Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by SCJ429 » 23 Mar 2023, 6:44 pm

in2anity wrote:Seriously, if one is planning on target shooting with factory, they are almost better off obtaining their bulk ammunition BEFORE buying their gun... guns can be sourced, factory ammunition yeah not so much... The good news is OP seems to have chosen 308 - and there's a massive 308 following under the NRAA in the form of TR and F-STD. Go speak with the local NRAA affiliated bodies about bulk 308 match ammo - they will all likely have an fmj dump.

A real world example; we have a talented old timer TR shooter in one of the clubs, who shoots only Winchester 155gr Match factory ammo. He has a bulk quantity of said ammo, that he once bought. Recently, he got a very fancy Palma rifle from Europe, and then had a new chamber cut (with a shorter throat) to pair with his ammo. i.e, the ammo influenced the rifle, (rather than the other way around which normally occurs for handloaders). He still wins matches. :drinks:

I don't agree, the 308 will be tricky to do well with for a novice. I rarely see anyone get spectacular results with this case. I went to a social comp with my fox rifle chambered in 204 Ruger loaded with 39 grain Sierra Blitzkings. We were shooting at 500 in windy conditions and a few 308 shooters said I would struggle in the conditions. I beat all three 308 shooters. I would not recommend it to anyone outside of F Class.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by in2anity » 23 Mar 2023, 8:33 pm

SCJ429 wrote:
in2anity wrote:Seriously, if one is planning on target shooting with factory, they are almost better off obtaining their bulk ammunition BEFORE buying their gun... guns can be sourced, factory ammunition yeah not so much... The good news is OP seems to have chosen 308 - and there's a massive 308 following under the NRAA in the form of TR and F-STD. Go speak with the local NRAA affiliated bodies about bulk 308 match ammo - they will all likely have an fmj dump.

A real world example; we have a talented old timer TR shooter in one of the clubs, who shoots only Winchester 155gr Match factory ammo. He has a bulk quantity of said ammo, that he once bought. Recently, he got a very fancy Palma rifle from Europe, and then had a new chamber cut (with a shorter throat) to pair with his ammo. i.e, the ammo influenced the rifle, (rather than the other way around which normally occurs for handloaders). He still wins matches. :drinks:

I don't agree, the 308 will be tricky to do well with for a novice. I rarely see anyone get spectacular results with this case. I went to a social comp with my fox rifle chambered in 204 Ruger loaded with 39 grain Sierra Blitzkings. We were shooting at 500 in windy conditions and a few 308 shooters said I would struggle in the conditions. I beat all three 308 shooters. I would not recommend it to anyone outside of F Class.


Dunno what “target” shoots you are attending, when was the last time you attended any regular NRAA-affiliated Saturday session? 308 is the only option for the singular most popular NRAA discipline which is TR aka Palma rifle aka fullbore (besides 223 which nobody uses). Commonwealth sport bud. Easily the most common cartridge on literally any fullbore mound. If he’s doing the bench rest thing, then yeah as already stipulated there are better cartridges.

Not to mention service rifle where 762x51 is also most popular.

Nobody is arguing that (by inexperienced target shooters), on paper the 308 is not a little sub-par (by today's standard). But OP has said he got a 308, and that he wants to target shoot with factory - where 308w factory is not a bad value proposition in an expensive world. Put more simply, good luck sourcing a steady stream of factory made 6mm BR. Even 204 factory is significantly more expensive than the ADI 308 WIN 155gr Sierra Matchking cans.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by SCJ429 » 24 Mar 2023, 5:52 pm

Yes I agree with you that the 308 can win competitions where all other cases except the 223 are banned. But that is like saying that the 22LR wins more competitions than any other case. Try going to any 100 metre benchrest competition where any case design is welcome with your 308 and see how you get on. I will put some money on where you place.
Would the OP be better off starting out with a 223, of course he would.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by animalpest » 24 Mar 2023, 9:06 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Yes I agree with you that the 308 can win competitions where all other cases except the 223 are banned. But that is like saying that the 22LR wins more competitions than any other case. Try going to any 100 metre benchrest competition where any case design is welcome with your 308 and see how you get on. I will put some money on where you place.
Would the OP be better off starting out with a 223, of course he would.


Are we talking about bench rest shooting at 100 m or target shooting at 400-500?
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Larry » 24 Mar 2023, 9:09 pm

I have to agree that the 308 is a great cartridge and in a F std rifle will hold its own (not disgraced) against the F open rifles on the same mound.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by in2anity » 24 Mar 2023, 9:11 pm

Larry wrote:I have to agree that the 308 is a great cartridge and in a F std rifle will hold its own (not disgraced) against the F open rifles on the same mound.

Sure does Larry you know it. If the wind holds pretty constant, the F-Stds are no worse than the F-Opens. F-std is a great leveler.
Last edited by in2anity on 24 Mar 2023, 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by in2anity » 24 Mar 2023, 9:22 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Yes I agree with you that the 308 can win competitions where all other cases except the 223 are banned. But that is like saying that the 22LR wins more competitions than any other case. Try going to any 100 metre benchrest competition where any case design is welcome with your 308 and see how you get on. I will put some money on where you place.
Would the OP be better off starting out with a 223, of course he would.

No doubt about it I'd get whipped. The reason being is I don't have a 10-thousand dollar benchrest package, with the neck-turned berger handloads to pair with it. Nope I have Neilson MN600 (upgraded Omark44) that regularly brings home TR possibles with a humble 308 155gr SMK. I paid $1300 for including a new barrel. Got my jacket and sling for free from the lovely old timers. Shoots into the F-class X-ring over a rough sandbag when the wind is behaving. May I remind you, competitive benchrest shooting is but a small segment of the overall picture that makes up target shooting in Australia.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by SCJ429 » 25 Mar 2023, 9:03 am

Larry wrote:I have to agree that the 308 is a great cartridge and in a F std rifle will hold its own (not disgraced) against the F open rifles on the same mound.

No need to apologise for it, it is quite capable but not the choice if you want to win unless you ban the competition.
It would not be my choice for a novice starting out in middle distance shooting. I have coached some guys using 223 shooting at 500 and they have achieved great results in a short time. Easy and cheap to shoot, quality ammo available for the OP who doesn't reload at a better price than anything else.
Not sure why 308 fan boys have to rush to defend their favourite case design every time. :shock:
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by JohnV » 25 Mar 2023, 3:01 pm

Recoil does become a factor when you fire a lot of shots that is why I suggested 6.5 Creedmoor it is very flexible and can be loaded down a bit to a fairly mild recoil but still give good down range ballistics then loaded up max and it's a fair hunting cartridge . The 308 can also be tuned to give good accuracy but the recoil is more tiring . I don't have to defend the .308 it can do that by it's self . Firing a few shots in a hunting situation you won't notice the recoil as much as when shooting more shots from a bench or prone .
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Biscuits » 07 Apr 2023, 2:16 am

500 metres is not that far. Therefore I would base your choice on two things:

1. Ammunition cost
2. The type of target you are shooting at and what is around the target, in the event that you miss

The 223 would be a good choice, however it is a small intermediate energy bullet. In adverse conditions. you will not see bullet impacts. For example, on a dry day you will easily see .22lr impacts in sand at 500 metres. On a wet day, you may fail to spot .308 impacts into grass at the same distance. If you are shooting paper or electronic targets, don't worry about it as you will either have a marker or it will show up on the screen.

The calibers I would recommend based on good availability of a good choice of match ammunition are:

223
6.5 Creedmoor
308

I would not recommend 243 as it is primarily a hunting cartridge and quality factory match ammunition is limited.

EDIT: just saw you bought a 308. Good choice.

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Agreed, get a price on a thousand rounds of .308Win match ammo and decide how seriously you want to shoot factory ammo.

Sickening to think what that would now cost. In a 2021 Queens, a SH shooter decided he was gonna run the Tikka TAC-A1 thingy in 6.5cm... with factory Hornady Match ammo. The quality required to be competative in such an event.

The bloke paid $75/20 box multiplied by eleven boxes - so $825 worth of ammo required just to compete (let alone the cost of practice leading up to the event). Then the entry fee on top was $175 or similar. So it effectively cost him $1000 to shoot that queens. The poor bastard had the event win slip through his fingers on the VERY last stage of day three, due to a couple of inner-4s from nerves. Very expensive mistake considering there was considerable prize money on the line.

He now handloads after that little escapade. :mrgreen: Be smart people.


I use factory ammo, including the 6.5 ELDM you mention. There is no disadvantage, other than cost, for all but extreme ranges. At extreme range, you will get lower SD on your muzzle velocity with home loads which will mean you get less vertical dispersion on your impacts. You can get single digit SD on home loads vs low 10s fps on factory match ammo. However other than extreme range, this doesn't really matter. It definitely doesn't matter at 500 metres. You also mention that nerves cost the match... would home loads have made any difference? Weren't there also people in that event who used homeload ammo who were nowhere near the top?

Most people who home load do so for cost reasons. There aren't many people who can homeload, do load testing and do their own quality control to the degree where they have an accuracy advantage over match factory ammo. When I go to the range with people with homeloads, there is always someone who cannot hit anything. There is also the time cost of home loading. Not just the time doing the home loading itself, but the time and cost of ladder testing and doing load development. Or someone will home load but then turn up with a knock-off Harris bipod and some random rear bag or even no rear bag. Or they will use a dope sheet rather than calculate for atmospherics and their powder temperature - any possible advantage of homeloading goes straight out the window.

>> Only a few Military type rounds have their projectiles Doppler radar tested to gain real flight BC data .
These days almost every match bullet has good doppler radar data to and beyond transonic ranges. Hornady do their own testing and you Brian Litz of Applied Ballistics has measured BC data for just about everything.

FWIW I had a first round impact at 1-mile using factory ammo, quality bipod, quality rear bag and entering everything into the ballistic solver. I've also had a lot of %^&*-ups, but there is minimal non-cost disadvantages of factory ammo if you don't %^&* it up yourself.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Biscuits » 07 Apr 2023, 2:23 am

animalpest wrote:
Are we talking about bench rest shooting at 100 m or target shooting at 400-500?


Each to their own, but BR shooting is only one type of target shooting. There are many other types where they 308 is a perfectly adequate rifle; namely where there are other things going on so that the ultimate in accuracy is never achievable. Namely practical shooting where you need to engage multiple targets at different distances under time pressure. Nobody is using benchrest or F/TR rifles for that.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Biscuits » 07 Apr 2023, 2:27 am

> Please, explain to me the practical difference between the 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5×55 Swedish cartridge. GO.

You can buy many more types of ammo for the 6.5 Creedmoor. You can also buy it more easily.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Lazarus » 07 Apr 2023, 7:49 am

Biscuits wrote:> Please, explain to me the practical difference between the 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5×55 Swedish cartridge. GO.

You can buy many more types of ammo for the 6.5 Creedmoor. You can also buy it more easily.



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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Larry » 07 Apr 2023, 8:06 am

Glad to see the OP bought a 308 I am sure he will get good use out of that rifle. I was going to add that you should also consider where and when you are going to shoot at that range. If it is at a shooting range then will it be in some sort of comp or practice for comp un official training ect. Then it might be more important to match the rifle with the comp / club. The 308 will fit more categories than a 6.5 or other cal.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Biscuits » 08 Apr 2023, 5:36 pm

Lazarus wrote:
Biscuits wrote:> Please, explain to me the practical difference between the 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5×55 Swedish cartridge. GO.

You can buy many more types of ammo for the 6.5 Creedmoor. You can also buy it more easily.



https://www.fieldandstream.com/story/gu ... 5-swedish/



Had read that before :)

The Swede can do anything the Creedmoor can if you home load and have a custom rifle. But if you want to shoot 1200m with a mass produced factory rifle and factory ammo, Creedmoor is the one to get just because more manufacturers make stuff for it.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by animalpest » 08 Apr 2023, 6:11 pm

"Only a few Military type rounds have their projectiles Doppler radar tested to gain real flight BC data .
These days almost every match bullet has good doppler radar data to and beyond transonic ranges."

Sierra Dopler radar test bullets and not just those used for military. And then as you say, "almost every match bullet has good Doppler radar...". :?:
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by in2anity » 11 Apr 2023, 2:29 pm

Biscuits wrote:The Swede can do anything the Creedmoor can if you home load and have a custom rifle. But if you want to shoot 1200m with a mass produced factory rifle and factory ammo, Creedmoor is the one to get just because more manufacturers make stuff for it.

Spot on mate. In an identical package, shooting tuned handloads, I'd bet you'd not pick the difference between the two. Another issue is that the swede reloading specs are generally designed for the antiquated smallring mauser, which cannot handle near the pressures of the modern 6.5cm actions. Alas we digress... the truth is, the 6.5cm has indeed beaten the 308w by one or two integers in the last two SH queens events. Just a fractionally bit easier to use if you are not inclined to watch the wind between shots; which you'll sometimes be able to get away with... sometimes ;)
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by northdude » 11 Apr 2023, 3:42 pm

I recon i can piss further than all you guys :sarcasm:
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by in2anity » 11 Apr 2023, 4:54 pm

northdude wrote:I recon i can piss further than all you guys :sarcasm:

Only if you have a creedmoor with vortex
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by northdude » 11 Apr 2023, 6:01 pm

damn only got a crappy 6.5x55. Not trendy at all :cry:
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by straightshooter » 11 Apr 2023, 6:14 pm

Gee man, get with the vibe.
Creedmore is yesterdays caliber. Erik Cortina's recent win was with a 7mm PRCW so everybody will be flocking to that caliber now.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by northdude » 11 Apr 2023, 7:10 pm

wtf ive just grown my hair so I can have a man bun to go with my creedmore.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Blr243 » 11 Apr 2023, 7:28 pm

I cant even see past 200 m
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Biscuits » 14 Apr 2023, 11:26 am

straightshooter wrote:Gee man, get with the vibe.
Creedmore is yesterdays caliber. Erik Cortina's recent win was with a 7mm PRCW so everybody will be flocking to that caliber now.


All the PRC cartridges are magnums. Might not say magnum on the box, but they have big case capacity and push heavy bullets out fast. The 7mm PRC will be more expensive to run than a Creedmoor.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by northdude » 14 Apr 2023, 3:47 pm

So whats the difference between a 260 and creedmore. From what i can figure out its just a reinvented 260
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Biscuits » 14 Apr 2023, 7:15 pm

^ 6.5 CM is marginally better as it has a higher maximum pressure. It is marginal though (disclaimer- have never owned a .260). But the main benefit for Hornady is it makes them more money. The main benefit for punters is it has made the 6.5 caliber more popular and you can buy more 6.5 or 6.5 Creedmoor stuff.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Apr 2023, 8:07 pm

northdude wrote:So whats the difference between a 260 and creedmore. From what i can figure out its just a reinvented 260

Steeper shoulder angle and less case taper.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Larry » 14 Apr 2023, 9:37 pm

The discussion has descended to the low of debating cartridges and calibers. A totally pointless debate / discussion. The tool or the workman can be added to the list.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by northdude » 15 Apr 2023, 8:48 am

Larry wrote:The discussion has descended to the low of debating cartridges and calibers. A totally pointless debate / discussion. The tool or the workman can be added to the list.

But still keen to chime in with something equally pointless go you ....
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by JohnV » 23 Apr 2023, 7:30 pm

And I said a few years back that shooting in Australia will become more and more over time a rich mans sport and got howled down .
It's happening already .
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