223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

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223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by demanda » 26 Dec 2015, 11:38 pm

Hi everyone,

I have a .22 and a .308 already but feel I need something a little smaller as the .308 is giving me a nasty flinching habit. I haven't been hunting all that long but shoot the usual bunnies, foxes, feral cats/dogs, roos etc... I'll be shooting pigs, camels, ponies etc... within the next little while.

I'm needing something light and accurate for a small person to shoot with recoil that won't dislocate my shoulder. A confidence boosting rifle.

Your thoughts?

Cheers :)
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by SendIt » 27 Dec 2015, 7:38 pm

Hey demanda,

So the .223 and .243 are very different cartridges.

As far as a hunting cartridge goes the .243 is one of the most versatile cartridges there are.

Use anything from 55gr pills for the small stuff up to 95gr pills which are hard hitting for bigger things.

A 95gr pill load will be about 25% less recoil than your .308 with a 150gr pill load as far as your flinch and shoulder go.

.223 recoil is nothing. About 85% less than your .308. Great for rabbits, foxes, cats at a few hundred metres so way further than your .22lr, but not a game cartridge in any sense.

I might be inclined to go with light loads in a .243 if I were you?
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by sandgroperbill » 27 Dec 2015, 8:13 pm

.243 is a good, all round cartridge, but not ideal for larger game (though if you do your part right it will take virtually anything), and relatively light recoil.

Having said that, the .223 is a good, versatile cartridge as well. It isn't suitable for the larger stuff, but you have a .308 for that. Its not overly loud, recoil is virtually nothing, its accurate and relatively cheap to run without needing to reload. Getting a 1:8 or 1:9 twist rate will give you more versatility with projectile rates, and if you decide on a .223, i would definitely reccomend you get a 1:8 or 1:9.

Given that you have a .308, i would suggest a .243 wouldn't be the best cal to accompany it. Perhaps get the .223 which is cheaper to run and practice practice practice until its second nature to you, then apply this to the .308 and you will have two centrefires that will cover everything from rabbits to camels.

Also, have you had anyone that has experience to help you out with the .308? Of the .30 cals it would be one of the lighter recoiling cals, abd a lot of people just don't realise how important it is for the rifle to fit right. If the butt is sitting in the wrong place, the rifle will beat you up and feel a lot worse than it really is, but sitting in the shoulder snugly it should be much more gentle.

Also, make sure your scope has sufficient eye relief, otherwise you may experience something called scope eye...
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by Strikey » 27 Dec 2015, 8:14 pm

I was missing a .22 calibre centrefire from the armoury for a long time before recently acquiring a .223, bloody good thing it is too, recently proved itself on a roo cull and an excellent calibre to introduce junior shooters to centrefire rifles with only a fleabite of recoil but, and this is only my opinion as I like something different, a more versatile inbetween calibre is my favourite .250 Savage :thumbsup: There are still some manufacturers chambering this calibre and it will handle projectiles up to 120grns which I think makes it more versatile than the revered .243Win, has less recoil and muzzle blast than the .243, with the .250Sav it is not fussy with what projectile you load as they will all hit pretty much at the same point of aim at 100yds, have not found another calibre that will do that, brass is easy to come by as you can just run 22/250 cases through 250Sav dies ;)
If you don't reload then go for a .223, buy a case of OSA 55grn Sierra Gameking ammo and be happy :D
Last edited by Strikey on 28 Dec 2015, 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by Oldbloke » 27 Dec 2015, 8:16 pm

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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by Chronos » 27 Dec 2015, 9:24 pm

IMHO if you're getting a flinch from a .308 the .243 won't be much better

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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by Baronvonrort » 27 Dec 2015, 11:55 pm

I would go the .243.
You can load 55gr Varmageddons or similar with minimum loads giving around 3500 fps, a .223 will shoot 55gr around 3200fps with max loads,.243 recoil will be a lot less than the .308.
The you also have the option of bigger heavier projectiles for the .243 which gives a greater range of ferals to take.

Guns are a tool, if you are only going after small feral species a .223 will be fine, if you are not sure of what species you might come across the .243 would be better.
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by Title_II » 28 Dec 2015, 7:59 am

Get a big cushy buttpad and have somebody coach you on shooting it as previously mentioned. Dry firing practice will also reduce flinch. Focus on the sight, not the target, and don't let it move. And have a surprise trigger break with every shot. .308 is pretty light. If you can't, you can't, I understand. But I think you can.
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by Oldbloke » 28 Dec 2015, 8:14 am

I think 223 and 308 are all you need. If a 223 wont do the job a 308 will. No real need to fill the gap. As the boys above said, work on you flinch.
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by GLS_1956 » 28 Dec 2015, 8:50 am

When I was growing up the 22 centerfires were considered too small for anything larger than dog sized critters. Now with improved bullets they are used for deer sized game. Now you mentioned you'd be going after camels and I would think they'd be a bit harder to take, but we don't have any huntable camels in Oklahoma so I don't really know. My vote would be for the 243 Winchester.
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by happyhunter » 28 Dec 2015, 8:56 am

Hey dude for camels and ponies I be looking at something with a bit more punch than all those, including the 308. If your worried about flinching you can train that out.
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by tom604 » 28 Dec 2015, 9:15 am

i have both, 308/223 ,with your flinching i would get a buttpad/shoulder saver for the 308 until you become used to it and shoot lighter projectiles,130 Speers come to mind. the 223 has no recoil to speak off and you can try different ammo to find out what it likes. saying that i want a 243 :oops: the ammo is dearer but the recoil is less than a 308 and you can go the heavier bullets depending on the twist rate. as others have said ,gun fit is very important,my 308 fits me like a glove the 223 less so and is a bit of a pain when your trying to shoot small groups/critters to set yourself properly. and get some dummy bullets,get a mate or some random guy at the range(everyone will help) to load a dummy into the magazine and then see how bad your flinch is, if you know there is a dummy in there you will concentrate on the target more. jmho :thumbsup:
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by snag » 28 Dec 2015, 9:39 am

If you're after light, accurate and low recoil then you can't go past a .223. Makes a very good safe partner for the .308 as their game taking abilities pretty much meet in the middle, whereas the .243 is a heavier calibre (with recoil to match).
The pen may be mightier than the sword, but personally I prefer the .30/30 Winchester.
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by yoshie » 28 Dec 2015, 10:00 am

Id look at a heavier, better fitting stock on the 308 and a good quality recoil pad, and look for some light bullets. It will cost you less than a new rifle. Also better fitting ear plugs make a difference.
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by Oldbloke » 28 Dec 2015, 10:34 am

If you get a 1:9 or 1:8 twist 223 you can load heavy projectiles for use dogs & goats, and perhaps small pigs at a pinch.

Anything over that use the 308.
To help with the 308 recoil, try loading some light loads (say 130s at the starting load ) or cast loads in the 308 until you get used to it.
Also to help with recoil use good hearing protection, good soft recoil pad, and pull in tight to the shoulder and stand up, it is harder on the shoulder on the bench.

But for the camels & horses you will more than likely need 180gr projectiles in the 308. I doubt the 243 will do the job.

See recommendations here: http://ssaa.org.au/hunting/what-you-can-hunt/
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by Wm.Traynor » 28 Dec 2015, 10:55 am

IMO, if you are flinching you need to practice follow through until you can call your shots every time . Start with a 22.
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by MR. WINCHESTER » 28 Dec 2015, 7:45 pm

To the O.P.

If you find struggle with a .308, then planning on stepping up (?) to game such as "pigs, camels, ponies etc"
is not gonna float your boat, I guess ....
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by headspace » 28 Dec 2015, 7:46 pm

If that 308 is knocking you about too much how about you just get rid of it and replace it with a 243. Your flinch is probably going to an instinctive thing and you'll probably find yourself doing it involuntarily whatever you shoot until you learn to control it. Having said that a lighter recoiling rifle is a lot easier to "unflinch" yourself with and there's not much in Australia that can't be taken with a well placed shot with a 243. You can't place your shots well when you have flinch problem, so get rid of the 308 and get a 243 with a decent stock on it. I have a Winchester Featherweight in 243 and it's a great little rifle.
If you are going to the trouble of asking for help I suggest that you don't look forward to shooting that 308, so it's probably best to let it go. Fact is that your shot placement will be a lot better with a rifle you are comfortable with.
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by monbeg » 28 Dec 2015, 7:54 pm

Duck into the local gun shop an get a couple of snapcaps, get used to holding steady and not anticipating the click.
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by sandgroperbill » 28 Dec 2015, 9:09 pm

Sorry, but I'm gonna disagree with JD here, not in theory, but more because of licensing in WA. I would hold onto the .308, at least for now and until we know if its the rifle, the caliber or more flinching in anticipation. It may just be something as simple as not shouldering the rifle just right. It may be solved with the addition of a butt pad. It may be that the rifle doesn't fit the OP, or it may be that the .308 just isn't right for the OP, but given licensing costs and issues in WA, I wouldn't be rushing out to trade in the .308 straight away.

If you have a range nearby, go for a visit. People will generally help to identify if it's your technique. Also, you may be able to try other rifles in various calibers, which could be extremely useful in finding the right way forward
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by demanda » 28 Dec 2015, 11:24 pm

Thanks for your posts everyone. It sounds like a .223 is a great choice based on the rifles I already have and my bad habits. Has anyone got any experience with the Ruger Hawkeye Laminate Compact rifle? 1:9 twist with a short overall length.
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by sandgroperbill » 29 Dec 2015, 12:44 am

My advice is don't pick a rifle, let the rifle pick you.

Go in to all the gunships nearby, and ask to see everything they have in .223 1:8 or 1:9. Shoulder them, work the bolt while they're shouldered, feel how they fit against your cheek and shoulder, feel how they balance. You'll find that they will all feel different, even if only slightly, but you'll pick one up that feels just right, and a lot of the time you'll know that that is your rifle.

As for Rugers, they aren't target rifles, they're good reliable hunting rifles. If that is fine by you, then you'll find that they are good rifles. I own an American, not everybody's piece of cake, but to me its a tool and I'm quite happy with it, though I haven't owned an M77, so can't comment specifically on long term M77 ownership. Just be aware that the M77 uses proprietory rings.
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by Strikey » 29 Dec 2015, 6:41 am

What about the new mini action Howa's, they could be worth having a look at? If you are only shooting thin skinned game such as dogs, cats, goats and such I would stay away from the faster twist rates and heavier projectiles in the .223 unless you are shooting them at extended ranges, you might find that the projectiles will pencil through without imparting all their energy, possibly leaving wounded animals, not a good outcome :thumbsdown:
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 29 Dec 2015, 1:43 pm

sandgroperbill wrote:My advice is don't pick a rifle, let the rifle pick you.


I picture a guy walking into the gunshop.... standing in front of the racks... closing the eyes and placing the index fingers to the sides of the temple.... occasionally opening an eye and peering out to see if a rifle is levitating closer.... :P :P

I know what you mean......

but first things first OP,

FIX the flinch.

THEN think about another rifle, dont think about finding a soft rifle, dont be a girls blouse (no offence to the GBs)
Shoot the 308 and shoot a lot! it is after all a mid-range recoiling rifle... to test your flinch place a dummy round in the mag...mix it in there....

Just try not to anticipate the recoil... 'psychologise' yourself as you pull the trigger. :thumbsup: :unknown:

Once sorted go for a 223Rem, its the plinker of centrefires, but hard enough hitting at the same time (for reasonable sized game)... lots of fun.

Then, sure, go the 243, but you can also load light bullets in the 308....for what its worth.....
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by Title_II » 29 Dec 2015, 1:47 pm

<<Genesis93>> wrote:
sandgroperbill wrote:My advice is don't pick a rifle, let the rifle pick you.


I picture a guy walking into the gunshop.... standing in front of the racks... closing the eyes and placing the index fingers to the sides of the temple.... occasionally opening an eye and peering out to see if a rifle is levitating closer.... :P :P


Use The Fork, Luke. You weren't raised in a barnyard :)
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 29 Dec 2015, 1:53 pm

Learn you will Padawan

:P
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by MR. WINCHESTER » 29 Dec 2015, 5:12 pm

<<Genesis93>> wrote:
sandgroperbill wrote:
Once sorted go for a 223Rem, its the plinker of centrefires.



Them's fightin' ( definitive ) words Buster ....

Had me a plenty good time, plinkin' with the old Hornet.

( .223 just a tad noisy for my sensitive ears, to be a half decent challenger in the plinker galleries )
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by GLS_1956 » 29 Dec 2015, 7:26 pm

[quote="sandgroperbill"]My advice is don't pick a rifle, let the rifle pick you.

Gee Mom, it followed me home. Can I keep it? :D
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by sandgroperbill » 30 Dec 2015, 12:15 am

Ok ok. Point taken, but you know what I mean :)

And I wish a few rifles would follow me home. I'd give them a loving home and it would be a damn sight cheaper
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Re: 223 or 243 -- Your opinion?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 30 Dec 2015, 9:54 am

Granted the Hornet is an 'efficient' little round, its about the midway point between the LR and the Rem 1100fps/2200fps/3300fps.... couple with the inexpensive factory and even cheaper reloads, lack of recoil.... the Rem wins :thumbsup:

..... having said that, there are some nice 22Hornet rifles available :unknown:

on the 243 front....yeah, I see the merits, plus I have a cavernous calibre deficiency between the 22 and 30cal centrefires, will fill it one day with one or more of the 6 or 6.5mm offerings...
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