince24 wrote:Across the shooters in France, the 303 Lee-enfields have the reputation of being a bit fussy, like an old English car,
Fussy with screws torques, with the woodwork, with the powder loads.

And on that latter point, now that I have started to reload, I understand the reputation!

In my first 4 ladder tests of my reloader life (i.e. M38 in 6.5, 1903, Mauser FN in 30.06), I was doing increments of 0.5gn with very consistent good results, several powder loads giving the same good results for each rifle. I was just embarassed in picking the preferred load.

And then I did a ladder test with my scoped P14 in 303 Brittish...:
AR 2208, from 38gn to 41gn, increments of 0.5gn, 4 shots in each group.
SMK 174gn (as long as they last...),
OAL 3.075
Remington cases, neck sized.
100m (I usually do the test at 50m, but this specific rifle has a scope)

Oh my ... The inconsistency from one powder load to another in the 0.5 increments was just incredible!!!

And globally the outcome was really bad, until I went to the 40.5gn load, which gave unexpected excellent results on the four shot group, and then confirming 2 weeks later in 2 five shots at 100m: there was 4 impacts touching each other in one group and 3 impacts touching each other in the other group, with just 1 awfull flyer.

So I keep 40.5gn of 2208 in mind for this rifle, and will do furthers testings, maybe trying 40.3 and 40.7. maybe trying different bullet depths as well to get closer to the land.

But my feeling is that with 303 brits, you've got to load a lot of rounds in different powder weights, and do lots of tests!


A p14 or m17 in good condition should shoot far better than your average No4 or SMLE - they have a heavier barrel, and are siimply a better design. My m17 is not really that fussy about handloads, although it does seem to tighten up a little with a stouter load. I once videoed myself ladder testing it: https://youtu.be/RBWe6jUMb_c that gun has shot a 49/50 on a fullbore mound before.

Also here’s a nice little deliberate stage someone filmed (I had my camera pointed at the target) https://youtu.be/GdAIPp2HFOU - that gun is truly accurate.

I've also at times shot p14's on the prone mound and they seemed equally as accurate - very consistent. Same goes with most mauser actions TBH, simply a better design, just more conducive to more consistent groups :unknown: Long live the Swede!

Getting back to Lee Enfields - in my experience weird groupings out of a Lee Enfield usually stem from the kingscrew aka mainscrew and/or degraded bedding. And yes, it's a bloody tough slog keeping them tuned up. After much adjustment, I got my No4 shooting ok (weekly service rifle), then it had a long sleep in the safe (after I moved to Mauser actions). We've since had a lot of rain on the East coast of Australia and the humidity seems to have absolutely wrecked my tuning on that rifle - the gun is all over the place once again. Yay back to the drawing board :unknown:

Sure handloads come into it - but your primary node should be a whole grain wide at least.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 02 Jul 2022, 7:46 pm

Much appreciated, Vince24.
I have read lots of stories about SMLE's and No.4 Rifles "changing" every time you strip them - very annoying indeed :-)
Is your P14 drilled and tapped or are you using a non-drill mount on it?

I have done no load development at all in my .303's.

My No.4Mk1* was the first .303 I bought.
My first loads were 153gn cast Lee bullets making 700fps, then I played with the 100gn XTP at 1600fps and 2600fps.
The rifle came with over 400 old Super bullets, 173gn and 174gn SP's. I loaded both types up on 36gn of AR2206H and they both grouped very nicely for a .303, making 2150fps, so I just loaded a pile of them at that.
Then I tried the 150gn Hornady SP on the same 36gn charge and they shot even better so I stuck with it, and this is my preferred load for fun and accuracy, and price. The 150gn SP is also accurate on a Trailboss charge at 1500fps.
I also tried the 123gn .312" Berry's Copper-Plated bullet, unfortunately it doesn't stabilise in my .303's or 7.62x54R's, it would make a great cheap load (as it does in the M1903A3). I should try these on a larger charge of AR2206H as some more pressure might obturate them enough to better fill the bore.

The 174gn/36gn and the 150gn/36gn loads both shoot fine in both my No.Mk3*'s so I haven't bothered trying to develop anything better. I don't get much thrill out of shooting Lee Enfield Rifles, and accuracy is nothing like a modern rifle anyway, I just shoot them for pleasure. If I could get the 174gn SMK I'd be more inclined to try to develop a "precision" load. I was surprised that both SMLE's shoot the same load 150fps slower than the No.4 Rifle. The No.4 chamber is slightly shorter than my SMLE's, but my mate's SMLE is even shorter still.

When I discussed with LERA about joining them it was my intention to use the No.4 Rifle and the 150gn Hornady loads. Turns out they're not so much a Lee Enfield Rifle Association as an SMLE/MkVII association :-)
So I have to use an SMLE, which is fine as I dislike the shape of the No.4 Rifle stock compared to the SMLE, it's just that the aperture sight lets me shoot the No.4 Rifle more effectively.
It also transpired that through LERA I met a bloke that lives five-minutes from me that attends their shoots, but wants to learn to load his own ammo. I have a lot of different bullets for the .303, and a few moulds, but LERA wants a 174gn jacketed bullet at close to MkVII velocity. I have a few different 174gn bullets, but not enough to do load development in three rifles, and resupply from Sierra, Hornady, Speer, etc looks spotty at best.

So I chased up Bruce Bertram and Scott Driver for bullets, both are local, and both can turn out more bullets if I need them (if they don't have any stock on hand). That's a big plus in this instance. Scott makes them to order, which means there is a lead time. So far I'm quite impressed with Bruce's bullets.

So far I've concentrated on chrono testing to get the velocities up around 2300fps. MkVII is supposed to make 2440fps out of an SMLE, but I don't have any to chronograph. If they did make that out of my SMLE they'd probably be pushing 2600fps out of my No.4.

Has anybody chronographed MkVII out of an SMLE and/or No.4 Rifle?

I have zero interest in playing with any bullet that is fussy about bullet jump, that's just annoying, in any cartridge. It's a reminder though that I haven't measured the lands in my mate's rifle yet. I've loaded 200rds of this 38gn load for testing in my SMLE. I log every shot that I fire so I'll monitor group sizes and velocities and see how consistent it is. I suspect it'll be just fine for military competition, so I'm not considering further development just yet. I'm hoping Driver's bullet will shoot just as well on the same charge.

I will also be trying this load in My No.4, but due to the shorter chamber I'll keep my S&B brass separate for it and save the PPU stuff for the SMLE's.



Vince24 wrote:Across the shooters in France, the 303 Lee-enfields have the reputation of being a bit fussy, like an old English car,
Fussy with screws torques, with the woodwork, with the powder loads.

And on that latter point, now that I have started to reload, I understand the reputation!

In my first 4 ladder tests of my reloader life (i.e. M38 in 6.5, 1903, Mauser FN in 30.06), I was doing increments of 0.5gn with very consistent good results, several powder loads giving the same good results for each rifle. I was just embarrassed in picking the preferred load.

And then I did a ladder test with my scoped P14 in 303 Brittish...:
AR 2208, from 38gn to 41gn
SMK 174gn,
OAL 3.075
Remington cases
100m (I usually do the test at 50m, but this specific rifle has a scope)

Oh my ... The inconsistency from one powder load to another in the 0.5 increments was just incredible!!!

And globally the outcome was really bad, until I went to the 40.5gn load, which gave unexpected excellent results on four shout group, and then 2 weeks later in 2 five shots at 100m: there was 4 impacts touching each other in one group and 3 impacts touching each other in the other group, with just 1 awfull flyer.

So I keep 40.5gn of 2208 in mind for this rifle, and will do furthers testings, maybe trying 40.3 and 40.7. maybe trying different bullet depths as well to get closer to the land.

But my feeling is that with 303 brits, you've got to load a lot of rounds in different powder weights, and do lots of tests!
Last edited by bladeracer on 04 Jul 2022, 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by Vince24 » 02 Jul 2022, 9:26 pm

I am still pretty new in reloading, so it would not come to my mind not to properly do the ladder test and go bold on any random load!
Especially that so far I have seen the best loads were generally not in the "super mild" area.

As a next stage I want to start using the OAL gauge but it's more out of curiosity.

The P14 has a no drill x6 scope, with the cheapest ring. It came with the rifle at a good price ($500 with dies and cases!). I will remove it and replace it with the military sight once I will be finished with load testings (which may take a while given the number of rifles I need to reload for!).

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So the below is the pictures of the 2 five shot groups at 100m - a few clicks between the 2 groups to go down and left (but not enough cliks on the left)
Some awful flyers (??) but also some very well grouped impacts - 4 and 3 respectively.

IMG_4124.jpg
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One of the next rifles I need to do a ladder for is a 303 SMLE sporter. Think given this one is very light, I may give a go to 2206H to reduce recoild coupled with my remainings 174gn. I will be back to 2208 for my Long Branch, but I think I will just test the 39.5-41 grain area.

Re 303 projectiles

- Cleavers still lists the SMK 174 (expensive 439/500) but you think they are not in stock anymore?
- Bertram and other local makers: how expensive is it?
- The 150gn 303 projectiles: which one would you recommend? I found some Sierra 150gn and some Speer 2217, have you tried them?

Btw those LERA people seem to be the Talibans of the Lee-Enfields. I am quite happy with the relaxed rules of the Canbera military firearms club!

Edit: oups I think my pictures are too big
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 02 Jul 2022, 10:44 pm

Your groups are in the right ballpark. Military competitions use bulls around two to three minutes so you don't need sub-minute accuracy. The 200m target for example is 475mm wide with a 240mm 5-ring. There is no V-ring.
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I have asked Sam Cleaver twice and he doesn't know when they can expect stock of the SMK. I'm also on several mail lists that should notify me if they come into stock anywhere.

Bruce Bertram's bullets are $50/100, ($535 with postage for 1000). Scott Driver's are $75/100 ($400 for 500 with postage).

I prefer the Hornady 150gn SP, Cleaver had them on special occasionally for 500rd packs so I bought lots. But I haven't found anybody with current stock. I have the Speer 150gn HotCor as well, but only have about 500 left.

Bruce Bertram and Scott Driver both offer 150gn flat-base bullets for the .303 as well as the 174gn.
Email both of them and ask.
Bertram Bullets - b.bertram1@bigpond.com
Scott Driver - driverbullets303@gmail.com

I don't especially mind that LERA wants me to use the SMLE, or 174gn bullets. It's their club so they can set whatever rules they want. But I think they'd have more of a turn out if they relaxed it. They do allow you to shoot with other milsurp rifles but I don't think they give you points or awards for them, or something like that. I know a guy has been shooting the comps with a Mauser of some kind. They also have an additional class for modified rifles. I think the club is quite new, so their rules probably aren't set in stone yet. On the other hand, I'm not a fan of people shooting military competitions with "girly loads" as that, to me, goes against the spirit of shooting this type of competition. 80-90% of the military load energy levels is enough to take the stress off these old rifles and still maintain a decent level of recoil I think. I think the accuracy required does tend to rule out cast bullets though.

It does annoy me that their competition shoots are only a few dozen rounds. It makes it very difficult to justify eighteen hours of driving, $450 worth of fuel, and two or three days away from the farm. I can shoot the same competition here at home in an hour for no time or dollar cost. I haven't been there yet so I don't know what facilities they have. I assume they can shoot to at least 450m but they might have more than that available. The range is at Rankins Springs, four-hours west of Canberra.

Military MkVII with the 174gn FMJ at 2440fps makes 2300ft-lb of muzzle energy, and about 14.25ft-lb of recoil.
Dropping the velocity to 2315fps drops the muzzle energy to 90%, down to 2070ft-lb (this is the region I'm aiming at), and 12.4ft-lb recoil. Dropping the velocity down to 2180fps drops the muzzle energy to 80%, down to 1840ft-lb - and about 11ft-lb recoil.

A 150gn bullet needs 2630fps to make the same 2300ft-lb of energy (about 13.5ft-lb recoil). It needs 2490fps to make the 90% energy level (12ft-lb), and 2350fps to make the 80% energy level (10.4ft-lb).

The 100gn XTP needs 3220fps to make 2300ft-lb (10.5ft-lb).




Vince24 wrote:I am still pretty new in reloading, so it would not come to my mind not to properly do the ladder test and go bold on any random load!
Especially that so far I have seen the best loads were generally not in the "super mild" area.

As a next stage I want to start using the OAL gauge but it's more out of curiosity.

The P14 has a no drill x6 scope, with the cheapest ring. It came with the rifle at a good price ($500 with dies and cases!). I will remove it and replace it with the military sight once I will be finished with load testings (which may take a while given the number of rifles I need to reload for!).

The attachment IMG_4142.jpg is no longer available


So the below is the pictures of the 2 five shot groups at 100m - a few clicks between the 2 groups to go down and left (but not enough cliks on the left)
Some awful flyers (??) but also some very well grouped impacts - 4 and 3 respectively.

The attachment IMG_4124.jpg is no longer available


One of the next rifles I need to do a ladder for is a 303 SMLE sporter. Think given this one is very light, I may give a go to 2206H to reduce recoild coupled with my remainings 174gn. I will be back to 2208 for my Long Branch, but I think I will just test the 39.5-41 grain area.

Re 303 projectiles

- Cleavers still lists the SMK 174 (expensive 439/500) but you think they are not in stock anymore?
- Bertram and other local makers: how expensive is it?
- The 150gn 303 projectiles: which one would you recommend? I found some Sierra 150gn and some Speer 2217, have you tried them?

Btw those LERA people seem to be the Talibans of the Lee-Enfields. I am quite happy with the relaxed rules of the Canbera military firearms club!

Edit: oups I think my pictures are too big
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 03 Jul 2022, 7:48 pm

I did find some chrono testing of 1940/1941 MkVII ammo, but in a No.4 Rifle.
The 1940 made 2470fps, the 1941 made 2400fps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zn-StKsMN8
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 06 Jul 2022, 2:46 pm

We loaded three more test rounds with 40gn of W748, which is the max load according to Hornady, and we seated them .100" deeper to 2.975" to try to reduce the empty volume in the case.
Too overcast again to get velocities but all three fired fine and all three hit a sheet of paper at 50m, so the velocities are reasonably consistent. He's going to load up 20rds or so and we'll see if they actually group.

I don't like the W748 at all, particularly for this purpose. Even a 40gn charge barely fills the case above halfway. You couldn't inadvertently drop a double charge without spilling some powder, but if you were working at the lower end, around 30gn I think it might be possible to dump a double charge in, seat a bullet, and end up with a 60gn bomb.

He's using the beam scale, and beam scales are very accurate, and consistent. But they can be complex to read and set to the correct weight (last week on FB, photos were posted of a Model 29 with the top strap blown off and half the cylinder missing because "14gn charges" were accidently loaded on a beam scale set to 24gn). The Lee uses a ball bearing to set the "tens", and even that is possible to accidently bump to the "30" or "50" position when trying for 40gn. Even working right on 40gn, you still have to ensure the singles and tenths scale is set to the far left, and again, these are easily bumped while trying to remove and replace the pan. A beam scale does not reset to zero like a digital scale in between weighing each charge, it simply rests out of balance until you have almost the "correct" charge in the pan, then it floats up toward the index mark. Being able to choose a powder that almost fills the case makes this a non-issue, if you accidently weigh a 45gn or 50gn charge it's going to overflow the case and be obvious, if you weigh a 30gn or 35gn charge it's just going to be light, but won't cause any safety issue. With the W748 you could easily dump a 50gn charge into the case and not even notice unless you are watching for it.

So, we need check weights for every charge weight we're throwing - how do we do that effectively I wondered.
It occurred to me that nowadays everybody has standard A4 copier paper around the house, even if it's printed matter that's come through the mail. So I grabbed a blank sheet and weighed it at 77.5gn. I also weighed some different pages and saw weights from 76.5gn up to 84gn for a full page of printed text, so there is some degree of variation in weight depending on how the paper was made - despite it all being nominally 80gsm. The nominal weight of an A4 page of 80gsm is 4.9g, exactly 77gn.

I think it's close enough that if I cut a sheet of copier paper so it weighs exactly 40gn, I can pass that measurement to somebody else and they can cut a sheet of paper the same size, fold it up, and use it as a check weight for their scale.

Basically, assuming 77gn weight for an A4 page:
Is 810mm2 per grain weight.
Thus, 40gn is 32,400mm2.
The square root being 180mm - cut a page 180mm square and it'll weigh 40gn.
This works up to 44.1gn, then the square becomes more than 210mm, the width of an A4 page.
Alternatively, every 3.86mm of page (210mm wide) weighs 1gn.
Thus 40gn is 154.3mm of page.

Now, is it precise enough?
If you have a page that is 75gn, the weight will be 831mm2 per gn.
Cutting the 75gn page to 154.3mm would give a weight of 38.96gn - just one grain short.
An 80gn page 154.3mm check weight would be 41.56gn - 1.56gn over.

I think it's near enough to prevent being out by more than a couple of grains.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by Vince24 » 07 Jul 2022, 10:49 pm

According to GRT, a 303 round loaded with 2208 and the Sierra SMK flies at 2494 ft/s with 40.5 grains and 2406 ft/s with 39 grains.

But anyway, I am not obsessed with reproducing any specific military ammo. I just try to be approximately in the same type of projectile weight.

Cheers,
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 08 Jul 2022, 11:00 am

Vince24 wrote:According to GRT, a 303 round loaded with 2208 and the Sierra SMK flies at 2494 ft/s with 40.5 grains and 2406 ft/s with 39 grains.

But anyway, I am not obsessed with reproducing any specific military ammo. I just try to be approximately in the same type of projectile weight.

Cheers,
Vincent


Calculations are purely theoretical, you need to put it over a chronograph to confirm it.

Yep, I don't even try to get close to mil-spec in my milsurps, they did their duty decades ago, now they're retired and just having fun :-)
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 08 Jul 2022, 11:46 am

Cold and wet today but I need to get out and shoot 10rds as part of my case-life test.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 12 Aug 2022, 5:52 pm

After a very long wait I have 500 174gn bullets from Scott Driver.
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My initial impression is that they look good :-) I transferred them into plastic boxes (exactly 500) and kept 100 aside for measuring, which I'll hopefully get to over the weekend.
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And a quick comparison with Bruce's bullet.
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The base is a sharper edge which may require some extra care during seating, we'll see.
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There is some variation in the depth of the hollow points, a few are full to within 1mm of the tip, others are up to 4mm deep.
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And there is some variation in the size of the point.
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Can't wait to get out and see how they shoot. I'll load them on the same 38gn AR2206H charge to start with.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by in2anity » 12 Aug 2022, 6:44 pm

174 gr flat base - that’s kinda different blade. That’ll be a nice low recoil load.
I'm a "salt on pizza" kinda guy...
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by dnedative » 12 Aug 2022, 7:59 pm

I like those, should shoot very well in just about any barrel.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by Vince24 » 16 Aug 2022, 11:47 pm

Did you weight a few of them to see for consistency?

My club had some home-made 150gn projectiles from a retired dude in Victoria - The Bullet Factory.
Not only they were cheap (45/100), but they looked very consistent, and the weight was perfectly consistent as well, maximum variation of 0.2gn over 10 tested.
I can ask if the guy is still taking orders.

Just annoying to struggle for projectiles in 303 or 8mm Mauser. The reason why I only want 308w or 6.5 rifles now:)
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by No1Mk3 » 17 Aug 2022, 1:14 am

Vince24 wrote:Did you weight a few of them to see for consistency?

My club had some home-made 150gn projectiles from a retired dude in Victoria - The Bullet Factory.
Not only they were cheap (45/100), but they looked very consistent, and the weight was perfectly consistent as well, maximum variation of 0.2gn over 10 tested.
I can ask if the guy is still taking orders.

Just annoying to struggle for projectiles in 303 or 8mm Mauser. The reason why I only want 308w or 6.5 rifles now:)


G'day Vince24,
Bruce makes 8mm as well as 303. I recently picked up 200 but haven't started loading them as I am still using up the PPU. When I do it will be 8x57 for the Mausers and 8x50R for the Berthiers and Lebel. A friend has been loading them in the Lebel and seems happy with them. Cheers.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 17 Aug 2022, 6:56 am

Vince24 wrote:Did you weight a few of them to see for consistency?

My club had some home-made 150gn projectiles from a retired dude in Victoria - The Bullet Factory.
Not only they were cheap (45/100), but they looked very consistent, and the weight was perfectly consistent as well, maximum variation of 0.2gn over 10 tested.
I can ask if the guy is still taking orders.

Just annoying to struggle for projectiles in 303 or 8mm Mauser. The reason why I only want 308w or 6.5 rifles now:)


I haven't had a chance to do any measurement yet.

I just needed 174gn for this specific competition, I have thousands of .303 bullets already, most of them are 150gn Hornady and Speer.

6.5mm bullets were very hard to find as well last year.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 01 Sep 2022, 4:26 pm

I finally have targets I can shoot at :-)
20220901_155113b.jpg
20220901_155113b.jpg (287.19 KiB) Viewed 1289 times

Huge thanks to G-Swiss!
He made the adjustments to the graphics and printed these for me on a plastic of some kind, looks to be weather resistant and should last a very long time.
I'm over the moon!
He also sent me files to print the middle section of the Figure 11 myself on four sheets of orange A4 pages to replace the middle as it gets shot out.
He's also threatened to do me some stickers of the Metallic Silhouettes at various scales for practicing on when he finds time :-)

And, Hornady .303 174gn FMJ's are back on shelves so I have 500 of those coming as well.
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