Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

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Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by djmm » 21 Mar 2023, 1:52 pm

Currently I got 22lr for indoor target up to 50m.
Thinking to start going to outdoor range and eventually do 500m range or so.
Haven't got the rifle yet but thinking either 223 or 243 calibre. Which one do you think would be more suitable? Cheers
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by JohnV » 21 Mar 2023, 2:12 pm

I would tend to go 6.5 Creedmoor .
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by in2anity » 21 Mar 2023, 2:39 pm

So long as you run long heavy bullets, driven hard, out of appropriately twisted rifling, many calibers will perform admirably at 500m. Both 223 and 243 running handloads can perform well, so long as the wind is monitored. Such calibers as the 6.5cm or better just means less attention can be paid to the wind, i.e. the cost of a fishy wind to the group is less. Regardless of caliber, don’t ignore the need for an inherently accurate rifle
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Billo » 21 Mar 2023, 3:09 pm

I guess the first question is do you reload ?
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by bigpete » 21 Mar 2023, 3:19 pm

50bmg
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Lazarus » 21 Mar 2023, 3:23 pm

I've used a .223 at 400m with 70gn Nosler RDF, groups averaged 1 1/4"
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by bladeracer » 21 Mar 2023, 3:40 pm

djmm wrote:Currently I got 22lr for indoor target up to 50m.
Thinking to start going to outdoor range and eventually do 500m range or so.
Haven't got the rifle yet but thinking either 223 or 243 calibre. Which one do you think would be more suitable? Cheers


Will depend on what you want to see at 500m, the .303 and open sights is fun at 500m, but keeping every shot on a 1200mm-square target can be challenging. If you're west of Sydney come to Rankins Springs for a look, they even have club rifles if you want to have a go.
If you want hit a Coke can every time though you'll need something else.

I would start with the .22LR, you'll learn an awful lot about dialling elevation and reading the wind.
After shooting 500m with the .22LR you'll see that its not that far at all with a centrefire, an 8"-twist .223 would be fine for most things. Load your own ammo of course so you can use the heavier bullets to defeat wind - wind is the biggest issue with shooting further than about 300m.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by animalpest » 21 Mar 2023, 5:30 pm

Lazarus wrote:I've used a .223 at 400m with 70gn Nosler RDF, groups averaged 1 1/4"


Not too shabby to get an average of 0.3 MOA at 400 with a .223.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by djmm » 21 Mar 2023, 5:35 pm

Thanks for the inputs so far, sorry guys forgot to mention, i dont reload, factory ammo only
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Larry » 21 Mar 2023, 5:55 pm

djmm wrote:Thanks for the inputs so far, sorry guys forgot to mention, i dont reload, factory ammo only


There is probably more factory target ammo available in 243 than 223 However there may be some available from a state rifle association.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Lazarus » 22 Mar 2023, 8:59 am

animalpest wrote:
Lazarus wrote:I've used a .223 at 400m with 70gn Nosler RDF, groups averaged 1 1/4"


Not too shabby to get an average of 0.3 MOA at 400 with a .223.


I thought so.

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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by in2anity » 22 Mar 2023, 9:41 am

nuthin wrong with the 223 for target shooting. Sure it's not mainstream in benchrest circle jerks, but with perceverance and a good overall package including quality, reproducable ammo, it goes great out to middle distance. I regularly use the highly economical 223 for Service Rifle matches; i shoot cheap 55gr sierras at 100m offhand, 69gr SMKs for 200m and 300m service matches, and then switch to 80.5gr Bergers for untimed, single feed application matches (or longer distances on the fullbore range). https://youtu.be/jUmqjsDNfwg
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Larry » 22 Mar 2023, 4:09 pm

in2anity wrote:nuthin wrong with the 223 for target shooting. Sure it's not mainstream in benchrest circle jerks, but with perceverance and a good overall package including quality, reproducable ammo, it goes great out to middle distance. I regularly use the highly economical 223 for Service Rifle matches; i shoot cheap 55gr sierras at 100m offhand, 69gr SMKs for 200m and 300m service matches, and then switch to 80.5gr Bergers for untimed, single feed application matches (or longer distances on the fullbore range). https://youtu.be/jUmqjsDNfwg



Totally agree with you re the cartridge when hand loaded but factory? Same when it comes to the guns I bet he isn't using a F class rifle by any stretch the factory 223 are far from that standard in spec.

Perhaps the 6mm being a more Target accepted round may produce a 243 target round but still I doubt it most of the Target 6mm used would be other short fat cases.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by JohnV » 22 Mar 2023, 4:17 pm

That is why I was thinking 6.5 mm Creedmoor you could maybe buy Hornady Match ammo and it would be loaded better than some of the others that are not so target orientated .
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Bergararse » 22 Mar 2023, 4:46 pm

Might also be worthwhile thinking of costs as well, rounds like the Hornady Match are about $4 each in packs of 20.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by JohnV » 22 Mar 2023, 5:35 pm

True but accuracy is expensive . If he just wants to shoot privately and not compete then there is cheaper ammo . It's hard to say which ammo expensive or cheap will shoot the best you have to try it .
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by SCJ429 » 22 Mar 2023, 6:21 pm

The best calibre by far is some sort of 6mm BR, very hard to beat at that range and even a bit further. If it has to be a factory offering then a 223 in a Tikka Varmint would be a great start of a novice. Get the 1:8 twist barrel and find some ammo using Sierra MK.
The obvious next step would be to learn to reload.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by SCJ429 » 22 Mar 2023, 6:23 pm

Lazarus wrote:I've used a .223 at 400m with 70gn Nosler RDF, groups averaged 1 1/4"

You should get to a 500 metre Fly shoot, if you can shoot like that you will do very well. Unfortunately it can also be very humbling....
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Oldbloke » 22 Mar 2023, 7:03 pm

djmm wrote:Thanks for the inputs so far, sorry guys forgot to mention, i dont reload, factory ammo only


That being the case 223 simply on cost.
You will have to reload to get consistant accuracy.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by djmm » 22 Mar 2023, 8:10 pm

Update on this - it turned out the rifle I want wasn't available in 243 version, and the 223 was version wasn't exactly what I wanted. Ended up putting deposit on the 308 win version - might be overkill and more cost for ammo but I guess at least I won't need to look for another upgrade so quick.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by SCJ429 » 22 Mar 2023, 9:38 pm

You would have done better with a smaller calibre, not too late though.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Baronvonrort » 22 Mar 2023, 10:28 pm

djmm wrote:Thanks for the inputs so far, sorry guys forgot to mention, i dont reload, factory ammo only


I have heard i don't reload before along with i only need a small safe for 1-2 rifles most of the time this changes.

Nothing to fear with reloading on a tight budget lots of decent second hand gear out there haggling ability could make it even cheaper.

Shooting over 300 then BC of projectile becomes a factor. It's not just for bullet drop it also impacts how far the wind will push it sideways.

Some rounds are more accurate than others because the projectiles they shoot have a higher BC which means wind doesn't blow them around as much.
Select a calibre then look for a quality rifle in your budget.

This chart might help the lower the MOA the more accurate that round will be when comparing.

A .223 could be good along with 7mm-08 then something bigger like 28 Nosler which is similsr to 7mm RUM
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by bladeracer » 22 Mar 2023, 11:24 pm

For me, shooting much further than 300m I want to minimise wind drift more than anything else, so the highest BC bullets possible. The wind is the hardest part of shooting at distance, and can take a long time to learn well so try to minimise it whenever possible. 80gn+ bullets in the .223, 105gn+ in 6mm, 140gn+ in 6.5mm. The velocity you give up at the muzzle with the heavier bullet pays dividends at long distances. With laser rangefinders and "bullet drop" reticles the trajectory has almost no relevance nowadays.

.308Win will certainly do the job but it has drawbacks in recoil and cost, both of which will limit how much practicing is realistic. A brake can mitigate most of the recoil, but anybody else in the vicinity won't be happy about it.

If you are serious about either shooting well or shooting a lot you are going to be reloading, you might as well start right away.


Baronvonrort wrote:
djmm wrote:Thanks for the inputs so far, sorry guys forgot to mention, i dont reload, factory ammo only


I have heard i don't reload before along with i only need a small safe for 1-2 rifles most of the time this changes.

Nothing to fear with reloading on a tight budget lots of decent second hand gear out there haggling ability could make it even cheaper.

Shooting over 300 then BC of projectile becomes a factor. It's not just for bullet drop it also impacts how far the wind will push it sideways.

Some rounds are more accurate than others because the projectiles they shoot have a higher BC which means wind doesn't blow them around as much.
Select a calibre then look for a quality rifle in your budget.

This chart might help the lower the MOA the more accurate that round will be when comparing.

A .223 could be good along with 7mm-08 then something bigger like 28 Nosler which is similsr to 7mm RUM
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by JohnV » 23 Mar 2023, 9:18 am

Also the wind angle and speed can be different down range than it is at the gun .
A projectiles potential accuracy is more than just it's BC which is mostly calculated by it's physical external shape . Only a few Military type rounds have their projectiles Doppler radar tested to gain real flight BC data .
Internal construction and how concentric a bullets components are is also very important to group accuracy .
A higher BC will help fight the wind but any internal problems within those bullets can cause extra group dispersion on top of the wind dispersion . Any lack of gyroscopic stability can also make for more spin drift . More expensive longer range bullets should be better made and more consistent . Should be .
No single BC can accurately predict a whole trajectory and when it's calculated there is a whole list of varying BC's all along the trajectory taken at certain velocity intervals . Some manufactures just take the highest BC in the list and print that on the box .
Some do an average of all the BC numbers . Some quote 3 BC's at three different velocity boundaries .
Some bullet shapes are closer to a G5 or G7 drag function but the calculated BC number is always smaller than if they gave the bullet a G1 drag function so they call it a G1 and quote the bigger more impressive G1 number .
Much of the inaccuracy is within the statistical average of how well most people and guns can shoot and the dispersion's caused by wind etc. that for all average hunting use it works .
Here is an example of the same bullet being calculated as a G1 or a G5 notice how unimpressive the BC of the G5 drag function looks but it is more accurate .
CD G1 = .525 BC
JBM array conversion recommended a G5 drag @ .193 BC
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by in2anity » 23 Mar 2023, 12:48 pm

Seriously, if one is planning on target shooting with factory, they are almost better off obtaining their bulk ammunition BEFORE buying their gun... guns can be sourced, factory ammunition yeah not so much... The good news is OP seems to have chosen 308 - and there's a massive 308 following under the NRAA in the form of TR and F-STD. Go speak with the local NRAA affiliated bodies about bulk 308 match ammo - they will all likely have an fmj dump.

A real world example; we have a talented old timer TR shooter in one of the clubs, who shoots only Winchester 155gr Match factory ammo. He has a bulk quantity of said ammo, that he once bought. Recently, he got a very fancy Palma rifle from Europe, and then had a new chamber cut (with a shorter throat) to pair with his ammo. i.e, the ammo influenced the rifle, (rather than the other way around which normally occurs for handloaders). He still wins matches. :drinks:
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by bladeracer » 23 Mar 2023, 3:17 pm

Agreed, get a price on a thousand rounds of .308Win match ammo and decide how seriously you want to shoot factory ammo.

I've fired about 600rds of .303 in about six months, handloaded for just over a buck apiece. Factory PPU is over two-bucks apiece. .308 match grade is probably $4-5 apiece. In that same period I've shot more than ten times as much .22LR, which was $710 a case.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by in2anity » 23 Mar 2023, 3:52 pm

bladeracer wrote:Agreed, get a price on a thousand rounds of .308Win match ammo and decide how seriously you want to shoot factory ammo.

Sickening to think what that would now cost. In a 2021 Queens, a SH shooter decided he was gonna run the Tikka TAC-A1 thingy in 6.5cm... with factory Hornady Match ammo. The quality required to be competative in such an event.

The bloke paid $75/20 box multiplied by eleven boxes - so $825 worth of ammo required just to compete (let alone the cost of practice leading up to the event). Then the entry fee on top was $175 or similar. So it effectively cost him $1000 to shoot that queens. The poor bastard had the event win slip through his fingers on the VERY last stage of day three, due to a couple of inner-4s from nerves. Very expensive mistake considering there was considerable prize money on the line.

He now handloads after that little escapade. :mrgreen: Be smart people.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Oldbloke » 23 Mar 2023, 3:55 pm

Don't fuk around. Start buying reloading gear and components.
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by Shootermick » 23 Mar 2023, 4:32 pm

djmm wrote:Update on this - it turned out the rifle I want wasn't available in 243 version, and the 223 was version wasn't exactly what I wanted. Ended up putting deposit on the 308 win version - might be overkill and more cost for ammo but I guess at least I won't need to look for another upgrade so quick.


What rifle did you go for?
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Re: Target shooting 400m to 500m range, which calibre?

Post by bladeracer » 23 Mar 2023, 4:48 pm

in2anity wrote:Sickening to think what that would now cost. In a 2021 Queens, a SH shooter decided he was gonna run the Tikka TAC-A1 thingy in 6.5cm... with factory Hornady Match ammo. The quality required to be competative in such an event.

The bloke paid $75/20 box multiplied by eleven boxes - so $825 worth of ammo required just to compete (let alone the cost of practice leading up to the event). Then the entry fee on top was $175 or similar. So it effectively cost him $1000 to shoot that queens. The poor bastard had the event win slip through his fingers on the VERY last stage of day three, due to a couple of inner-4s from nerves. Very expensive mistake considering there was considerable prize money on the line.

He now handloads after that little escapade. :mrgreen: Be smart people.


There is a thing happening that if I want to be a part of it will require using factory PPU 174gn .303 ammo _a lot_ to practice for a year leading up to it. We can get a decent discount through the club to buy it but it's still a considerable expense just to shoot a competition. I don't think I'm interested in attending the competition (due to the time and dollar commitment) but I am considering tagging along in the training as an extra pair of hands for a lot of extra shooting. I think the actual competition they said is 500rds so the practicing is going to burn a ton of the stuff.
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