Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

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Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by bigtone » 23 Aug 2015, 7:16 pm

Does anyone in Queensland actually own a 375/408 cheytac or a 416 barrett? Apparently these are a new category called "high calibre catB".
It's not banned in Queensland but you just can't have one!
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Post by trekin » 24 Aug 2015, 3:48 am

Can you reference this "high calibre catB" thing as there is no mention in the Cat Reg, or on the QPS website?
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Post by brett1868 » 24 Aug 2015, 7:54 am

bigtone wrote:Does anyone in Queensland actually own a 375/408 cheytac or a 416 barrett? Apparently these are a new category called "high calibre catB".


No chance on any of the above. The tards in government up there crap themselves when you mention 338 Lap. I spoke to the Police up there about doing some hunting in S/W QLD and was told I'd be jailed if I crossed the border with a 338, 375, 416 or 50. I have no idea why they fear these calibres so much as they are expensive to acquire, expensive to shoot and heavy to move around.
If you're going to choose one of these, go the .375 Cheytac as it has the best availability of reloading components available locally.
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by Die Judicii » 24 Aug 2015, 1:25 pm

brett1868 wrote:
bigtone wrote:Does anyone in Queensland actually own a 375/408 cheytac or a 416 barrett? Apparently these are a new category called "high calibre catB".


No chance on any of the above. The tards in government up there crap themselves when you mention 338 Lap. I spoke to the Police up there about doing some hunting in S/W QLD and was told I'd be jailed if I crossed the border with a 338, 375, 416 or 50. I have no idea why they fear these calibres so much as they are expensive to acquire, expensive to shoot and heavy to move around.
If you're going to choose one of these, go the .375 Cheytac as it has the best availability of reloading components available locally.


Correct me if I'm wrong and or outdated, but ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

When I used to live in the southern states, I was led to believe by both Victorian and Sth Australian F/Arms branches that Sth Aust, Vic, NSW, ACT, and Qld had reciprocal rights as far as firearms licenses and firearm ownership was concerned.

Thus one could conclude that if you legally owned a ( for instance, 338 Lap ) in any of those states, you should be able to legally cross those borders with that firearm.
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by brett1868 » 24 Aug 2015, 2:00 pm

Correct, there are reciprocal rights for firearms licences in other states and I can take any calibre I like into Vic or S.A as I've spoken to their respective registries and confirmed I can enter with a 50BMG and anything under that. I then spoke to the QLD firearms branch and was given a hard time by some surly type sergeant threatening me with gaol if I dared cross the border with .338 Lap, .375 Cheytac or a .416 Barrett to which I replied "I guess I can't bring my 50BMG then", the line went dead....

Funny enough, the DTA importer is based in QLD (Aaron from Interdiction) had a large shipment of rifles held by customs because they were deemed non compliant with QLD legislation. In short, he appealed to the government about unfair restriction on trade as certain rifles were destined to be sold in other states where they were compliant. I scanned my P.T.A and emailed to him along with a letter of intent to purchase to assist in efforts to have them released. Rifle was released in time and now resides in my safe. Even the mighty NIOA don't import the .416 or 50BMG Barrett's despite being the only official importer in Aus.
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Post by Die Judicii » 24 Aug 2015, 4:51 pm

It would be interesting to say the least Brett, if you rang back (and tried to speak to the same guy :unknown: ),,,, and asked him to show you documentation of where that "ruling" is legislated in the Qld licensing. :oops: :oops:

Or is it just the bully of the dept playing with "the big stick" while the real boss is busy doing other things. :unknown:

It'd also be interesting to call their bluff on your legal ownership and your rights under the "Reciprocal rights" agreement so to speak.
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by brett1868 » 24 Aug 2015, 5:57 pm

I'll give them a call on Wednesday and ask the same questions and report back. Last time I dealt with a civilian who then passed me onto the surly Sargent, I was very polite and professional. I told them I was planning a hunting trip into S.W QLD for feral pigs and wanted to ensure I complied with any laws / rules that may be in place. I was asked what calibre I intended to use, I said 338 Lap and he informed me that if I brought that across the border I'd be up for a "Striped Suntan". He wasn't particularly friendly or professional and I regret not writing his name down.

I'm fairly confident with my current form that I can take a pig out to maybe 1500m with the Cheytac so I can sit in Free NSW and shoot the repressed feral pigs from across the border :) Might stop off for a few days of load development at Narrabri on the way up and practise out to 2000m with the 1/2" so I can shoot further across the border. Obviously this is all theoretical and said in jest :)
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Post by David Brown » 24 Aug 2015, 9:40 pm

"…….. thanks for letting me know sir, now do you have a pen handy? My email address is brett1868@bigpuddle.com, would you kindly put that response down in an email and kindly reference the legislation that supports that position please, as neither of us would want to be wrong."

This really gets up my nose.

Legislation says what it means and means what it says. There is no "or as per the opinion of the officer on the day" written into the legislation. About time a few folk started ordering and ponying up with lawyers.

I am really getting sick of the lot of them.

And you guys in NSW, especially any CAT D folks, your licences and the CAT D firearms "privileges" are about to do what metho does on hot surfaces shortly. Watch this space, unless something is done about it.

It is all part of the death by a thousand cuts. :evil:
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by brett1868 » 25 Aug 2015, 12:06 am

Just spent an hour searching through the QLD firearms legislation and I can't find anything preventing me crossing the border with anything up to and including Barrett .416. The 50BMG is a CAT R firearm according to QLD category's but is CAT B in NSW and I am legally entitled to own and use it down here so theoretically I should be able to shoot in QLD under the reciprocal license recognition scheme. I'm very curious now and will take David's advice for written confirmation if I can shoot the larger calibre's there or the exact piece of legislation preventing me.
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Post by trekin » 25 Aug 2015, 5:24 am

brett1868 wrote:Just spent an hour searching through the QLD firearms legislation and I can't find anything preventing me crossing the border with anything up to and including Barrett .416. The 50BMG is a CAT R firearm according to QLD category's but is CAT B in NSW and I am legally entitled to own and use it down here so theoretically I should be able to shoot in QLD under the reciprocal license recognition scheme. I'm very curious now and will take David's advice for written confirmation if I can shoot the larger calibre's there or the exact piece of legislation preventing me.

I'll save you some time and probably your sanity,
Firstly the easy one; 'reciprocal license recognition scheme' and the 50 BMG issue. From the QLD Weapons Act, Section 32 in full states;
32 Temporary recognition of interstate licences for particular purposes
(1) This section applies if a person who holds a licence, permit or authority issued under the law of another State entitling the person to possession of a weapon visits Queensland—
(a) to participate in a shooting competition conducted by an approved shooting club or approved by the commissioner; or
(b) for another purpose specified under a regulation for this section.
(2) The person’s licence is taken to authorise possession and use of the weapon in accordance with this Act
(a) for the purpose of participating in the competition; or
(b) for the other purpose specified under the regulation—if the person complies with any conditions specified in the regulation for the purpose.
In a nutshell, under the 'reciprocal license recognition scheme' QLD WLB recognizes the existence of your psychical licence, not the conditions that it was issued to you in your State, as long as you comply with QLD laws, ergo 50 BMG is Cat R here, and you would be charged with procession of a restricted firearm. This 'reciprocal license recognition scheme' works both ways, as, if I where to cross the boarder down Mexico way with my Cat C's or Cat D firearms , I would be facing the same treatment from the Federale's down there.
Now as to this 'higher calibre' restriction, if you push QLD WLB enough you will eventually get a statement with the words "Policy and Procedures" somewhere in it. These Policy and Procedures are a set of rules and work around's written by 'The Authorised Officer' who is granted this power by legislation, so long as these Policy and Procedures remain consistent with the Principles and Objects of the Act, which are:
3 Principles and object of Act
(1) The principles underlying this Act are as follows—
(a) weapon possession and use are subordinate to the need to ensure public and individual safety;
(b) public and individual safety is improved by imposing strict controls on the possession of weapons and requiring the safe and secure storage and carriage of weapons.
(2) The object of this Act is to prevent the misuse of weapons.
(An epic fail by anyone's on all levels.)
How this works, for example, the AO, concerned about 'public and individual safety', is empowered to restrict the use of these larger calibre rifles to ranges that have been authorised by him for the use of larger calibre rifles, or to properties deemed by him to be adequate in size to discharge such a firearm. This does not ban their use by QLD LAFO's, but requires an endorsement to our licence if we can meet the requirements of the restrictions. This endorsement is to QLD issued licences only and is not extended to out of State licences.
Now, if you really wanted to bring one of your 'fiddy's' up here, you should look at re-barreling one in 12,7 x 97.
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Post by beerd » 25 Aug 2015, 10:03 am

David Brown wrote:And you guys in NSW, especially any CAT D folks, your licences and the CAT D firearms "privileges" are about to do what metho does on hot surfaces shortly.


I think you might be talking to the wind there :|
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Post by David Brown » 25 Aug 2015, 11:36 am

brett1868 wrote:Just spent an hour searching through the QLD firearms legislation and I can't find anything preventing me crossing the border with anything up to and including Barrett .416. The 50BMG is a CAT R firearm according to QLD category's but is CAT B in NSW and I am legally entitled to own and use it down here so theoretically I should be able to shoot in QLD under the reciprocal license recognition scheme. I'm very curious now and will take David's advice for written confirmation if I can shoot the larger calibre's there or the exact piece of legislation preventing me.



See there ya go……..I am not at all surprised there is a sneaky little difference I have a gun that is fine anywhere but NSW and WA, so it goes both ways. So much for the NFA.

Read the laws and be 100% sure you know for sure, and don't trust the copper or whoever on the phone. Of course you can believe everything you read on the internet :lol:
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Post by bigtone » 26 Aug 2015, 8:05 pm

Just to clarify about the High Calibre Cat B List. If you ask Qld weapons licensing for a 338lap, 375Cheytac, 408cheytac, 416Barrett, or 460steyr, you will be told that they are on "the list". If you ask where "the list" is in the weapons act or any other legislation, you will be told that it is just something that they use in at weapons licensing. If you ask for a copy of "the list" you will be told that you cant have one. If your PTA application is for a gun on "the list" then you will have to jump more hoops than a circus performer. The latest hoop i am jumping is that the authorized officer will "seek to condition your license to restrict the firearms use to properties that you have provided permission letters over". When I asked where this is in the legislation, I was told that it is in section16,b,(ii) which I read as relating to a new license application and not related to a PTA application. Any thoughts?
But I must ask again, does anyone in queensland actually have a 416barrett, 408cheytac or 375cheytac?
It's not banned in Queensland but you just can't have one!
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Post by David Brown » 26 Aug 2015, 8:37 pm

Let me ask an "expert" mate of mine ;-)

You might be best getting an active shooter and lawyer to act on your behalf. They won't like having to defend against someone who knows the law better than they do.

They are applying opinion in my opinion :-)
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Post by trekin » 27 Aug 2015, 6:51 am

bigtone wrote:Just to clarify about the High Calibre Cat B List. If you ask Qld weapons licensing for a 338lap, 375Cheytac, 408cheytac, 416Barrett, or 460steyr, you will be told that they are on "the list". If you ask where "the list" is in the weapons act or any other legislation, you will be told that it is just something that they use in at weapons licensing. If you ask for a copy of "the list" you will be told that you cant have one. If your PTA application is for a gun on "the list" then you will have to jump more hoops than a circus performer. The latest hoop i am jumping is that the authorized officer will "seek to condition your license to restrict the firearms use to properties that you have provided permission letters over". When I asked where this is in the legislation, I was told that it is in section16,b,(ii) which I read as relating to a new license application and not related to a PTA application. Any thoughts?
But I must ask again, does anyone in queensland actually have a 416barrett, 408cheytac or 375cheytac?

To answer your last question first, yes, I know of (and have shot it), a QLD LAFO with a 416 Barrett, I also know of at least one authorised 338 Lap. Now, as to your first question, firstly, with the exception of the wrong chapter and verse cited by the person you spoke to (Section 25 (1)(b) I believe is the one that should have been cited), the information you have received is consistent with my response to brett1868 earlier. And if you are up to the "seek to condition your license to restrict the firearms use to properties that you have provided permission letters over", then I would suggest that you have correctly crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's, and are home and hosed as it would be useless to endorse your licence if they were not going to grant the PTA.
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Post by bigfellascott » 27 Aug 2015, 6:56 am

brett1868 wrote:
bigtone wrote:Does anyone in Queensland actually own a 375/408 cheytac or a 416 barrett? Apparently these are a new category called "high calibre catB".


No chance on any of the above. The tards in government up there crap themselves when you mention 338 Lap. I spoke to the Police up there about doing some hunting in S/W QLD and was told I'd be jailed if I crossed the border with a 338, 375, 416 or 50. I have no idea why they fear these calibres so much as they are expensive to acquire, expensive to shoot and heavy to move around.
If you're going to choose one of these, go the .375 Cheytac as it has the best availability of reloading components available locally.


That's the reason! :thumbsup:
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by Triang » 27 Aug 2015, 3:49 pm

bigtone wrote:The latest hoop i am jumping is that the authorized officer will "seek to condition your license to restrict the firearms use to properties that you have provided permission letters over". When I asked where this is in the legislation, I was told that it is in section16,b,(ii) which I read as relating to a new license application and not related to a PTA application. Any thoughts?


I'm with you, that's clearly wrong. It clearly says "issue of license". No where does it say it applies to a "Permit to Acquire".

Here it is: Part 2, section 16 of the act:

16 Issue of licence

(1) A licence must be-

(a) in the approved form; and

(b) endorsed with-
(i) the weapon or category of weapon the possession of which is authorised by the licence; and
(ii) any conditions decided by an authorised officer; and
(iii) if the licence is an armourer’s, collector’s or dealer’s licence or a security licence (organisation) - the place approved for the secure storage of the weapon or category of weapon possession of which is authorised by the licence.

(2) A condition or any other information to be endorsed on a licence may be endorsed on the licence or a certificate issued for the licence.

(3) The condition or information may be endorsed on the licence or certificate by a word that is given a meaning by a code prescribed under a regulation.

(4) A regulation may prescribe things that must be provided for on the approved form of licence.


Lining up sections 16,b,(ii) as he's told you...

{A licence must be} {endorsed with} {any conditions decided by an authorised officer}.

If he has decided is "to condition your license to restrict the firearms use to properties that you have provided permission letters over" that would mean issuing the license with the restriction that you can only use your firearms on the properties you have provided permission letters for.

Once a license was issued that part of the legislation would have nothing to do with PTAs. They are covered separately under Part 3, Division 3, sections 38 - 48. Amazingly Division 3 is titled "Permits to acquire" but apparently that's too cryptic for the guy you spoke to?
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by trekin » 28 Aug 2015, 8:56 am

Triang wrote:
bigtone wrote:The latest hoop i am jumping is that the authorized officer will "seek to condition your license to restrict the firearms use to properties that you have provided permission letters over". When I asked where this is in the legislation, I was told that it is in section16,b,(ii) which I read as relating to a new license application and not related to a PTA application. Any thoughts?


I'm with you, that's clearly wrong. It clearly says "issue of license". No where does it say it applies to a "Permit to Acquire".

Here it is: Part 2, section 16 of the act:

16 Issue of licence

(1) A licence must be-

(a) in the approved form; and

(b) endorsed with-
(i) the weapon or category of weapon the possession of which is authorised by the licence; and
(ii) any conditions decided by an authorised officer; and
(iii) if the licence is an armourer’s, collector’s or dealer’s licence or a security licence (organisation) - the place approved for the secure storage of the weapon or category of weapon possession of which is authorised by the licence.

(2) A condition or any other information to be endorsed on a licence may be endorsed on the licence or a certificate issued for the licence.

(3) The condition or information may be endorsed on the licence or certificate by a word that is given a meaning by a code prescribed under a regulation.

(4) A regulation may prescribe things that must be provided for on the approved form of licence.


Lining up sections 16,b,(ii) as he's told you...

{A licence must be} {endorsed with} {any conditions decided by an authorised officer}.

If he has decided is "to condition your license to restrict the firearms use to properties that you have provided permission letters over" that would mean issuing the license with the restriction that you can only use your firearms on the properties you have provided permission letters for.

Once a license was issued that part of the legislation would have nothing to do with PTAs. They are covered separately under Part 3, Division 3, sections 38 - 48. Amazingly Division 3 is titled "Permits to acquire" but apparently that's too cryptic for the guy you spoke to?

I read this as the OP is recounting a telecon conversion, in which case I would not be surprised the that the context of the conversion, when correct grammar is applied, would read as "to condition your license to restrict the firearm's use to properties that you have provided permission letters over". This condition would be for that particular firearm only, and would issued on a form 2B, the blueish piece of paper with your registered firearms listed on it, and which is a part of the firearms licence that is supposed to carried with the plastic part.
Section 16 (b)(ii) is the wrong chapter and verse to cite in this case, however the endorsement of his licence is relevant to the issue of the PTA in this case, as WLB in all their wisdom, have deem certain large calibre firearms more of a concern to public safety, and require us to jump though some extra hoops to acquire one, one of those hoops being having your licence endorsed for it's use.
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by bigfellascott » 28 Aug 2015, 9:05 am

What benefit does this restricting firearms use to a property you have permission for do to prevent crime, after all isn't that the whole reason for all this crap in the first place is to save people from the crazy gun owners of Aus!
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Post by David Brown » 28 Aug 2015, 1:11 pm

Here is my friends reply

In a nutshell this is their policy, a prime example of how they won't stick by the legislation and instead go above and beyond to make policy that suits their personal feelings on what you should and shouldn't be allowed. You can still get those calibre but they restrict you to actual properties (as if you were a primary producer with category d firearms!). If you apply for these calibre, they must approve it if you have a large property to shoot on or you're shooting at the Tin Can Bay SSAA that permits those calibres. They will drag their heels with permitting it and you need to be very clear after they have had it for a few weeks - either grant the PTA or send your rejection letter so I can take the matter to QCAT. You will then see it being granted in most cases...
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by Harper » 31 Aug 2015, 2:30 pm

bigfellascott wrote:What benefit does this restricting firearms use to a property you have permission for do to prevent crime, after all isn't that the whole reason for all this crap in the first place is to save people from the crazy gun owners of Aus!


Maybe if your reason is cattle rustling you haven specify the properties you're going to steal from and are limited to those :lol:
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Post by bigtone » 31 Aug 2015, 4:30 pm

It's interesting that you say that Tin Can Bay range can handle those calibres. QWL said that there are NO ranges in queensland that can handle that calibre. Part of the condition that they are hoping to apply to my license is that i cannot fire the rifle at any range in queensland without the express prior written approval of the Authorized Officer. Also noteworthy is that the same AO has verbally advised the Amamoor range that the 375/408 cheytac and the 416 barrett are NOT to be discharged at that range. Note that it was NOT in writing. Also noteworthy is that there are a list of license conditions in schedule 1A of the weapons regulation and surprisingly there is no such thing as a "999" code. I always thought that cops were supposed to uphold and enforce the law, NOT make up laws!
It's not banned in Queensland but you just can't have one!
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by David Brown » 01 Sep 2015, 10:49 am

Probably explains a lot….

I'm mobile right now so I can't quite the exact section but an authorised officer has the authority to impose whatever restrictions they wish under a condition code, hence the reason Tom Cavanagh up there refers to himself as "God".

Everyone with the high calibre gets a restriction placed on them like a cat d which limits them to properties only. I wouldn't accept that no range business and I'd be asking for tin can bay SSAA which is approved for those calibres.

Wlb just use that power of the condition code to restrict and ultimately confiscate firearms as they see fit... And no one seems to want to do anything about that!
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by Kipper » 01 Sep 2015, 11:31 am

bigtone wrote:QWL said that there are NO ranges in queensland that can handle that calibre.


QWL said officially said? or some guy at the registry who wouldn't know a muzzle from a butt said?
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by bigtone » 01 Sep 2015, 9:05 pm

Kipper wrote:
bigtone wrote:QWL said that there are NO ranges in queensland that can handle that calibre.


QWL said officially said? or some guy at the registry who wouldn't know a muzzle from a butt said?



Yep AO Authoriton actually put that on paper. Strange that he needed the "999" code to say that as well.
Checked with the range owner today at Amamoor and she said that she would not allow the 416 to be fired there. I know from a previous conversation with her that the AO Authoriton has previously advised her (verbally and not on paper) that the 416barret is not to be fired there. I checked the range restrictions and it turns out that the Amamoor range and the Madden range seem to have the same restrictions being 9000ft-lbs of muzzle energy or 4100feet/sec muzzle velocity. If you load a 416 barrett with a 400grain round nose projectile and use a starting load to push the projectile at around 2450-2500 ft/sec then the muzzle energy is only 5500ft-lbs. How is that banned from being discharged then?

He does know the difference. He's perfected being a butt!
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by brett1868 » 01 Sep 2015, 11:28 pm

If you load a 416 barrett with a 400grain round nose projectile and use a starting load to push the projectile at around 2450-2500 ft/sec then the muzzle energy is only 5500ft-lbs. How is that banned from being discharged then?


Problem with the Barrett in Aus is the lack of projectile choices, there's the hand painted black 400Gr brass VLD from Ultratech in W.A or the you beaut Krusty brand custom made for me by Woodleigh 395Gr VLD. Any other non Barrett specific .416 projectile is not suitable for the Barrett and importing from the U.S is prohibitive based on cost. To get the best from these projectiles they need to be loaded to 3150fps to stabilise them properly, any slower then 3000fps and you're starting to waste money. I really don't understand the problems government fellas have with these calibers, yes they are powerful but they are very expensive to own and just as expensive to feed. No to mention a light version of the .416 is 12kg so not something the average crime would use to rob the local Qik-E-Mart.
Admittedly I have been tempted to try some other .416 projectiles as used in the Rigby but haven't had the time or seen any to try so what I've typed above may all be B.S but it's an educated theory :)
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by bigtone » 02 Sep 2015, 8:34 pm

It's banned by the fact that the "999" code says that it can't be fired there without the written express permission of Authoriton.
It's not banned in Queensland but you just can't have one!
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by Tonit » 09 Sep 2015, 10:56 am

All too complicated, and for the sake of what? :roll:

Take me back 20 years when were were trusted to not be criminals :cry:
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Re: Queensland Calibres and categories of weapons.

Post by New_shooter » 04 Jul 2016, 12:31 pm

You can get these high powered calibres in qld if you give weapons licencing supporting documents to prove you need such a high calibre rifle you need a letter of reference from the property owner stating why they need such weapons on their land and it also needs to state all other calibres that he allows on the land on top of that you need to do a stat dec on the experience you have had with these weapons and proof that you can provide accuracy on long range shots the only reason i know this is because i called weapons licencing this morning to ask the same thing
New_shooter
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