357 vs 44 mag vs 44-40

[bigrich]

hey fellas , thought i'd bring up this topic for a general discussion/debate on a boring good friday morning . which do you prefer and why ? i want to hear all your opinions whether it's accuracy for comps or game effectiveness . i've had a few levers in the pasr , marlins, winchester and rossi . the octaonal 24" rossi in 357 i had was the slickest and most accurate of the lot . but heavy . 357 marlins , not bad . i had a 44 mag marlin that was a piece of crap . very unreliable feeding even after tweaking and you'd feel a tight spot when pushing a patch through where they had stamped the marlin name on the barrel . horrible accuracy, sold it quick .
i was thinking a rossi classic , 20" barrel in 357 would be my pick. and i believe the late production are drilled for a pic rail to fit a red dot . 357 qualifies as classic caliber for comps, as well as close range field use . or is a 44 far superior in the field ?

opinions

[Obie73]

Hooray, another lever topic. I've heard a few times that the Rossi 357s are accurate. I bought a 20" barrel 92 a while back and its chamber was too wide at the mouth, meaning that the brass bulged a bit with standard factory ammo. I took it back and was given another, and it did the same and had another problem added to the first: it sometimes used to eject two rounds at a time. True story. So back it went and I gave up. Got a Miroku Winchester which is more expensive but have been happy with it so far. I like the 357 for target shooting as it doesn't kick as much and it's cheaper to reload for. I find less recoil does help with accuracy, but perhaps you can train yourself no matter how much the thing kicks. Of course, some people have 45-70 Marlins and they'd kick a fair bit. I would buy either a 357 or a 44-40 but that's because I like the lower recoil, plus I like tradition and, to me, the 357 is basically a thinner version of a 45 long Colt, and I wouldn't bother with 45 Colt myself. i think there's maybe a bit of anecdotal evidence around that of all the short lever rounds the 357 is considered to be pretty accurate. The 30-30 is inherently easier to get smaller groups out to a 100m I think, but that's not one you're asking about, or that I'm interested in.

[bigrich]

Hooray, another lever topic. I've heard a few times that the Rossi 357s are accurate. I bought a 20" barrel 92 a while back and its chamber was too wide at the mouth, meaning that the brass bulged a bit with standard factory ammo. I took it back and was given another, and it did the same and had another problem added to the first: it sometimes used to eject two rounds at a time. True story. So back it went and I gave up. Got a Miroku Winchester which is more expensive but have been happy with it so far. I like the 357 for target shooting as it doesn't kick as much and it's cheaper to reload for. I find less recoil does help with accuracy, but perhaps you can train yourself no matter how much the thing kicks. Of course, some people have 45-70 Marlins and they'd kick a fair bit. I would buy either a 357 or a 44-40 but that's because I like the lower recoil, plus I like tradition and, to me, the 357 is basically a thinner version of a 45 long Colt, and I wouldn't bother with 45 Colt myself. i think there's maybe a bit of anecdotal evidence around that of all the short lever rounds the 357 is considered to be pretty accurate. The 30-30 is inherently easier to get smaller groups out to a 100m I think, but that's not one you're asking about, or that I'm interested in.

ahh , hell mate , lets expand this discussion to include the new rossi 30-30 , which is mainly a copy of marlin . anyone got one ?

[bladeracer]

hey fellas , thought i'd bring up this topic for a general discussion/debate on a boring good friday morning . which do you prefer and why ? i want to hear all your opinions whether it's accuracy for comps or game effectiveness . i've had a few levers in the past , marlins, winchester and rossi . the octagonal 24" rossi in 357 i had was the slickest and most accurate of the lot . but heavy . 357 marlins , not bad . i had a 44 mag marlin that was a piece of crap . very unreliable feeding even after tweaking and you'd feel a tight spot when pushing a patch through where they had stamped the marlin name on the barrel . horrible accuracy, sold it quick .
i was thinking a rossi classic , 20" barrel in 357 would be my pick. and i believe the late production are drilled for a pic rail to fit a red dot . 357 qualifies as classic caliber for comps, as well as close range field use . or is a 44 far superior in the field ?

opinions

I have .357 (Rossi) and .44 Mag (Marlin), and a .38 Special (Uberti). I haven't owned a .44-40 though I did buy dies and brass years ago expecting to end up with one at some point. I've only hunted with the lever-action .22's, I prefer the reliability and accuracy of bolt-actions. I bought levers originally to practice lever-action Silhouette, which is all about precision. The past six months though I've been concentrating on Cowboy, which is all about speed, precision wasn't a thing in the late 1800's. In Silhouette you have to hit five fairly small targets from 40m out to 100m, offhand with iron sights, and only one chance on each, no do-overs if you miss one. The 100m target is roughly 150m high by 300mm wide, and you have to knock it over so you do need some punch. In Cowboy you have to put ten bullets on large steel plates (400mm-square) at 3m to 7m as fast as you possibly can - under two seconds is a good start, and barely scraping the edge still counts as a hit. Occasionally we'll put plates at 10m for sniper practice, and for a Pat Garrett match we might have a plate way out at 35m or so, but we bring out the .30-30's and .45-70's to deal with that sucker. I found this guy that does pretty good Cowboy videos - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1IgvxcMxaY

Agreed about the Marlin design, the uncontrolled-feed allows the cartridge to float around, and even fall out of the rifle during cycling. It may be only an issue with the .44 because of the size of the cartridge, I don't know, but I wouldn't be trusting my life to a Marlin, just based on my own experience. One of the Cowboys only uses Marlins and loves them, but I think he's shooting .38's. When the Marlin runs though it is a beauty. I haven't taken it to a Cowboy match yet but I will do just to give it a run. The Marlin is my rifle of choice for dropping cows in the yard. It packs a hell of a punch and the big fat bullet stops pretty quickly. And it's not so loud that we need hearing protection so we can still hear what's happening around us. Of course, being tube fed it's a pain to load and unload so I generally load three in case I screw up a shot, then have to cycle the rifle empty before putting it down. Then load three to do the next one and so on. The 7mm-08 with the box mag is easier for that, and subsonic loads make it pleasant on the ears, but it's scoped so I don't like having it in with the cows. The Marlin was also a long frustrating effort to get it to shoot cast bullets with any degree of accuracy, and I never got it close to jacketed bullet accuracy. The biggest advantage the Marlin offers is the side-eject allows mounting a conventional scope, which can be quick-detach on a pic rail.

The Rossi 1892 is a great action. I haven't owned an original Winchester 1892 but I have used a couple. I have had quite a lot of stoppages with the Rossi but most were due to the ammo. A mate has a Chiappa 92 and also has significant feeding issues. It always seems to relate to the pair of guide rails that hang onto the case rim during feeding. These allow the front of the cartridge to flick up occasionally and then the rim is caught under the rails. A knife or screwdriver and a pair of needle-nose pliers are always good to have on hand. But when it runs it is very fast and smooth. The biggest downside for me is the work involved in stripping the guts out for cleaning, which should never be attempted in the field as there are lots of small parts to lose. I'm using the stainless 24" octagonal which is a big lump for speed shooting (especially for Rose) so I've been looking for a 16" Puma. For Silhouette though, the 24" Rossi with aperture sight in .357 Mag is my choice, it has the precision required. One issue with 1892 design is that a stoppage that prevents you closing the bolt can make it impossible to disassemble the rifle. You need to be able to close the bolt to be able to drift out the pin through the bolt via a port for disassembly. My mate's Chiappa broke the ejector and the spring locked up the action. I had to beat it to get the bolt to close enough to be able to get that pin out. It's always in the back of my mind how easily these can become a paperweight, but I'm sure there must be some way of sacrificing some component and being able to get it apart - hopefully I never have to find out. The Rossi is also the easiest to load and fire single shots as you just open the lever, drop a round into the top and close the lever.

For Cowboy I'm finding the Uberti .38 Special to be my first choice despite being more more clunky and slower than the Rossi. It has a longer throw with distinct "notches" but the controlled-feed of the lifter block makes it pretty reliable. I do have some stoppages that are generally due to the ammo but when it gets grubby I get some failures to extract which are usually easy to clear, the extractor is on the small side I think. The biggest advantage though is that I'm enjoying shooting blackpowder now and the 1866 is just so much easier to strip for cleaning. It's still painful as the guts fall out of the receiver when you open it up, and it can be fiddly getting it all back in there, but it's not complex. Mine is totally OEM but there are heaps of replacement parts you can get for these to speed them up if you want to. Loading singles has an extra step with the 1866, you open the lever, then press the lifter block down to expose the chamber, then drop a round on top, and close the lever.

The .38 and .357 are essentially the same cartridge when it comes to reloading so there's no real difference there, but the .357 does have significantly more power when loading hot for hunting or knocking big lumps of steel over. The .44 Mag does cost a bit more to reload, the brass is more expensive and you use more lead and powder. If you're scavenging lead for free that can be ignored but pistol powders are still expensive and can be difficult to get, so it is worth considering when deciding on a purchase.

.45 Colt is also another great cartridge that should be considered.

I also have the Winchester 1894, though mine is in .30-30. It's a great design as well but is a big job to disassemble for thorough cleaning, with tiny bits to lose.

Winchester 1894 .30-30

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[bigrich]

thanks for your opinions and musings blade . i found the 357 marlin i had quite accurate and very reliable in feeding . i fitted a aftermarket trigger kit which gave it a fantastic trigger , a low powered scope on the marlin was a treat too . i've had a couple of 94 30-30 winchesters , including a 64A that would shoot 1 1/2" groups at 100 with a lyman peep . after that all bets were off for grouping . i weighed it and it was 5.5 lb ,seemed to have a slimmer barrel than your run of the mill 94 as well . i've found half tube mags without barrel bands shoot better than full length tube mags as well. my main hunting rifles are bolts for more downrange energy and accuracy, but some of the country i hunt would be well served with a lever gun . personally i can't see the sense in 30-30 marlins with a scope as they weigh about the same as a bolt gun in 308 or similar . 94 winchesters are great , and a real good length and weight ,but my eyes can't use iron sights for hunting good enough . winchesters, especially 92's are a incredibly engineered bit of gear when you get them apart for sure , but you need three hands to put them back together

i've had a few rossi's in 357, and have found them trouble free after a few tweaks as well as being really accurate . i'm contemplating getting a octagonal barrel rossi in 357, for it's rigid barrel , and chopping it to 20" to make a shorter better balanced rifle than the 24" barrel version . the intended use is comps for fun as well as scrubby gully country i hunt for pigs . my biggest concern is how well a 357 with say 158gn xtp's would go on big porkers . i would think the 44mag much better , but i've read the 357 is better for penetration and bullet expansion. cheers

[Blr243]

I also had a marlin 44 mag that I didn’t like and a Rossi 357 that I loved. ( both in my early twenties ). I actually used it with open sights plenty of pig hunting in the brigalow. More recently I have a Rossi 357 citadel I find I just don’t need the power of a 44 mag. Love the weight of the 357 for carry in the bush. Weighs nothing

[mickb]

Hi Bigrich, I owned a few 357 and 44 as you know. Both great calibres. In north QLD they are go to guns for high volume pig mob shooting. I just edited my post couple times as it was too wordy.

In a nut shell 357 with a good bullet like a 158xtp or 180xtp pushed hard will come close to 30-30 performance. No problem for any pig

Regards 44 with the right ammo it is superior in the field, bullets being equal, and more popular up here. There is some s**t ammo on the shelves though. The average bloke who grabs S&B, Blazer etc will think the 44 is a joke as the stuff is only 50-65% full power.

Apples to apples though take a 158XTP in 357 versus its equivalent the 240XTP in the 44mag. Roughly same speeds capable and one is 50% more powerful than the other. If 357 matches the 44 with that sort of margin we are saying a 44matches the 500S&W....cmon.

No advantage to penetration for the 357 on game. That furfy originates from yanks shooting hardcast through wooden blocks on youtube.

The 357 has some hunting bonuses though, lower recoil and blast threshold, easier on your ears, the dogs and the neighbours, you can also one hand it, not that I advocate it but all sorts of things happen when you are on vehicles in thick stuff or bailing things up. _Power wise though, the 44 is a level up where you can also plug donks and horses with the right bullet and not stress as much about angles.

regards the 44-40 it can run similar power to a 44mag in a strong modern gun, they have about the same capacity- ballistic equals for the handloading hunter. The 44 wins for off the shelf ammo, more gun options, dont need to lube its cases, more brass options and can run 44 special for fun and even 44 russian single shot. The 44-40 has the cool factor and can load it reduced in 410 shotguns( used to be a factory ammo option back in the day)

[bladeracer]

Apples to apples though take a 158XTP in 357 versus its equivalent the 240XTP in the 44mag. Roughly same speeds capable and one is 50% more powerful than the other. If 357 matches the 44 with that sort of margin we are saying a 44matches the 500S&W....cmon.

Yep, you can load the .44 Mag down to .357 levels but you can't load the .357 Mag anywhere near the level of the .44 Mag.

[mickb]

Anthony george the gun bullder in the NT has used his 44mag to take buff and banteng in number. Not that he advocates it, there are more suitable calibres around for that sort of game.

[bigrich]

Hi Bigrich, I owned a few 357 and 44 as you know. Both great calibres. In north QLD they are go to guns for high volume pig mob shooting. I just edited my post couple times as it was too wordy.

In a nut shell 357 with a good bullet like a 158xtp or 180xtp pushed hard will come close to 30-30 performance. No problem for any pig

Regards 44 with the right ammo it is superior in the field, bullets being equal, and more popular up here. There is some s**t ammo on the shelves though. The average bloke who grabs S&B, Blazer etc will think the 44 is a joke as the stuff is only 50-65% full power.

Apples to apples though take a 158XTP in 357 versus its equivalent the 240XTP in the 44mag. Roughly same speeds capable and one is 50% more powerful than the other. If 357 matches the 44 with that sort of margin we are saying a 44matches the 500S&W....cmon.

No advantage to penetration for the 357 on game. That furfy originates from yanks shooting hardcast through wooden blocks on youtube.

The 357 has some hunting bonuses though, lower recoil and blast threshold, easier on your ears, the dogs and the neighbours, you can also one hand it, not that I advocate it but all sorts of things happen when you are on vehicles in thick stuff or bailing things up. _Power wise though, the 44 is a level up where you can also plug donks and horses with the right bullet and not stress as much about angles.

regards the 44-40 it can run similar power to a 44mag in a strong modern gun, they have about the same capacity- ballistic equals for the handloading hunter. The 44 wins for off the shelf ammo, more gun options, dont need to lube its cases, more brass options and can run 44 special for fun and even 44 russian single shot. The 44-40 has the cool factor and can load it reduced in 410 shotguns( used to be a factory ammo option back in the day)

in reality , most pigs i hunt are around 40-50kg ,most of the time . there are a few big solitary boars on the block i hunt that are downright cunning . wouldn't want to rely on a light 357 load with them . but a 44mag is ovakill for most of what i hunt, . would a 44mag make the smaller pigs more dead , or would i end up with a few runners due to lack of expansion in your opinion ?

[bigrich]

I also had a marlin 44 mag that I didn’t like and a Rossi 357 that I loved. ( both in my early twenties ). I actually used it with open sights plenty of pig hunting in the brigalow. More recently I have a Rossi 357 citadel I find I just don’t need the power of a 44 mag. Love the weight of the 357 for carry in the bush. Weighs nothing

hey mate , i been looking at the citadel . good rugged little gun from what i can see . can you give us a review on your 357 citadel ?

seems like a lot of us have a soft spot for lever guns

[mickb]

Hey Bigrich in either calibre you have bullets that expand as well as each other so comes down to what you load. I dont use factory ammo, particularly in the 44mag as I can handload to 150-200fps more and only use XTP bullets as the nose allows early expansion. I think with a 357 you will be well served, I loved mine, really only upgraded to 44mag for subsonic loads. If you have the powders I'd load up stiff loads of the 158xtp and would be suprised if anything walks away from it.

The 158xtp for the record expands down to 1000fps( not full expansion, the nose starts peeling back). The 240XTP in the 44mag needs about 1150fps impact so its slightly tougher but same ballpark. If you started this bullet out at 1750fps its still expanding well past 120 yards. The 200XTP in the 44mag is actually softer than both the above, nose starts peeling back in the 900's. The 300XTP in the 44mag I never used but its a much tougher bullet than the rest , needs 1300fps impact or more according to youtube. Wouldnt even expand in a handgun but the yanks still load it lol.

[bigrich]

Hey Bigrich in either calibre you have bullets that expand as well as each other so comes down to what you load. I dont use factory ammo, particularly in the 44mag as I can handload to 150-200fps more and only use XTP bullets as the nose allows early expansion. I think with a 357 you will be well served, I loved mine, really only upgraded to 44mag for subsonic loads. If you have the powders I'd load up stiff loads of the 158xtp and would be suprised if anything walks away from it.

The 158xtp for the record expands down to 1000fps( not full expansion, the nose starts peeling back). The 240XTP in the 44mag needs about 1150fps impact so its slightly tougher but same ballpark. If you started this bullet out at 1750fps its still expanding well past 120 yards. The 200XTP in the 44mag is actually softer than both the above, nose starts peeling back in the 900's. The 300XTP in the 44mag I never used but its a much tougher bullet than the rest , needs 1300fps impact or more according to youtube. Wouldnt even expand in a handgun but the yanks still load it lol.

thanks for the info mate . i read nathan fosters knowledge base to get a idea on various rounds and projectile performance, but first hand experience from various sources is gold to me . thanks mate . sounds like the 357 would suit me best for practical reasons,i pretty well much already knew that , but the 44mag has a appeal of it's own. ADI 2205 is reasonably obtainable , wish hodgson lil gun was . was getting a chronoed 1840 fps out of a 18.5" barrelled marlin i had years ago with 158 xtp's and lil gun. i gave up on levers for hunting as the property's i hunted at the time called for longer shots than a pistol cartridge was capable of . in ssaa big game classic cartridge rules the cartridge year cut off is 1939 , 357mag came out in 1936 . so it'd make a good dual purpose round for comps and poking around gullies on the property i hunt now. cheers

[mickb]

if thats nathan foster from ballisticstudies, I take his stuff with a grain of salt. He quoted expansion levels of precisely the same bullets we're are discussing above during one his long articles, hornady XTP's and turns out he wasnt quoting personal experience, he was quoting hornadies expansion envelope chart. Which would seem fine except hornadies chart is totally gooned up. It has XTP's expanding as low as 700fps which none of them do, every calibre and bullet is bungled. Its well known amonst subsonic hunters. I contacted him about it and it was a bit of s tap dance. So to be honest Im not sure whether anything I read is his experience or paraphrasing

[bigrich]

if thats nathan foster from ballisticstudies, I take his stuff with a grain of salt. He quoted expansion levels of precisely the same bullets we're are discussing above during one his long articles, hornady XTP's and turns out he wasnt quoting personal experience, he was quoting hornadies expansion envelope chart. Which would seem fine except hornadies chart is totally gooned up. It has XTP's expanding as low as 700fps which none of them do, every calibre and bullet is bungled. Its well known amonst subsonic hunters. I contacted him about it and it was a bit of s tap dance. So to be honest Im not sure whether anything I read is his experience or paraphrasing

he's been on the money with a lot of cartridges and projectiles i've used . but until i can verify with my own experience , i do take internet info and opinions with a grain of salt . that's why i ask questions and pick peoples brains on this forum, and to hear their first hand experience

[mickb]

Fair one mate , yeah I cant say his info is bad, more found it difficult to work out where his experience ends and where he was quoting another.

[mickb]

I actually went to edit my post out as looking too pissy on a second reading, but you had already quoted me

[Larry]

The 44-40 is a tricky one as the modern ammo for it is lack luster and very under powered but use black powder and it is a different gun with some recoil and it hits so much harder.

[bigrich]

The 44-40 is a tricky one as the modern ammo for it is lack luster and very under powered but use black powder and it is a different gun with some recoil and it hits so much harder.

Yeah , factory ammo is way too expensive for me. It’d be a hand loading proposition for me. Saw a marlin 444 for sale online, that’s got me thinking. Then I saw a topic on another forum by mickb on building a 444 bolt gun, p14 in 444. Then a fella, bob nelson pipes up about building a 444 on a No4 Enfield. Man I get sidetracked easily. lol

[mickb]

lol same mate. if you want the easiest way into a 44 cal big banger get a CVA in 44Mag reamed out to 444marlin with a long throat. It will push jacketed 410 grain custom bullets over 2000fps, aka 400Nitro express power.

[bigrich]

lol same mate. if you want the easiest way into a 44 cal big banger get a CVA in 44Mag reamed out to 444marlin with a long throat. It will push jacketed 410 grain custom bullets over 2000fps, aka 400Nitro express power.

i had a cva stainless in 45-70 years ago . it was a good gun . but i'd like more than a single shot . cva's have been factory made in 444 and 35 whelen as well

[mickb]

yeah I actually tried getting the 444 over here in CVA but herrons or OSA( cant remember which one imports them) wouldnt come to the party, even as a one off. Hence the fellas going the reamer route on a 44.

The 444 long throated will allow bullets seated out to about 3" COAL and there is a source of 410 grain woodleigh bullets( 425 westley richards JSP bullets swaged down) It becomes a bonafide single shot elephant gun, .330+ sectional density bullet at over 2000fps, 4000ftlbs+ Africa legal for anything. But wasnt real interested in a single shot either at the time.

[mickb]

Dont forget the 45colt btw too. On a strong lever action like the Rossi or win 92 will edge out the 44mag slightly for power as well. Not a great margin maybe 10-15% all up thanks to slightly greater diametre and a couple grains more capacity.

Obviously for off the shelf ammo its nowhere near as good as almost all its factory loads are olden day cowboy power.

For a handloader you have good options. All the bullets designed for the 45 ACP which Im pretty sure will load, if you like mucking around with subsonics or low powered loads they expand way down to low low speeds like 770fps impact. The 250XTP for the 45 colt will as well.
The 300XTP in 45 cal is actually softer than the 240xtp and 300XTP in the 44mag. Its looking to be my go-to bullet in my 454 casull. Starts to expand in the low 1000's and flattens almost completely at 2000fps impact and anything between is fine.

I have seen 45 colt loads on the net 1650-1700fps with this bullet. Consider most 44mag ammo off the shelf only gets 1700fps with a 240gn, that 45 colt load has a serious margin. Its only 100-150fps or so slower than some factory 45-70 ammo...

If I had to do it all again and being into handloading I would have set up for 45colt, not 44mag. What put me off 45 colt originally is the occasional rumour of oversize chambers in the calibre. No idea now whether this is prevalent or rare or exaggerated myth. And then convincing myself of random stuff like " if Im hunting and lose my ammo and need full power loads, I can just get them off the shelf with 44mag, but for 45 colt Id be stuck with low powered factory ammo". Havent had that problem yet, if Im stupid enough to forget my ammo on a hunt, its my own fault.

No good reasons to change from the 357 idea for your hunting btw, just waffling on here about pistol cartridges

[Bugman]

I was away on the weekend out past Parkes and was lucky enough to be lent a Marlin lever action in .357. Very effective in the thick scrub, on pigs and the odd goat. Would I buy one? Still thinking about it.

[bigrich]

I was away on the weekend out past Parkes and was lucky enough to be lent a Marlin lever action in .357. Very effective in the thick scrub, on pigs and the odd goat. Would I buy one? Still thinking about it.

with the pic you got for your forum avatar , i think you should get one

[mickb]

So mate did you decide on a 357?.

[bigrich]

So mate did you decide on a 357?.

still umming and ahhing about it all mate . i've got too many ideas and plans but not a lot of cash . i like the idea of a marlin in 357, cause it's a easy thing to scope or red dot for my 57 year old eyes . whilst a pistol cal lever is a lot of fun and handy in the scrub, the range limitations are causing me to stop and think.
2205 and other pistol powders are unobtainable again , so reloading is not possible .

i've been shocking in the past for impulse buying , i'm trying hard to think things through more these days . i want another rifle, but something practical and useful for what i do hunting/comps, and where i hunt . i've got the idea to do a 35 whelen build . it'd get me into another comp , but it is overkill for pigs ,and projectiles have gone up quite a bit . decisions, decisions

[mickb]

Fair calls mate. You can squeeze 150 yards out of a 357 'if' you find an accurate enough load but its no rifle cartridge. Appropriate powders would be the clincher too. Hornady custom factory ammo loads the 158XTP but its not an overly powerful loading, about 1250fps. Probably get 1650-1700fps in a rifle at a guess? If you can handload you can beat that by 200fps+.They tend to load their 44 custom stuff with a lot more sauce incidentally.

For interests sake
158 XTP at 1900fps, BC of .206, 110 yard zero( 100m)
Shoots 1 inch high at 75 yards and 3.5" low at 150.
Velocity at 150 is still 1418, so still full expansion to 55-60cal. The bullet can expand down to low 1000's.

444 might be worth a look after all mate, cheapish projectiles in 44, can push them to 2400fps+ , medium ranges. Still a good scrub gun, handier and faster handling than any bolt, runs on rifle powders, less recoil and more range than a 45-70 . Im a terrible enabler.

[Oldbloke]

If you haven't already ready got one just buy a boring 308 BA, and put a red dot or 2-7×33 on it.
Yes, boring, because it works.

[Oldbloke]

This would make a good avatar if modified.

Chuck_Connors_The_Rifleman 1962.JPG (152.36 KiB) Viewed 4175 times