.303 shooting

Bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action, self loading rifles and other miscellaneous longarms.

Re: .303 shooting

Post by Larry » 01 Sep 2022, 4:55 pm

The best part of shooting the 303 is using old ammo. The smell of cordite is just so sweet.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 01 Sep 2022, 5:23 pm

Larry wrote:The best part of shooting the 303 is using old ammo. The smell of cordite is just so sweet.


I can't smell so I doubt it matters :-)
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by 6878mm » 02 Sep 2022, 6:14 am

There was an artyicle about making scope mounts for lee enfield on here somewhere, can anybody point mr to it???
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by Vince24 » 02 Sep 2022, 6:38 am

And, Hornady .303 174gn FMJ's are back on shelves so I have 500 of those coming as well.[/quote]

Out of curiosity, where did you get the Hornady 174?

Centreway firearms at 70/100?
There were selling those at 50/100 some 18 months ago, there seems to be a crazy inflation on anything relating to shooting…
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by in2anity » 02 Sep 2022, 8:36 am

Club members are turning up with Bullet Factory pills recently, including some rare 125gr fmjs for the cadets. Their 150gr .310 pill is plenty good enough for any ai 303 sights.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 02 Sep 2022, 9:23 am

Vince24 wrote:And, Hornady .303 174gn FMJ's are back on shelves so I have 500 of those coming as well.


Out of curiosity, where did you get the Hornady 174?

Centreway firearms at 70/100?
There were selling those at 50/100 some 18 months ago, there seems to be a crazy inflation on anything relating to shooting…[/quote]

Yep, John at Centreway.
Pre-covid _everything_ was cheaper. Rebel's old price was $80/100, back when they had stock.
I certainly did not expect them to come available at less than the old price.

I'm buried in rebuilding the cattle crate but I hope to find time to load and test the Hornady alongside Bruce's and Scott's bullets in my SMLE.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 02 Sep 2022, 9:29 am

6878mm wrote:There was an article about making scope mounts for lee enfield on here somewhere, can anybody point mr to it???


What do you mean by "making" scope mounts?
I'm using the Arctic Fox on my SMLE for load development, they do a different mount for the No.4 Rifle.
I replaced the screws with stainless so I could actually tighten them up and it seems to be holding up to the recoil now.
I only need to put about another sixty rounds through the rifle and then I'll remove the scope.
I'm not making a precision load, just need to determine whether one bullet shoots significantly better than the others.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 02 Sep 2022, 9:33 am

in2anity wrote:Club members are turning up with Bullet Factory pills recently, including some rare 125gr fmjs for the cadets. Their 150gr .310 pill is plenty good enough for any ai 303 sights.


I think the 150's tend to shoot better myself, but LERA asked me to run 174's, though I doubt they'd turn anybody away for shooting 150's. I'll have to try the 60gn XTP at 200m and see how that shoots too :-)
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by in2anity » 02 Sep 2022, 9:42 am

bladeracer wrote:I think the 150's tend to shoot better myself, but LERA asked me to run 174's, though I doubt they'd turn anybody away for shooting 150's. I'll have to try the 60gn XTP at 200m and see how that shoots too :-)

for timed events, lower recoil = better score. If a tree falls in the woods... ;)
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 02 Sep 2022, 10:49 am

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I think the 150's tend to shoot better myself, but LERA asked me to run 174's, though I doubt they'd turn anybody away for shooting 150's. I'll have to try the 60gn XTP at 200m and see how that shoots too :-)


for timed events, lower recoil = better score. If a tree falls in the woods... ;)


Yes, but to me that's "gaming" it rather than trying to achieve the best result you can from the equipment that was issued.
I have seen video of the shoots and it seems clear that some are using heavily reduced loads, which is generally my preference, but .303 doesn't beat me up anyway, and the round count from their shoots is very low. My mate has been shooting factory PPU 174gn loads there without any trouble.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by in2anity » 02 Sep 2022, 11:05 am

bladeracer wrote:My mate has been shooting factory PPU 174gn loads there without any trouble.

With a little bit of padding, ideally a SR jacket, recoil is fine. It's more about the recovery speed with followup shots during double and triple snaps. Quick reload, quick settle, slow aim, slow break.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 02 Sep 2022, 12:26 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:My mate has been shooting factory PPU 174gn loads there without any trouble.


With a little bit of padding, ideally a SR jacket, recoil is fine. It's more about the recovery speed with followup shots during double and triple snaps. Quick reload, quick settle, slow aim, slow break.


Yep, not quite how my dad shot the SMLE in '43-'45 though :-)
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by in2anity » 02 Sep 2022, 12:46 pm

bladeracer wrote:Yep, not quite how my dad shot the SMLE in '43-'45 though :-)

Dunno about your dad, but i think that's exactly how they would have been trained to shoot, particularly commonwealth troops on their smellys. "Quick cycle, slow shoot".
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 02 Sep 2022, 1:24 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Yep, not quite how my dad shot the SMLE in '43-'45 though :-)


Dunno about your dad, but i think that's exactly how they would have been trained to shoot, particularly commonwealth troops on their smellys. "Quick cycle, slow shoot".


But without a ridiculous shooting jacket :-)

He was RAF ASR so did bugger all firearms training.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by in2anity » 02 Sep 2022, 1:41 pm

bladeracer wrote:But without a ridiculous shooting jacket :-)

:lol: true true. But a heavy woolen jumper and trench coat will do ;)
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by Oldbloke » 02 Sep 2022, 1:57 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Vince24 wrote:And, Hornady .303 174gn FMJ's are back on shelves so I have 500 of those coming as well.


Out of curiosity, where did you get the Hornady 174?

Centreway firearms at 70/100?
There were selling those at 50/100 some 18 months ago, there seems to be a crazy inflation on anything relating to shooting…


Yep, John at Centreway.
Pre-covid _everything_ was cheaper. Rebel's old price was $80/100, back when they had stock.
I certainly did not expect them to come available at less than the old price.

I'm buried in rebuilding the cattle crate but I hope to find time to load and test the Hornady alongside Bruce's and Scott's bullets in my SMLE.[/quote]

Yep, John & Paul at Centreway are my go to. I must drive past 3 or 4 LGSs to go there. Don't go often as it's a bit of a trip. But I stock up while I'm there. Always very reasonable prices. And Paul is a real character. :lol: :lol:

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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 02 Sep 2022, 8:31 pm

Put some targets on MDF, and got ten rounds each of Driver's and Hornady's 174gn bullets for testing tomorrow. Same 38gn charge of AR2206H.

Also checked if the screws were still tight on the Arctic Fox mount, got just a few degrees on both screws but they were pretty tight.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 03 Sep 2022, 3:04 pm

Made a very simple target frame just now.
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Three pieces so it's cheap, very light, lays flat, and is not too awkward to carry up the paddock. The main frame is a simple U-frame of 6mm rod, sprung so you pull it apart to slot the target in then it hangs onto it. I made the "U" 580mm tall and 600mm wide so it'll hold boards 600mm or taller. A couple of big nuts on each side to drop over the bayonets on the A-frames simply because I couldn't be arsed looking for some tube :-)
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The targets are held in by short lugs of 6mm rod welded to the U-frame. Will fit 6mm MDF or anything thinner.
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A pair of A-frames with bayonets on top to drop things over. Was considering putting some feet on it but I thought it might be better to have the option of spiking them into the ground in case of wind - I'll see if that works.
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If it works I'll make some more in different sizes.
Cost about $20 in steel from Bunnings and some welding rods.
https://www.bunnings.com.au/australian-handyman-supplies-6-3mm-x-2m-steel-round-bar_p0917435
https://www.bunnings.com.au/metal-mate-10mm-x-3m-galvanised-steel-round-solid_p1130456

Also grabbed some more .22LR ammo this morning just for testing.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 04 Sep 2022, 12:26 pm

lee_enfield223 check your private messages.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 05 Sep 2022, 7:39 pm

Got out this arvo to test the Driver's and Hornady's alongside the Bertram's.
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First I fired a 5rd group with each but I wasn't happy with my shooting position so didn't place much value on the groups.
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I started with the Hornady and although I don't think I pulled any, the one to left may have been. Then the Driver's in which I badly pulled one shot, then the Bertram's which were fairly neat. The bloody safety is flicking itself back under recoil with every shot though. I remade my position and taped the safety out of the way for the second round. I also made a scope adjustment as all three were shooting to the right.
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The Bertram's are my case life test brass. I trim them all to 2.217" every time before loading. After the fifth firing they've stretched to 2.218" to 2.219", after neck-sizing they're 2.220"-2.221", so another .003" trimmed off them - that's a total of .022" minimum now trimmed off these. No obvious external indication of separation though yet. This 6rd group of Bertram's was the final group, and it was off to the right again so it's possible the scope mount moved. I didn't have any more ammo with me to check it though, and the group itself wasn't terrible.
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The Driver's bullets shot pretty well also.
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And the Hornady's were very good.
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I received another 500 Hornady's this morning. They're bulk that are rebagged in plastic. Two bags tore in postage but were encased in bubblewrap so none went astray. I boxed them in 50rd plastic boxes.
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The 38gn AR2206H load seems pretty good with all three bullets so I'll load some more of each and try them again. They don't shoot to the same point so they're not interchangeable, but with a sight adjustment to suit, any of them will be more than adequate for this sort of competition, or for hunting.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by Vince24 » 06 Sep 2022, 7:35 am

Always interesting, the load testing and shooter’s methodologies.
You said 38gn gave good results, what range of loads have you tested?
Also, if the rifle is scoped, why not testing at a longer range than 50m from the beginning?
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 06 Sep 2022, 11:30 am

Vince24 wrote:Always interesting, the load testing and shooter’s methodologies.
You said 38gn gave good results, what range of loads have you tested?
Also, if the rifle is scoped, why not testing at a longer range than 50m from the beginning?
Cheers, Vincent


36gn and 38gn. 36gn is the "standard" load I'm using with the 150gn so I used it to get a base velocity with the 174's, and I already explained my methodology for choosing that, I saw a two-digit number starting with a three floating by on the breeze so I grabbed it. Velocity was too low so I upped it to 38gn and it was good. If I decide I do need some more out of it I can seat the bullet another .100" or more, but I think I'm happy with where it is now.

As for distances, I didn't have any faith the scope mount would work, so I started at 50m, and the mount didn't work so I had to remove it. Now that I replaced the screws it appears to be holding zero quite well, although, as I mentioned, it's possible it shifted at the final round of the Driver group as the Bertram group is quite a long way to the right. The odds are steep that it could choose that specific shot to move, and still throw a decent group, but it's possible, and I didn't have any more ammo to test it with. It was also handy that I had a bench set up from testing the Aguila 60gn .22LR ammo at 50m at the house. And, being a .303 it doesn't shoot such tiny groups that you wouldn't be able to tell that one bullet or charge shoots better than others at 50m. The groups I shot yesterday are hanging around 30-35mm or two-minutes, which I'm pretty happy with. A neighbour currently has his horses roaming the paddocks near the house, and I hate shooting around horses, they're mental. So I'm shooting in the bush on our middle block, where it's isolated from wind. This restricts me to having to shoot prone, lying downhill while shooting uphill, which is far from comfortable. Until I can clear some dead branches well above head height I'm working with the limitation. I'm sure I can shoot the branches off with 12ga. birdshot but I keep forgetting to grab a gun when I take the rifles out there. Once I clear those then I can take a standing and sitting bench out there and should be able to clear foliage to stretch it to 200m, and still be isolated from the wind. A neighbour has Parkinsons and is a lifelong smallbore competition shooter (still licenced), so I want to make this spot accessible and comfortable to take him out there as well.

The plan now is to shoot perhaps ten or twenty rounds of all three loads at 50m to see if one bullet is measurably and consistently tighter than the others. Then pull the scope zero the iron sights to that one at 200yd/180m - the closest military shoot I'm aware of is shot at 100yd, but only requires holding a few inches low on the target with a 200yd hold.

The Hornady is looking better to me so I'll likely use that one for actual competition and use the Bertram and Driver for practicing.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by in2anity » 06 Sep 2022, 11:45 am

Your groups aren't terrible - about standard for a No1. Probs around 4moa? (which was spec). Patterning looks pretty ok. Time and again i witness the POI change over a couple of stages as the barrel heats, particularly noticeable at distance. Not sure about the AF mount - I've not had a lot of luck with them myself. A few very experienced shooters have told me they won't do much better than "minute of man" at 300m, but I'm not convinced it's the mount, rather the hot barrel.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 06 Sep 2022, 12:51 pm

in2anity wrote:Your groups aren't terrible - about standard for a No1. Probs around 4moa? (which was spec). Patterning looks pretty ok. Time and again i witness the POI change over a couple of stages as the barrel heats, particularly noticeable at distance. Not sure about the AF mount - I've not had a lot of luck with them myself. A few very experienced shooters have told me they won't do much better than "minute of man" at 300m, but I'm not convinced it's the mount, rather the hot barrel.


Yes, I was surprised when I measured them to find they were tighter than they looked. Excluding the fliers I called, the groups with the Driver and Hornady are around 32mm, or just over two-minutes, the 6rd Bertram group is only 43mm. The 4rd Hornady group is 28mm.

The first three groups were fired resting across my jacket folded across a log. But I couldn't get my shoulder and wrist into anything resembling a comfortable position so the butt was not against my arm or shoulder, I had my left hand supporting the toe of the butt and it was free recoiling.

I went and got a couple more logs from the pile to make an adjustable pyramid, then spent fifteen minutes trying to determine the height I found most comfortable. If I get my shoulder too high then I can't roll my wrist enough to feel the trigger pull, if I get too low it pulls my palm away from the stock. Prone unsupported is much easier as I just allow my broken body to fall into its own comfortable position :-) The last three groups were shot rested directly on a log with my left hand wrapped around my right bicep and the toe rested in the V of my thumb. It's an SMLE in .303, not a precision rifle. A better load will group maybe two-inches at 100m, a poor one will group maybe three or four inches, which should be obvious without requiring a Lead Sled :-) If I remember I could take the MTM shooting rest up for the final group test.

I'm not impressed with the Arctic Fox mount either. Replacing the screws has made it fairly usable for load development, but is not something a customer should have to worry about. It has now held zero over 42rds, which is long enough for a deer shooter I guess, but I don't have enough confidence in it to ever take it hunting - I would have more confidence in the iron sights - even with the SMLE that offers you three front sights to choose from :-)

The mount is held in place by jamming it longitudinally between two unmachined cast surfaces of the receiver, so it's never going to be a precision fit. If either of those surfaces has the slightest negative slope the screws are going to walk up the slope. Even a slight positive slope should lock it in nicely, but that generally requires filing such a slope into the surfaces, which defeats the entire purpose of spending $200 on a mount to avoid damaging the rifle. I did check the screws again and got another few degrees into them, but perhaps after a few hundred rounds it might finally settle in, who knows. I only need it for a few more groups. I could try it on the second SMLE but that would entail removing the PH aperture sight.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 06 Sep 2022, 7:47 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb63q7c1Q0Y
Shooting the last few rounds yesterday.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by in2anity » 06 Sep 2022, 9:36 pm

bladeracer wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb63q7c1Q0Y
Shooting the last few rounds yesterday.


Position looked pretty comfortable - easy1.5moa stance probably better. Maybe even pushing 1moa if the gun was up to it…. which I feel they aren’t :sarcasm:
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 06 Sep 2022, 10:14 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb63q7c1Q0Y
Shooting the last few rounds yesterday.


Position looked pretty comfortable - easy1.5moa stance probably better. Maybe even pushing 1moa if the gun was up to it…. which I feel they aren’t :sarcasm:


It wasn't at all comfortable :-)
My neck was cricked all the way back, my right shoulder was very sore, my right wrist was twisted badly, and no cheek weld with the scope :-)
Once I get the scope off it'll be a more natural and comfortable position.
Where I've laid out to practice 180m and 270m on the military targets is better, though I still want to do some digging to build a mound to lie on. But there is virtually always a strong wind blowing along the valley from nine-o'clock.

Without ear muffs, shooting over those logs really took the sting out of the shot too, thinking I might build a log wall with loop holes to shoot through rather than over the top.

I know it's possible to build a one-minute SMLE, but "as issued", no chance :-)

Mildura has a cool shoot coming up:
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 07 Sep 2022, 10:28 pm

Only fired 15rds of Bertrams today mainly to check the scope. I took a table and bags out today which was far more comfortable and far more stable.
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I think any issues now are due entirely to the scope mount shifting.

G wanted to test his W748 loads as well.
First three went fine, then number four went fffttt again, bugger, another melted turd of powder left in the case.
Lodged the bullet 12mm into the rifling and I didn't take a rod out with me.
I filled the barrel with .22LR cartridges to push on the bullet but it needed more than I was willing to put into it :-)
He's going to shoot some more in hopes that that might've been the last bad one, and then try some filler material to try to keep the powder against the primer. If that doesn't work we'll try magnum primers, and then I think we'll give up on Winchester powder and switch to AR2206H.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 08 Sep 2022, 5:55 pm

The reason I closely monitor .303 case stretch is due to articles like this one.
https://303british.com/more-on-case-resizing-the-303testing-brass/

"Fifteen once-fired REM-UMC cases were full length resized, trimmed to 2.210″ and fired with full power loads until they grew too long for safe chambering. Each of the three groups of five cases were sized either full length, partial or neck.

As expected, the full length sized cases were the first to stretch past the point of usefulness. They stretched to nominal length of 2.220″ upon the first firing. After three firings the cases had reached a length of more than 2.260″ and were hitting the end of the chamber, which could interfere with bullet release. Partial sized cases did not reach the critical length of 2.260″ until after ten firings. Neck sized cases were fired 25 times before they were too long for the chamber-quite a difference!"

Considering this test sample had already been fired factory loads, to make another .050" after just three more firings seems extreme, but perhaps he was loading at least as hot as factory, maybe hotter. Twenty-fire firings though is also extreme I think, even neck-sizing. But I'll keep loading and firing the same ten cases until they fail.
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Re: .303 shooting

Post by bladeracer » 14 Sep 2022, 9:32 pm

bladeracer wrote:He's going to shoot some more in hopes that that might've been the last bad one, and then try some filler material to try to keep the powder against the primer. If that doesn't work we'll try magnum primers, and then I think we'll give up on Winchester powder and switch to AR2206H.


We got out again this arvo.
G loaded ten rounds each with magnum primers, and on standard primers, with an over-powder card of tissue paper then loose dacron filler. All twenty fired just fine, though the dacron left floating fibres in the air about two metres in front of the muzzle - like you get blowing on a dandelion :-)
But hopefully the magnum primers have fixed the issue of the W748 melting rather than burning. Groups were all around 1.5".

I fired my case life test rounds for the sixth time and they are starting to get tight, so probably best to bump the shoulders every five firings. I'll bump them just enough to chamber before loading them again. Measuring after firing they have stretched no more than .001", so after bumping and neck-sizing probably another .003" to trim off I guess.

Then I tried my 1932 M91/30, starting with five rounds of subsonic 174gn which was very pleasant after the .303 :-)
At 50m they dropped about 200mm lower than the full-power loads, which were about 80mm high. Then we each put ten rounds of full-power loads through her. These are old 174gn Super SP's on 40.5gn of AR2206H and both of us grouped them around 1.75". I'll load up some Bertram's, Driver's and Hornady's for her and see how they shoot.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
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bladeracer
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