New Russian Calibre and Rifle

[Lazarus]

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/russia-develo ... cartridge/

[bigrich]

yeah well, at face value it sounds like the ruskies have a 243win variant with a heavy for caliber bullet . wonder if those 104gn armour piercing projectiles would fly out of a tikka 243 with a 8 twist . might be handy if pigs and foxes start wearing body armour

[Lazarus]

yeah well, at face value it sounds like the ruskies have a 243win variant with a heavy for caliber bullet . wonder if those 104gn armour piercing projectiles would fly out of a tikka 243 with a 8 twist . might be handy if pigs and foxes start wearing body armour

Seems a weird choice, 6.02mm?
I'm scratching my head over that.02

[Oldbloke]

yeah well, at face value it sounds like the ruskies have a 243win variant with a heavy for caliber bullet . wonder if those 104gn armour piercing projectiles would fly out of a tikka 243 with a 8 twist . might be handy if pigs and foxes start wearing body armour

Seems a weird choice, 6.02mm?
I'm scratching my head over that.02

Me too.

Screenshot_20240124-103219_Unit Converter.jpg (309.96 KiB) Viewed 1676 times

[bigrich]

yeah well, at face value it sounds like the ruskies have a 243win variant with a heavy for caliber bullet . wonder if those 104gn armour piercing projectiles would fly out of a tikka 243 with a 8 twist . might be handy if pigs and foxes start wearing body armour

Seems a weird choice, 6.02mm?
I'm scratching my head over that.02

Me too.

Screenshot_20240124-103219_Unit Converter.jpg

yeah well , .277 (270) is a bit odd too sounds like the ruskies and yanks are both looking to defeat body armour with new rounds .

i'm digressing a bit , but i read recently about the US navy anti missle lasers, and Britan has a new APC/armoured truck (mastiff) mounted laser system that shoots down drones . how long before we see armoured laser rifle wielding "storm troopers" like the star wars movies

[straightshooter]

I wonder what the real dimensional differences (including tolerances) are compared to the standard Chinese 5.8x42 cartridge.

[Lazarus]

yeah well, at face value it sounds like the ruskies have a 243win variant with a heavy for caliber bullet . wonder if those 104gn armour piercing projectiles would fly out of a tikka 243 with a 8 twist . might be handy if pigs and foxes start wearing body armour

Seems a weird choice, 6.02mm?
I'm scratching my head over that.02

Me too.

Screenshot_20240124-103219_Unit Converter.jpg

yeah well , .277 (270) is a bit odd too sounds like the ruskies and yanks are both looking to defeat body armour with new rounds .

i'm digressing a bit , but i read recently about the US navy anti missle lasers, and Britan has a new APC/armoured truck (mastiff) mounted laser system that shoots down drones . how long before we see armoured laser rifle wielding "storm troopers" like the star wars movies

Need some serious energy density in your batteries for that.
If they do develop laser rifles, then they'll have to translate from camo to disco.
Mirrored uniforms, light shows, pyrotechnics, only thing missing would be Rammstein

[Blr243]

I have always , make that , for a long time thought that a 243 would be a sensible choice for a military calibre ( I’m mainly thinking Aussie ) because I think 308 was too big and 223 was too small. So the 243 sort of sits in the middle . But I don’t really know a lot about calibres and actions so I’m open to suggestions as to why I could be wrong. What do u blokes think ? Assuming laz not get his knickers in a knot for derailing his topic because he’s always been a stable sensible friendly chap

[Lazarus]

I have always , make that , for a long time thought that a 243 would be a sensible choice for a military calibre ( I’m mainly thinking Aussie ) because I think 308 was too big and 223 was too small. So the 243 sort of sits in the middle . But I don’t really know a lot about calibres and actions so I’m open to suggestions as to why I could be wrong. What do u blokes think ? Assuming laz not get his knickers in a knot for derailing his topic because he’s always been a stable sensible friendly chap

I'm so friendly now Blr, I don't even wear knickers anymore

[Lazarus]

It is a good question.

Any theories anyone?

[bladeracer]

I have always , make that , for a long time thought that a 243 would be a sensible choice for a military calibre ( I’m mainly thinking Aussie ) because I think 308 was too big and 223 was too small. So the 243 sort of sits in the middle . But I don’t really know a lot about calibres and actions so I’m open to suggestions as to why I could be wrong. What do u blokes think ? Assuming laz not get his knickers in a knot for derailing his topic because he’s always been a stable sensible friendly chap

I think if you're going to build a short-action rifle and lug short-action (2.800" overall length) ammo around anyway, there's very little down side to chambering it something more potent, like .308 or 7mm-08. Even the lightest 110gn bullets in .308 are still about 400fps faster than the heaviest 115gn bullets you can fling from the .243. I think the 300BLK is the better compromise as it still lets you carry the "toy gun" size and weight of the AR15/M16 platform while pushing 110gn bullets at around 2200fps. The M16 or M4 are ridiculously light and compact compared to a G3 or L1A1, and allow you to carry more than twice the amount of ammo for the same weight, that also takes up less space in your kit. I am surprised, especially now that they're playing with three-inch-twist barrels, why they haven't tested something like 95gn bullets in 5.56x45mm to extend its range. And why they never tested the 6.5mm Creedmoor in something like the 240Bravo or short-action rifle platforms for military use.

[Lazarus]

Since we're off the rails, let's run with it.

What's the outright winner for the most bizarre round, or firearm that has actually been used?

[straightshooter]

What it means to be a meatbot in modern warfare.
Warning graphic footage.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/BUMqcFR4gvrS/

[bigpete]

Since we're off the rails, let's run with it.

What's the outright winner for the most bizarre round, or firearm that has actually been used?

22 eargensplittenloudenboomen

[Blr243]

4570 is a different mil cartridge

[Lazarus]

I give you
The .14 Eichelberger Dart

The .14 Eichelberger Dart is one of the many sub-.17 caliber wildcat cartridges developed by Bill Eichelberger. You read that right, sub .17 caliber. His wildcats range from .10 to .14 caliber and are unique, to say the least. Developed in 1983, the Dart is a .25 ACP necked down to accept the tiny 10-grain bullet. In a 2004 interview with Saubier.com, Eichelberger had this to say about experimenting with such small calibers. “Personally I derive a lot of satisfaction from punching small holes very close together in paper.” 

Ballistically speaking, this cartridge is actually quite impressive in terms of velocity. Topping out just shy of 3,000 fps, the .14 Eichelberger Dart is loaded with bullets weighing between 10  and 13 grains. What’s really impressive about the cartridge is the extremely light powder charge used in each round. According to Cartridge’s of the World, 16th Edition, the Dart needs only 3.5 grains of powder to propel a 10-grain bullet at 2,967 fps; that’s 2,000 loaded rounds out of a pound of powder (7,000 grains in a pound). 


The above is from Freerange American

[on_one_wheel]

I have always , make that , for a long time thought that a 243 would be a sensible choice for a military calibre ( I’m mainly thinking Aussie ) because I think 308 was too big and 223 was too small. So the 243 sort of sits in the middle . But I don’t really know a lot about calibres and actions so I’m open to suggestions as to why I could be wrong. What do u blokes think ? Assuming laz not get his knickers in a knot for derailing his topic because he’s always been a stable sensible friendly chap

My understanding is that we switched from .308 to .223 to increase the amount of ammunition that could be physically carried.

Perhaps the anticipated battlefield conditions are leaning more towards a need for a more energetic round with increased range ... open fields rather than jungle?

It's also possible that military training has focused on delivering a few well placed shots rather than the spray and pray techniques adopted during Vietnam leading to larger rounds becoming a practical choice again?

[JohnV]

Does anyone see the big split in the projectile jacket in the first photo ? The armor piercing ammo will have average to poor accuracy.
They are flogging a dead horse the anti material type rifle is dead . It's all ATGM's and other shoulder mounted missiles plus drones.
If you have ever had a 120 kilo Chicom soldier high on meth coming at you then you want all the knock down power you can get . They can absorb several 5.56 Nato and keep coming but one 7.62 Nato drops them . I absolutely refused to carry an M16 .

[straightshooter]

On_one_wheel
In recent times part of the military strategy underlying smaller caliber rifles has been the ability to sustain suppressive fire for longer periods so that a heavier weapon can be brought into play against an enemy formation.
Another aspect is the tactical and strategic value of incapacitating injuries to enemy combatants in diverting logistical resources to their evacuation and treatment or in the absence of timely evacuation then the effect on morale of the enemy.

[Lazarus]

Does anyone see the big split in the projectile jacket in the first photo ? The armor piercing ammo will have average to poor accuracy.
They are flogging a dead horse the anti material type rifle is dead . It's all ATGM's and other shoulder mounted missiles plus drones.
If you have ever had a 120 kilo Chicom soldier high on meth coming at you then you want all the knock down power you can get . They can absorb several 5.56 Nato and keep coming but one 7.62 Nato drops them . I absolutely refused to carry an M16 .

Good catch John.
I thought it was just a scratch, but when zoomed, it does look like a crack.
Got me wondering now.

GBX0X6oWkAAzSX4-e1702638766467.jpg (11.11 KiB) Viewed 1327 times

[Blr243]

Regarding 223 and 7.62 and what John v said. , my father told me that in Vietnam the enemy shot with 223 sometimes continued to shoot back for a while He said if they were shot with a 762 , you could be confident they were dead

[JohnV]

Regarding 223 and 7.62 and what John v said. , my father told me that in Vietnam the enemy shot with 223 sometimes continued to shoot back for a while He said if they were shot with a 762 , you could be confident they were dead

Same blood ,same mud .

[JohnV]

Does anyone see the big split in the projectile jacket in the first photo ? The armor piercing ammo will have average to poor accuracy.
They are flogging a dead horse the anti material type rifle is dead . It's all ATGM's and other shoulder mounted missiles plus drones.
If you have ever had a 120 kilo Chicom soldier high on meth coming at you then you want all the knock down power you can get . They can absorb several 5.56 Nato and keep coming but one 7.62 Nato drops them . I absolutely refused to carry an M16 .

Good catch John.
I thought it was just a scratch, but when zoomed, it does look like a crack.
Got me wondering now.

GBX0X6oWkAAzSX4-e1702638766467.jpg

There is a few reasons why a jacket will split , major reason is too hard for the final operations. However on firing that popped jacket could fail in the air before it reaches the target . The big problem with Russian weapons is there is a big difference in what gets designed and what actually turns up on the battle field , quality wise . There is quite a few Military manufacturers now all trying to capture a Government contract with new innovative cartridges and weapons but many are just too radical and never get a wide Military acceptance . It's easy to get sucked in by a slick advertising and sales strategy and you end up with a lemon like the Aug Steyr .
6.02 mm is .238 , so it's a radical caliber trying to create a niche in the market that only they can fill . Won't work .

[bladeracer]

6.02 mm is .238 , so it's a radical caliber trying to create a niche in the market that only they can fill . Won't work .

I think they are simply quoting bore diameter rather than groove diameter as is the European way. The 6.02mm is probably just a rounding of 6mm or .236" bore diameter, for a .243" groove diameter, it may even simply be that the zero shouldn't be there and they mean 6.2mm or .243". I really doubt they're going to make any effort to create a whole new bullet that is only .007" smaller than one that has been in use for more than 130 years already. I think it's basically a 5.45x39mm round necked up slightly to use a heavier 103gn 6mm bullet, nothing radical I can see.

Actually, I found a better page that makes this same claim.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2024/01/10/new-russian-6-02x41-cartridge-and-prototype-rifles-ak-22-mini-svch/

[JohnV]

You could be right . If the bullet diameter is .243 then it's a lot better option .

[Oldbloke]

Ok, you could well be correct. But since Russia is very unlikely to obtain tooling from US or any other western country in the near future. Why would they bother copying one of their common bullet diameters?

[bladeracer]

Ok, you could well be correct. But since Russia is very unlikely to obtain tooling from US or any other western country in the near future. Why would they bother copying one of their common bullet diameters?

Why would they not? Europe has been using 6mm bullets for almost as long as the US has, I'm sure they already have tooling to produce them.

[Oldbloke]

Ok, you could well be correct. But since Russia is very unlikely to obtain tooling from US or any other western country in the near future. Why would they bother copying one of their common bullet diameters?

Why would they not? Europe has been using 6mm bullets for almost as long as the US has, I'm sure they already have tooling to produce them.

Yeh, I guess they do.

[Border_Bloke]

The new Russian 6.02×41mm round uses a 6.02 mm (0.237") bullet
The new Chinese 5.8×42mm round uses a 6.00 mm (0.236") bullet.

I wonder if Russia just wanted to copy the chinese yet still be different? That 0.02mm, it's less than one thousandth of an inch (about 7 ten thousandths').

Both of these 6mm's & the US's 6.8x51mm are all designed to defeat body armour of "peers".

[bladeracer]

The new Russian 6.02×41mm round uses a 6.02 mm (0.237") bullet
The new Chinese 5.8×42mm round uses a 6.00 mm (0.236") bullet.

I wonder if Russia just wanted to copy the chinese yet still be different? That 0.02mm, it's less than one thousandth of an inch (about 7 ten thousandths').

Both of these 6mm's & the US's 6.8x51mm are all designed to defeat body armour of "peers".

I'm sure they're talking bore diameter (or calibre), not bullet diameter.
Just as 7.62x54R, 7.62x39mm and 5.45x39mm use the bore diameter as their designation, they all use bullets with larger diameters. The 7.62's (.300") use .310" bullets, the 5.45mm (.215") uses .221" bullets. I'm quite sure that a .237" Russian cartridge will use .243" bullets.

It'll be a standard .243" bore using standard 6.2mm bullets.