4570 gov distance

[Ramin474]

Considering buying a marlin 4570 primarily for deer / elk hunting, I’ve read so many mixed reviews about the cartridge some love it some say it’s garbage, out to 200 meters would you say it’s a decent cartridge ? I’m wanting to reload down the road when I can actually find primers but for now it would be factory loads. So question is for those that own it, what have you hunted and at what distance? Cheers

[bigrich]

Considering buying a marlin 4570 primarily for deer / elk hunting, I’ve read so many mixed reviews about the cartridge some love it some say it’s garbage, out to 200 meters would you say it’s a decent cartridge ? I’m wanting to reload down the road when I can actually find primers but for now it would be factory loads. So question is for those that own it, what have you hunted and at what distance? Cheers

from what i've experienced and seen with 45-70 they need a decent amount of mass/resistance for good projectile expansion . close range on buff , devastating with handloads . on pigs , complete pass through with little expansion with some factory ammo . depending on projectile choice , bore size does not always result in quick kills .
i would recommend to you based on cost and a proven track record , 30-06. 150-165 sst for deer , 180's for elk . 30-06 will give you more reach if needed as well .

JMHO

[No1_49er]

I'm sure that I won't be the only person to say "stick with your choice of 45/70, Marlin, L/a." They are fine rifles with an appropriate cartridge to go with it.
You also mention the probability of reloading. A decision that will set you up with loads for any/every eventuality. You might even consider black-powder .
I'm sure that someone like 'gamerancher' will attest to the ability of the cartridge at "interesting" distances .

[Blr243]

I have hunted pigs with 308 and 4570. I admit there’s a lot of character and charm associated with carrying a marlin 4570 in the field but it’s not as powerful at first glance as is often perceived.just by looking at the cartridge If you were to compare a 4570 to a 3006 , only the loads for ruger number ones (4570 ) are delivering more energy than the 3006. So if u but a marlin you are only matching 3006 performance. The latter will be more accurate and shoot flatter. … I can understand why u want one. It’s a nice piece in my safe. I have no desire to move it on. It’s almost un Australian for a pig hunter or deer stalker not to own a lever action 4570

[bigpete]

Ah,the 45-70.....too big for 90% of Australian game,too small to be a reliable stopping rifle. Still fun but I was always so disappointed in mine. Much prefer my 35 whelen

[bigrich]

Ah,the 45-70.....too big for 90% of Australian game,too small to be a reliable stopping rifle. Still fun but I was always so disappointed in mine. Much prefer my 35 whelen

yup

[Peterwho]

And depending on OP size/weight and actual gun chosen, they are not all that much fun to shoot with a solid steel or brass butt plate as it nips into the shoulder. As BLR243 says, many of us had the lever action dream but the reality fades imo each time you shoot.

[stihl88]

Very fun to shoot with Sub's but probably not something I'd choose for shooting beyond 200m.

[in2anity]

Besides the rainbow trajectory, I honestly consider the 45-70 to be a long range cartridge. I can recomend viewing this yt channel:

https://www.youtube.com/@SagebrushLongshots

(to demonstrate just what the 45-70 is capable of, among others.)

The difficult part, as always, is in estimating distance to target, as to account for the trajectory. But 200m really aint that far.

[stihl88]

Just looking at the ballistics chart for 45-70 Gov in subsonic and we see a bullet drop of about 1m at the 200m range... at 300m the drop is approx 3.5m!!!

[Blr243]

Wouldn’t sub speed pills from anything be just as bad ?

[bigpete]

Wouldn’t sub speed pills from anything be just as bad ?

Pretty much,more or less

[Blr243]

Agreed , bullet diameter and design factors of course. Subs or factory loads safe in trapdoors , with flat shapes always goin to be rainbows. But Hornady pointy pills ( I think they call them flex tips ) driven hard in a marlin action are goin to be flatter .. I have some loaded up but not used them yet. I need to get out more. Thank god for Xmas , no customers no excuses , just pack the Ute and head for the hills

[Bello]

Hi Mate

I use my 45-70 for Sh1ts and giggles. I have loaded it a little hot and it KICKS you around a bit.
I have taken it on hunts. I wouldn't use it over 100 meters. Having said that, it is more than capable out past that.
Just for me I find different calibres shoot flatter, less report. My 45-70 has a less than flat trajectory.
For scrub work or sitting off a dam, type work, then yes, if you don't mind the recoil.

I try and match the rifle / calibre to the task at hand.
I have hit deer with many calibres, and you get a lot of meat damage with larger calibres. I think the 45-70 might do tooo much damage to the meat.

Also, if loading the 45-70 with the Hornady FTX projectiles, (I use the 325gr FTX in mine) you will HAVE to trim the case down a little.

My suggestion to you is, borrow a friends/mates/someone you know and have a few shots with it. See if you like it. You may find it a little too much to handle.

My 2c

[bigpete]

My 45-70 did bugger all damage to meat with lead loads. Also didn't kill that well

[stihl88]

Wouldn’t sub speed pills from anything be just as bad ?

Yep pretty much, it just depends on how much energy you want to smack the target with.

[stihl88]

Agreed , bullet diameter and design factors of course. Subs or factory loads safe in trapdoors , with flat shapes always goin to be rainbows. But Hornady pointy pills ( I think they call them flex tips ) driven hard in a marlin action are goin to be flatter .. I have some loaded up but not used them yet. I need to get out more. Thank god for Xmas , no customers no excuses , just pack the Ute and head for the hills

Pointy pills at slow speeds = poor expansion

[Blr243]

I agree. The 325 grain flex tips can be driven to 2250 fps in a marlin or other strongish action That should push the tip back and make ‘em work. I should take my marlin away at Xmas and try this and report back

[straightshooter]

Ramin474
Don't be addlepated by the various negative comments regarding your proposed acquisition. I don't have personal experience with a 45/70 but have extensive years of experience with a 444 Marlin which is not too dissimilar and would like to submit these comments.
Large calibers on large game shouldn't rely on fancy expansion because there is insufficient sectional density in those projectiles to support adequate penetration. Instead they rely on the amount of smash generated by hitting bone or vital organs or preferably both.
You are very optimistic if you are thinking in terms of 200 meter shots in the field out of a 45/70 due to the compromises imposed by it's unfavourable rainbow trajectory.
Think in terms of a zero to the point of aim at 100 meters giving you a point blank range about 125 meters if used on the larger game you have mentioned.
Select conventional flat nosed projectiles with not too much lead showing.
With Marlin lever actions in general I have found their pistol grip stocks far more comfortable to use off hand compared to their straight stocks.

[bigrich]

Large calibers on large game shouldn't rely on fancy expansion because there is insufficient sectional density in those projectiles to support adequate penetration. Instead they rely on the amount of smash generated by hitting bone or vital organs or preferably both.
.

No expansion, very little energy transfer. It’s why I found 9.3x62 not very good on average size pigs, except with the rapidly expanding 270gn Speer. If I remember correctly bigpete found 45-70 to be not a good killer cause of lack of expansion.
By the way , to the best of my knowledge, 444 are known for rapid expansion due to 44mag grade projectiles being used in that caliber .
I’ve seen the 45-70 flatten a buff at 70 meters with handloaded 350gn hornady projectiles. Cause a buff has enough mass and resistance to initiate good projectile expansion.
Make of this what you will, just my personal experiences and humble opinions

[Blr243]

Up cape York a couple of yrs back my 308 with 130 performance was more effective than the 405 in the 4570

[bigrich]

Up cape York a couple of yrs back my 308 with 130 performance was more effective than the 405 in the 4570

i've been round and round loading and trying all sorts of calibers on general medium game , pigs ,goats , A deer, ect. as well as grass hoppers on oppotunity 6.5x55, 358win 9.3x62 , 30-06, 7-08, 45-70. the most effective "all round" and cost efficient load for my uses , big or small, the humble, boring 308 with a 150sst in front of 2208. not overly suited to tail on shots on large pigs , but they don't run off either just need a finisher

the other round that i've seen work really well on common medium game is a 170sst in 8x57 mauser . that was impressive . the carnage on pigs of all different sizes had to be seen , was about on par with 225 sirerra's out of my 358win
7-08 with 150 noslers was also a good one , but trying to get velocity with a 2.8" COL was not to be accuracy was impressive

if the OP wants a 45-70 then go for it , but as you pointed out BLR, the FTX would probably lift performance on lighter game than buff . that's probably why hornady developed them. inside of 150 meters on larger critters the 45-70 can flatten them , but the large bore size alone will not garuntee good killing on "average" game .
these have been my observations and experiences

[SCJ429]

Up cape York a couple of yrs back my 308 with 130 performance was more effective than the 405 in the 4570

No doubt a 308 can knock things over but it does not deliver energy like a big bore, far from it. I have a 45/70 Ruger #1 and it shoots 400 grain projectiles at over 2100 fps which is 80% of the speed and energy of what my 460 Wea Mag can deliver which is 2600 fps. Is the 308 able to deliver 80% of the energy of a 460?

I have shot things with my 460 at 500 metres which is about the range that you need to lead things by one metre. I have also shot groups with my 45/70 at 100 metres just under an inch with a 4x scope. Nothing wrong with the ballistics and accuracy of a big bore.

Lever rifles make things a bit harder, both with speed and accuracy.

[bigrich]

Up cape York a couple of yrs back my 308 with 130 performance was more effective than the 405 in the 4570

No doubt a 308 can knock things over but it does not deliver energy like a big bore, far from it. I have a 45/70 Ruger #1 and it shoots 400 grain projectiles at over 2100 fps which is 80% of the speed and energy of what my 460 Wea Mag can deliver which is 2600 fps. Is the 308 able to deliver 80% of the energy of a 460?

I have shot things with my 460 at 500 metres which is about the range that you need to lead things by one metre. I have also shot groups with my 45/70 at 100 metres just under an inch with a 4x scope. Nothing wrong with the ballistics and accuracy of a big bore.

Lever rifles make things a bit harder, both with speed and accuracy.

Nothing wrong with big bore accuracy, and the energy is impressive. But muzzle energy being transferred to game through energy transfer through bullet expansion is a consideration.As I said in an earlier post I’ve seen buff flattened on the spot with 45-70. I’ve also seen projectiles pin hole through pigs and they just run off like they haven’t even been hit.As range increases the 308 ballistics take over. My own marlin and cva scout 45-70's I had were accurate, but the rainbow trajectory and poor performance on pigs is what motivated me to move them on. One could argue the model 94 in 30-30 is the greatest scrub gun ever for general use. But like the 45-70 they have their limitations. I think that’s what myself and others are trying to say. For more range and flexibility on a broad range of game I find the 308 ,and if I hunted sambar the 30-06, are better suited. If a large bore lever is what floats someone’s boat that’s great. But if it’s used for hunting I just feel that its abilities and limitations need to be put in perspective .
JMHO

[bigpete]

35 whelen ftw

[bigrich]

35 whelen ftw

if i could get a plentiful supply of 225gn game kings i'd probably own one too . my 358 was very flexiable , the whelen would be even better

[bigpete]

20231203_144202.jpg (558.88 KiB) Viewed 4539 times

I've got plenty of them,just don't like the price.
Currently running them ½gn over ADI max and getting fantastic groups with iron sights

[bigrich]

funny sort of woodpecker is attacking that tree pete .....

[SCJ429]

I hear what you are saying Big Rich but you are selling the 45/70 short, I assume you are shooting the case at black powder speeds and comparing it with full power loads with a 308. Big bores do a outstanding job when shot at reasonable speeds and using bullets designed to suit your application.

I would say the sweet spot for hard hitting power and good ballistics are with the 416 Rigby or Weatherby. The capability for this bullet to penetrate like no other is amazing without being as brutal as a 450 Rigby or 460 Weatherby or even the 500 Asquare or 505 Gibbs.

[bigrich]

I hear what you are saying Big Rich but you are selling the 45/70 short, I assume you are shooting the case at black powder speeds and comparing it with full power loads with a 308. Big bores do a outstanding job when shot at reasonable speeds and using bullets designed to suit your application

no mate, i used factory federal 300 gn hollow points and a few warm handloads . some of which had a real boot with 2207 . i find that the boring old 308 does a more consistant job with 150/165gn projectiles ,and is more flexiable in the field for the "average" game i hunt .and has more range if needed . besides that the 308 is cheap to load for .

the key words in your quote is "using bullets for your application" never a truer statement . the 45-70 for me had too many pass throughs on game i encountered . a solid shoulder shot on a large pig would garuntee good expansion , but more often than not running game is harder for a good hit . i never tried the hornady ftx. i suspect this was hornady's attempt at a better deer projectile for the 45-70 . if folks want to use a 45-70 , that's fine . but i believe it's better suited for heavier game . sambar ,buff , wild horses, ect, at not too great a range as those heavy projectiles loose energy rapidly as range increases .
the 44mag is often regarded as a good hard hitting pig gun . i suspect this is due to rapidly expanding big bore pistol bullets at rifle speeds . thought about getting one , but i've been in the position of needing reach on occasion