Leverevolution .357 mag

[Obie73]

G'day. Does anyone here have any paper target experience with the Hornady Leverevolution ammo in .357 magnum (in a lever action rifle)?

Yes ... it's expensive ... but time is money they say and I sometimes tire of trying to hand make accurate ammo. My main interest is smallest possible groups in specifically 'traditional' tube mag 'cowboy' style LA rifles with eg. 20 -- 24" barrel. Okay, it's possibly an unusual niche interest but there you go .. it is what it is. I shoot in SSAA lever action competitions and am sometimes up against shooters with very fancy gear. Wondering if my open sight technique might improve with the Leverevolution ammo. What do you think? I'd be looking at maybe 50 rds a month so not too much outlay.

[in2anity]

You sure the they allow jacketed projies for CLAS and PCLAS?

[in2anity]

I just checked the SSAA rulbook 4.1.3 indeed you are allowed jacketed for rifle. I got confused with BPCR.

[Obie73]

Yes, at the range I shoot at you are allowed semi jacketed but not full metal jacket. Most people there seem to shoot jacketed projectiles in their 357 magnum Lever actions that I've seen so far. Some use powder coated lead.

Btw, if anyone has experience with any calibre of Leverevolution ammo (also including hand loads with FTX projectiles) in a rifle I'd be very keen to hear about your experience.

[No1Mk3]

FTX is just hunting ammo, not target grade. it is somewhat faster and flatter shooting than FN/SP or LFN and so some find it easier to shoot well at ranges encountered in comp. i only used it twice (with a borrowed Henry as I no longer own a 357 rifle) and found no advantage over hand loaded ammo.

[Obie73]

Thanks No1Mk3, I appreciate your input. There's much I don't know. For a .357 rifle what would be a more appropriate target grade projectile?

[deye243]

Thanks No1Mk3, I appreciate your input. There's much I don't know. For a .357 rifle what would be a more appropriate target grade projectile?

What's the diameter of the smallest and the longest range you are shooting.

[in2anity]

Here’s some 30/30 FTX at 100m - https://youtu.be/EGdDyugsOM4?si=S9CSkWEv6lZLqQAf

I went on to hit the 500m 50cm gong with consistency, and a full value consistent wind.

But as already mentioned, the 50m group is no better compared with a lead bullet load over AR2207, if anything it’s worse because of the heat it generates.

[Obie73]

Thanks No1Mk3, I appreciate your input. There's much I don't know. For a .357 rifle what would be a more appropriate target grade projectile?

What's the diameter of the smallest and the longest range you are shooting.

We shoot at 100m, 50m, and 25m ranges. The 25m is usually rapid fire I think. There are AFP (any field position eg. rested against post) and off hand targets. Smallest groups closest to bullseye is the goal in each category.

Thanks In2anity, definitely interested in the 30-30 too. Will check out the video for sure.

[Obie73]

Actually, I'm thinking I might just compete with a 30-30. Probably get smaller groups for sure.

[Billo]

Yes, at the range I shoot at you are allowed semi jacketed but not full metal jacket. Most people there seem to shoot jacketed projectiles in their 357 magnum Lever actions that I've seen so far. Some use powder coated lead.

Btw, if anyone has experience with any calibre of Leverevolution ammo (also including hand loads with FTX projectiles) in a rifle I'd be very keen to hear about your experience.

I run Leverevolution in my 6mm ARC and also my 308 and group size is spectacular with small ES one of the benefits of this very fine powder. Never tried it in my 357 as I had Pistol powders on hand but I did get extremely tiny groups from the 140gr FTX projectiles.

[Obie73]

Sounds great Billo!! So, did you hand load your own loads with the 140gr FTX projectiles in .357 mag and you got improved accuracy? If so, this is all I need to know. Ah, I think I get what you're saying. You used Leverevolution powder.

[Over The Hill]

You dont need ammo any more accurate than you can shoot the rifle. Buy cheaper ammo in larger quantities and practice more. Using premium ammo will not make you a better shot IMHO

[in2anity]

I think for lever action offhand, 2-3moa mechanical capability is plenty good enough. And you should get that from lead bullets. Start with that and practice heaps. Exactly what over the hill said

[Obie73]

You dont need ammo any more accurate than you can shoot the rifle. Buy cheaper ammo in larger quantities and practice more. Using premium ammo will not make you a better shot IMHO

Yes, extra practice is a great idea. I am a good shot already, and I also know that some loads definitely have wider groups. My view is that you need both: lots of practice and great performing gear etc. Because if you don't have the latter all the long practice you do is a less efficient use of practice time. So I will keep looking for tighter shooting ammo. I've seen how the .357 magnum can shoot 1.5 -- 2" groups at 100m, on a rest and using a scope, out of a 20" barrel lever action rifle. That's if you have the most accurate shooting loads for that particular rifle. Other groups might be 3.5 -- 4" with different loads. May as well seek out the most accurate loads with the most accurate projectiles. That may, or may not, include the FTX projectiles. If I find out how they shoot in my rifle I will post back here. I shoot with open sights by choice but I still find that more accurate ammo gives noticeably better results.

[Billo]

Sounds great Billo!! So, did you hand load your own loads with the 140gr FTX projectiles in .357 mag and you got improved accuracy? If so, this is all I need to know. Ah, I think I get what you're saying. You used Leverevolution powder.

I used Alliant 300MP with FTX 140gr FTX, this was the group it shot at 50m

[Obie73]

Beautiful group, Billo, thanks for this excellent information. Were you using a lever action by any chance?

[Billo]

Ruger 77 357, two piece bolt light weight barrel

[in2anity]

Yes, extra practice is a great idea. I am a good shot already, and I also know that some loads definitely have wider groups. My view is that you need both: lots of practice and great performing gear etc. Because if you don't have the latter all the long practice you do is a less efficient use of practice time. So I will keep looking for tighter shooting ammo. I've seen how the .357 magnum can shoot 1.5 -- 2" groups at 100m, on a rest and using a scope, out of a 20" barrel lever action rifle. That's if you have the most accurate shooting loads for that particular rifle. Other groups might be 3.5 -- 4" with different loads. May as well seek out the most accurate loads with the most accurate projectiles. That may, or may not, include the FTX projectiles. If I find out how they shoot in my rifle I will post back here. I shoot with open sights by choice but I still find that more accurate ammo gives noticeably better results.

Ah ok tis fair. Oh well, do some experiments - if your FTX loads are indeed measurably better then cheaper alternatives, then it's a no brainer that's what you'd take to a comp. After all, accuracy is king, speed is prince. Worthwhile experiment for sure. I rate the 30/30 for CLAS distances - over a larger wind sample. It is significantly easier to use than straightwall out to modest distance.

[in2anity]

Ruger 77 357, two piece bolt light weight barrel

still a bolt gun. and there's nothing necessarily wrong with a two piece bolt design, so long as it headspaces consistently - look at the omark for example. Light barrel? well yeah shoot ten and see how the group fairs... Don't get me wrong - that's a fine group for 357. But you'd be doing pretty well to find a lever that can consistently do that.

[Billo]

Ruger 77 357, two piece bolt light weight barrel

still a bolt gun. and there's nothing necessarily wrong with a two piece bolt design, so long as it headspaces consistently - look at the omark for example. Light barrel? well yeah shoot ten and see how the group fairs... Don't get me wrong - that's a fine group for 357. But you'd be doing pretty well to find a lever that can consistently do that.

I had a 1960 Marlin 3030 with a micro groove barrel and it shot stupid small groups like this, sadly I sold it to my brother who later on swapped it for something s**t.

Obviously not the norm In2anity but some can shoot like stink

[in2anity]

Ruger 77 357, two piece bolt light weight barrel

still a bolt gun. and there's nothing necessarily wrong with a two piece bolt design, so long as it headspaces consistently - look at the omark for example. Light barrel? well yeah shoot ten and see how the group fairs... Don't get me wrong - that's a fine group for 357. But you'd be doing pretty well to find a lever that can consistently do that.

I had a 1960 Marlin 3030 with a micro groove barrel and it shot stupid small groups like this, sadly I sold it to my brother who later on swapped it for something s**t.

Obviously not the norm In2anity but some can shoot like stink

I have some like that too, but they open up after 4 or 5. That's why lead is good - barrel stays cooler for longer for a string.

[Obie73]

Yes, extra practice is a great idea. I am a good shot already, and I also know that some loads definitely have wider groups. My view is that you need both: lots of practice and great performing gear etc. Because if you don't have the latter all the long practice you do is a less efficient use of practice time. So I will keep looking for tighter shooting ammo. I've seen how the .357 magnum can shoot 1.5 -- 2" groups at 100m, on a rest and using a scope, out of a 20" barrel lever action rifle. That's if you have the most accurate shooting loads for that particular rifle. Other groups might be 3.5 -- 4" with different loads. May as well seek out the most accurate loads with the most accurate projectiles. That may, or may not, include the FTX projectiles. If I find out how they shoot in my rifle I will post back here. I shoot with open sights by choice but I still find that more accurate ammo gives noticeably better results.

Ah ok tis fair. Oh well, do some experiments - if your FTX loads are indeed measurably better then cheaper alternatives, then it's a no brainer that's what you'd take to a comp. After all, accuracy is king, speed is prince. Worthwhile experiment for sure. I rate the 30/30 for CLAS distances - over a larger wind sample. It is significantly easier to use than straightwall out to modest distance.

Just read a post on a US forum where the guy says he's done a fair bit of load development with the FTX 140 gr out of a 20" barrel Win lever action model 92, with H110. He says he's not all that impressed with his results in that rifle. He says the XTP 158gr is more accurate for him. So, I'm now thinking I might now try 158gr XTP instead. Regarding the 30-30, yes, it's probably logically the better rifle to use for these comps but ... I dunno .... something about the .357 out of a LA rifle just interests me more. I like the challenge of getting as much out of that round as I possibly can. It's a project.

[wrenchman]

I have shot the ammo and I didnt find it bad but I didn't feel it was worth the price I also found the brass gave me lots of problems when reloadig

[Obie73]

I have shot the ammo and I didnt find it bad but I didn't feel it was worth the price I also found the brass gave me lots of problems when reloadig

Yes shorter brass, so not good to mix up your brass with normal length. The FTX is quite a bit more expensive than XTP for sure.

[deye243]

Yes, extra practice is a great idea. I am a good shot already, and I also know that some loads definitely have wider groups. My view is that you need both: lots of practice and great performing gear etc. Because if you don't have the latter all the long practice you do is a less efficient use of practice time. So I will keep looking for tighter shooting ammo. I've seen how the .357 magnum can shoot 1.5 -- 2" groups at 100m, on a rest and using a scope, out of a 20" barrel lever action rifle. That's if you have the most accurate shooting loads for that particular rifle. Other groups might be 3.5 -- 4" with different loads. May as well seek out the most accurate loads with the most accurate projectiles. That may, or may not, include the FTX projectiles. If I find out how they shoot in my rifle I will post back here. I shoot with open sights by choice but I still find that more accurate ammo gives noticeably better results.

Ah ok tis fair. Oh well, do some experiments - if your FTX loads are indeed measurably better then cheaper alternatives, then it's a no brainer that's what you'd take to a comp. After all, accuracy is king, speed is prince. Worthwhile experiment for sure. I rate the 30/30 for CLAS distances - over a larger wind sample. It is significantly easier to use than straightwall out to modest distance.

Just read a post on a US forum where the guy says he's done a fair bit of load development with the FTX 140 gr out of a 20" barrel Win lever action model 92, with H110. He says he's not all that impressed with his results in that rifle. He says the XTP 158gr is more accurate for him. So, I'm now thinking I might now try 158gr XTP instead. Regarding the 30-30, yes, it's probably logically the better rifle to use for these comps but ... I dunno .... something about the .357 out of a LA rifle just interests me more. I like the challenge of getting as much out of that round as I possibly can. It's a project.

It will come down to what the rifle likes .
I new a bloke in my pistol club back in the 90s he had a crappy Rossi 357 lever action and that freak of a thing would shoot 1" groups at 50m with what ever you fed it that was the roughest lever I have ever cycled.

I even offered to buy it and he laughed at me und said no because you don't like Rossi rifles haha he was right but that thing just shot so good for what it was .

[in2anity]

Regarding the 30-30, yes, it's probably logically the better rifle to use for these comps but ... I dunno .... something about the .357 out of a LA rifle just interests me more. I like the challenge of getting as much out of that round as I possibly can. It's a project.

I'm not sure if you are targetting PCLAS or CLAS, and it's an important desitinction to make. If you wanna do CLAS the rams are on the 200m line instead of the 100m line, and they are the Long Range Pistol targets (bigger than the 1/2 size pistol found for PCLAS). A belly shot from the 357 probs won't topple the ram and only "ring it". 44mag is usually considered minimum for CLAS, and I'm not a huge fan of 44mag. 30/30 better.

There's also the issue of spitballing. Lead than "spitballs" onto the target transfers more energy that a more frangible high velocity that shatters and basically deflects the energy away.

Probs best to attend some club shoots and see/experience what other blokes are using, before comitting too heavily on buying.

[Obie73]

Regarding the 30-30, yes, it's probably logically the better rifle to use for these comps but ... I dunno .... something about the .357 out of a LA rifle just interests me more. I like the challenge of getting as much out of that round as I possibly can. It's a project.

I'm not sure if you are targetting PCLAS or CLAS, and it's an important desitinction to make. If you wanna do CLAS the rams are on the 200m line instead of the 100m line, and they are the Long Range Pistol targets (bigger than the 1/2 size pistol found for PCLAS). A belly shot from the 357 probs won't topple the ram and only "ring it". 44mag is usually considered minimum for CLAS, and I'm not a huge fan of 44mag. 30/30 better.

There's also the issue of spitballing. Lead than "spitballs" onto the target transfers more energy that a frangible high velocity that shatters and basically deflects the energy away.

Probs best to attend some club shoots and see/experience what other blokes are using, before comitting too heavily on buying.

I'm not sure what PCLAS and CLAS are. Sounds like it's different to what we do at our range. We just shoot paper targets (which might be animal shaped, with sort of topographic-looking lines within, with different scores if you hit in those areas, or standard bullseye type paper targets, at 100m, 50m, and 25m.

Yes, extra practice is a great idea. I am a good shot already, and I also know that some loads definitely have wider groups. My view is that you need both: lots of practice and great performing gear etc. Because if you don't have the latter all the long practice you do is a less efficient use of practice time. So I will keep looking for tighter shooting ammo. I've seen how the .357 magnum can shoot 1.5 -- 2" groups at 100m, on a rest and using a scope, out of a 20" barrel lever action rifle. That's if you have the most accurate shooting loads for that particular rifle. Other groups might be 3.5 -- 4" with different loads. May as well seek out the most accurate loads with the most accurate projectiles. That may, or may not, include the FTX projectiles. If I find out how they shoot in my rifle I will post back here. I shoot with open sights by choice but I still find that more accurate ammo gives noticeably better results.

Ah ok tis fair. Oh well, do some experiments - if your FTX loads are indeed measurably better then cheaper alternatives, then it's a no brainer that's what you'd take to a comp. After all, accuracy is king, speed is prince. Worthwhile experiment for sure. I rate the 30/30 for CLAS distances - over a larger wind sample. It is significantly easier to use than straightwall out to modest distance.

Just read a post on a US forum where the guy says he's done a fair bit of load development with the FTX 140 gr out of a 20" barrel Win lever action model 92, with H110. He says he's not all that impressed with his results in that rifle. He says the XTP 158gr is more accurate for him. So, I'm now thinking I might now try 158gr XTP instead. Regarding the 30-30, yes, it's probably logically the better rifle to use for these comps but ... I dunno .... something about the .357 out of a LA rifle just interests me more. I like the challenge of getting as much out of that round as I possibly can. It's a project.

It will come down to what the rifle likes .
I new a bloke in my pistol club back in the 90s he had a crappy Rossi 357 lever action and that freak of a thing would shoot 1" groups at 50m with what ever you fed it that was the roughest lever I have ever cycled.

I even offered to buy it and he laughed at me und said no because you don't like Rossi rifles haha he was right but that thing just shot so good for what it was .

I'm not sure what PCLAS and CLAS are. Sounds like it's different to what we do at our range. We just shoot paper targets (which might be animal shaped, with lines within, with different scores if you hit in those areas, or standard bullseye type paper targets, at 100m, 50m, and 25m.

Yes don't like Rossi rifles myself. Had a 92 model that sort of bulged out the brass a bit at the base of the brass (near the primer). Had to take it back for a refund. The chamfer at the opening of the chamber was obviously cut too wide. Sounds like occasionally you can get a great one though. I've got .357 rifles by Miroku Winchester and Uberti, both 1873 models. Love that model. The cartridge stays parallel with the bore when being lifted up from the magazine. Thus, the chamber is less chamfered at its mouth and the base of the brass more supported by the walls of the chamber.

[in2anity]

I'm not sure what PCLAS and CLAS are. Sounds like it's different to what we do at our range. We just shoot paper targets (which might be animal shaped, with lines within, with different scores if you hit in those areas, or standard bullseye type paper targets, at 100m, 50m, and 25m.

Ok sorry - just presumed you're falling under the SSAA net, my bad. FWIW, CLAS "Cowboy Lever Action Silhoutte" PCLAS "Pistol Cowboy Lever Action Silhoutte". The 357 will do just fine then at your distances.

[mickb]

FTX is just hunting ammo, not target grade. it is somewhat faster and flatter shooting than FN/SP or LFN and so some find it easier to shoot well at ranges encountered in comp. i only used it twice (with a borrowed Henry as I no longer own a 357 rifle) and found no advantage over hand loaded ammo.

Is it really flatter shooting though. Looking at the ballistic coefficient figures,both the 140FTX in 357 and the 225ftx in 44 have worse ballistic coefficients than the big hollowpoints in each calibre.

357 cal BC's:
140 FTX .169
158 XTP .199

44 cal BC's
225FTX . 145
240XTP .205
200 XTP .171

If Hornadys own figures are correct, FTX are dropping and losing energy faster down range...