Has Howa cornered the market for cheap centrefire rifles?

[jwai86]

I get that Howa rifles are incredibly popular in Australia because they don't cost a lot, but are good enough for most shooters, and have plenty of scope for aftermarket customisation. However, it also occurred to me that they don't seem to have much competition within the entry level or value for money niche. Are there other rifles that compete well in the same space, or is Howa the only decent game in town?

[in2anity]

Umm Ruger?

[deye243]

Savage and at least 2 more that I can't think of atm

[dnedative]

Making a bolt action rifle costs sweet f*** all if your making them on a production line these days, they are dead simple to make - Howa were probably the first to actually retail them for something a lot closer to a normal profit margin. Without a doubt it spoiled the party for a lot of other manufacturers but they have all cottened on to the idea. Actions are typically all made from bar stock, same as the bolts, machined on CNC equipment and then heat treated. Think of all the complex cheap s**t you can buy today in comparison - $700 65" 4K TV's and chainsaws for $500.

Howa, Ruger, Mauser, ATA, Savage all sell cheap stuff that goes pretty good.

[Shootermick]

Ruger will give them a run. Not in the heavy barrel stakes though, Howa has that one to itself.

[bigpete]

I don't know about ruger vs howa, I do know dads ruger 223 American ranch rifle is a complete box of snot to use compared to my weatherby vanguard, had a horrible trigger,horrible bolt,and a horrible magazine. Will confess it still shoots pretty good and it is light, but then I'm comparing a brand new plastic gun with a short arsed barrel to a 20 odd year old all wood and steel rifle with a 24" barrel. I know weatherby isn't howa but they're virtually the same.

[bladeracer]

I get that Howa rifles are incredibly popular in Australia because they don't cost a lot, but are good enough for most shooters, and have plenty of scope for aftermarket customisation. However, it also occurred to me that they don't seem to have much competition within the entry level or value for money niche. Are there other rifles that compete well in the same space, or is Howa the only decent game in town?

Being Japanese, I think it is very hard to be disappointed with the Howa M1500, but I prefer the Ruger American myself. There are still a few other offerings in the sub-$1000 range - Savage, Mauser, Sauer, Remington spring immediately to mind. Ruger and Howa have to be the two main choices though.

I haven't seen the M1100 .22LR in the flesh yet, but I think I'd be willing to grab one of those as a PRS Rimfire base. I rarely if ever see it mentioned anywhere, but that may just be covid related rather than a deficiency in the design.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/howa-m1100-first-impressions.7023847/

[solarpak]

The Howa M1500 has been available for over 30 years - and is a copy of one of the early model Sako rifles (wont get into specifics)
Being a push feed action with dual-opposed locking lugs, it hasn't got the 60-degree bolt throw so many rifles have these days. Its as close to an all-steel design it its standard format with the floor plate - only the follower is polymer and the rest either steel or alloy.
The achilles heel on the howa is the weight of the barreled action(talking about the standard sporter) with the Mini action, Semi-heavy barrel and varmint options being lighter or heavier as such. Stocks - the italian walnut option sourced by OSA is the best combination of functionality and weight at a reasonable price - and looks good too. The Hogue over moulded rubber unit passes muster - just but if you want a decent stock, you need to look at Bell & Carlson, HS Precision - which are available in Oz. McMillan make a great stock (if you can find them second hand ) and then you have the carbon fibre stocks........so the options are many. I have two Howa sporters both with McMillan stocks and suitably scoped they all weight less that 4kgs.
Having said that i have shot many a Howa rifle with the bog standard Hogue stock and have never had a problem - they are good for hunting but are not a benchrest stock (where many folk get let down )

Competition to Howa - The Ruger American is a nice rifle , as was the old Marlin XS/XL rifles that were simple but accurate. The Mossberg is still available as is the Savage - in their entry level models and they do the job if you need a hunting rifle that will be used a few times a year. The Mauser M18 and Sauer 100 can be found sub $1K and they are a nice rifle too
Look after any rifle and it will last a long time .
C.

[jwai86]

Being Japanese, I think it is very hard to be disappointed with the Howa M1500, but I prefer the Ruger American myself.

What do you like about the Ruger American?

[bladeracer]

Being Japanese, I think it is very hard to be disappointed with the Howa M1500, but I prefer the Ruger American myself.

What do you like about the Ruger American?

I particularly like the Ruger American's recoil lug system that isolates everything from the stock, even the magazine doesn't touch the action. Also their choice of chamberings. And their cold hammer-forged barrels that they manufacture in-house. I'm a Ruger fan

[likeimjohnwayne]

I haven't seen the M1100 .22LR in the flesh yet, but I think I'd be willing to grab one of those as a PRS Rimfire base. I rarely if ever see it mentioned anywhere, but that may just be covid related rather than a deficiency in the design.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/howa-m1100-first-impressions.7023847/

I was in the market for my first rifle and was keen on the M1100 as it was actually 'in stock'. The salesman at my LGS recommended the Ruger American Rimfire as the M1100 is Howa's first attempt at a rimfire rifle. Funnily enough my first centrefire rifle will most likely be the Howa 1500.

[SCJ429]

Can you buy just the Howa action and trigger? Buy yourself a quality barrel and you have a very capable rifle.

[Die Judicii]

Can you buy just the Howa action and trigger? Buy yourself a quality barrel and you have a very capable rifle.

As in ???

For a hunting rifle that can (and does) cloverleaf,,,,,,, what more do you want in regard to "quality" barrels ??

[dnedative]

The barrel on a Howa is a good thing, might not be on par with a Kreiger but for a <$1000 rifle they shoot very well.

[jwai86]

I particularly like the Ruger American's recoil lug system that isolates everything from the stock, even the magazine doesn't touch the action. Also their choice of chamberings. And their cold hammer-forged barrels that they manufacture in-house. I'm a Ruger fan

I liked using the Ruger GP100 revolver, but after reading about various QC issues with the Ruger American Rimfire and Savage Mark II rifles, and the rolling disaster that is Remington, I feel a bit wary about American manufacturing quality.

[bladeracer]

I particularly like the Ruger American's recoil lug system that isolates everything from the stock, even the magazine doesn't touch the action. Also their choice of chamberings. And their cold hammer-forged barrels that they manufacture in-house. I'm a Ruger fan

I liked using the Ruger GP100 revolver, but after reading about various QC issues with the Ruger American Rimfire and Savage Mark II rifles, and the rolling disaster that is Remington, I feel a bit wary about American manufacturing quality.

I have two Ruger American Rimfires, can't think of any issues with them.

[solarpak]

For the Howa M1500 barrelled action to be in production for over 40 years - they must be doing something right.

Enough said....

C

[jwai86]

I have two Ruger American Rimfires, can't think of any issues with them.

Which models are they?

[SCJ429]

The barrel on a Howa is a good thing, might not be on par with a Kreiger but for a <$1000 rifle they shoot very well.

Some of the worst machining I have seen has been on Howa barrels. I rate the actions but the barrels are junk.

[Shootermick]

I have two Ruger American Rimfires, can't think of any issues with them.

Which models are they?

The question wasn’t aimed at me, but…
I’ve got Ruger American in 22 and 22 mag compact. 10/22 semi auto, and 243 compact. No complaints about any of them, I’d buy another Ruger tomorrow

[deye243]

The barrel on a Howa is a good thing, might not be on par with a Kreiger but for a <$1000 rifle they shoot very well.

Sorry but i disagree Some of the worst machining I have seen has been on Howa barrels. I rate the actions but the barrels are junk.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree since the howa came out l have had between myself and my son's 13 Howa barrelled actions not including the smith & Wesson and the Aus mountaineer .
We put them into Boyds stocks that we bought when we had parity with the American dollar for $99 and not one of them shot over three-quarter moa and that's everything from 7mm Remington Magnum all the way down to 223 .
Dollars spent accuracy gained as far as I'm concerned they even beat the tikka as I had recently sent back a tikka varmint 223 that would not shoot for s**t .
But that's just my experience sometimes looking down the Rabbit Hole just leads to more problems just look at any of the cleaning threads on the American forums who cares if you remove all the carbon all the copper if you're shooting 5 inch groups at 1000 yards you don't have a problem

[deye243]

The barrel on a Howa is a good thing, might not be on par with a Kreiger but for a <$1000 rifle they shoot very well.

Some of the worst machining I have seen has been on Howa barrels. I rate the actions but the barrels are junk.

And on another note when I had friends working in the Melbourne firearms industry 10 to 15 years ago some of the worst machining and chatter i have ever seen in a barrel were in Savage varmint and varmint Precision barrels yet they still manage to shoot some of the tightest groups for a factory rifle I've ever seen .
It is like that rabbit hole of 22 Rimfire machining tolerances a lot of the time don't mean crap find batch of ammunition that works in your rifle hang on for the ride you're going to win.

[bladeracer]

I have two Ruger American Rimfires, can't think of any issues with them.

Which models are they?

Mine are the Ruger American Rimfire Compact,
https://ruger.com/products/americanRimfireCompact/specSheets/8303.html
and the Target,
https://ruger.com/products/americanRimfireTarget/specSheets/8348.html
https://enoughgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=8123
and I have the Ruger Precision Rimfire as well.
https://ruger.com/products/precisionRimfire/specSheets/8400.html
Both the Compact and Target are now in MDT LSS chassis.

Ruger American Rimfire MDT LSS.jpg (203.69 KiB) Viewed 3536 times

I've been practicing on steels with the RPR this week with the scope and iron sights, 120mm gongs at 94m, 119m, 151m, 179m and and a 150mm gong at 201m. I walked up the paddock and randomly put a gong in the ground at intervals. They were too small to lase them so I had to guess the distances. When I went up to photograph them afterwards I lazed back to the shooting position to confirm the distances. I hid the first one behind a clump of thick grass for fun, could barely make it out but didn't have any difficulty hitting it.

20220817_151442b.jpg (276.11 KiB) Viewed 3536 times

20220817_152638b.jpg (279.93 KiB) Viewed 3536 times

20220817_164914b.jpg (263.27 KiB) Viewed 3536 times

100m zero with CCI Standard Velocity.

20220817_164752b.jpg (81.18 KiB) Viewed 3536 times

[bladeracer]

The barrel on a Howa is a good thing, might not be on par with a Kreiger but for a <$1000 rifle they shoot very well.

Some of the worst machining I have seen has been on Howa barrels. I rate the actions but the barrels are junk.

Does this "machining" make any difference to how well they shoot though?

[jwai86]

Both the Compact and Target are now in MDT LSS chassis.

Were the original factory stocks any good?

[bladeracer]

Both the Compact and Target are now in MDT LSS chassis.

Were the original factory stocks any good?

Yes, I had no issues with them.
The Compact came with the standard polymer stock. The buttstock is modular with four inserts, two of which come with the rifle. The compact comes with two short length-of-pull inserts with low and high combs for iron sights and scopes. The Standard model comes with two longer length-of-pull inserts with low and high combs. I'm over 6'1" but prefer shorter lengths of pull, possibly due to my right side injuries.
The Target came with the laminated Boyds stock, quite nice but heavier and still has the look and feel of plastic - I'm not a fan of lami stocks. The low comb is not well-suited to scope use though and requires a cheek pad.
I put the four centrefires into MDT chassis so I did the same with the rimfires. One minor issue with the MDT chassis is that the Archangel 25rd (15rd restricted) mags don't fit the magwells. It's possible MDT have addressed that in later chassis productions, I have no idea.

I put several thousand rounds through the Compact before putting it into the Chassis. By the time I got the Target I already had a chassis waiting for it, but I did put a fair few rounds through it before doing the swap.

I prefer the RPR over the MDT chassis though, I find it more ergonomic, and it's easier to fit iron sights due to the rail length.

On the centrefires the poly stocks are very light and flexible. I found that shooting from a bipod tended to twist the forend so that it touched the barrel. Most people address this by stiffening the hollows inside. I prefer a proper pistol grip though so the chassis work well for me. Shooting without a bipod gave me no issues at all.

[SCJ429]

The barrel on a Howa is a good thing, might not be on par with a Kreiger but for a <$1000 rifle they shoot very well.

Some of the worst machining I have seen has been on Howa barrels. I rate the actions but the barrels are junk.

Does this "machining" make any difference to how well they shoot though?

I have seen some 223 Howas that shoot well, and the machining was OK but I have not seen a 308 that could shoot under an inch and copper foul terribly even after several hundred rounds. I would not own a factory barrelled Howa.

[jwai86]

Yes, I had no issues with them.

To be fair, I considered the Ruger American Rimfire as a possible option for a first .22 LR rifle some time ago, but my focus eventually moved to CZ rifles after being advised to look at those if my budget can accommodate the added cost over an RAR or Savage Mark II. I figured that the immense popularity of CZ and Brno rimfire rifles in Australia couldn't be all blind hype.

Anyway, we are significantly digressing from my initial question

[bladeracer]

Yes, I had no issues with them.

To be fair, I considered the Ruger American Rimfire as a possible option for a first .22 LR rifle some time ago, but my focus eventually moved to CZ rifles after being advised to look at those if my budget can accommodate the added cost over an RAR or Savage Mark II. I figured that the immense popularity of CZ and Brno rimfire rifles in Australia couldn't be all blind hype.

Anyway, we are significantly digressing from my initial question

I tend to recommend the Brno Model 2 or CZ452 when somebody is asking about an accurate and aesthetically-pleasing rimfire.
A mate bought the Tikka T1X and the CZ515 and loves both - he also has the RPR.
My neighbour has a Lithgow LA101 which is also a very pretty rifle.

[jwai86]

Returning to the topic of Howa rifles, I know that the floorplate on the older long and short action models can be changed to accept detachable magazines. On the other hand, is there merit in leaving the stock magazine configuration as is?