6.5x55 barrel twist for cast bullets

[Akis]

Hi All,

I've just joined and look forward to sharing my journey... I suspect one that may be a little bumpy I might add.

I am returning to the sport after a long absence, and slowly gathering the "stuff I need" whilst waiting for my licence to come through... then the purchase permit.. boy oh boy what a saga!!... as an aside it is remarkable how much equipment one can buy without a licence.

I intend to purchase a 6.5x55 swede and reload, hopefully using cast projectiles (I'm a tightwad!). And yes I already know it is a b***ch to get accuracy with cast at higher velocities because of the high twist rate.

I am starting with a clean slate and thought of getting around the high twist problem buy buying a butchered M38 (turned down bolt for scope use) and replacing the barrel with a Tobler 1-10" twist. My reasoning is that the 10 twist works well with 308s at 2200+fps, so assume it would work with the swede. As for long bullets etc, I'd like the 150 - 160gr but realise they're problematic with the slower twist, so I'm looking at NOE 134gr, Lyman 140 gr or the Aussie CBE 132gr (all gas check and lots of lube groves hopefully lubed with Hi Tek coating).

My longwinded question is: If I get the slower twist (22" barrel) will it still stabilise jacketed 120gr - 140gr (thinking of the Hornady Amax 120gr and the Speer 120 gr). probably the Speer, its cheaper!!. Because I realise that developing the cast hunting round will take time and I'd like to be able to hunt in the mean time.

I am happy to risk it and possibly through a lot of tweaking get a reasonable cast round (after all it's a hobby I look forward to), say around 2200fps that will do my for the hunting I intend to do - bunnies to pigs at around 150yds or so.

Looking forward to your responses

cheers
Akis

[Seconds]

I am starting with a clean slate and thought of getting around the high twist problem buy buying a butchered M38 (turned down bolt for scope use) and replacing the barrel with a Tobler 1-10" twist. My reasoning is that the 10 twist works well with 308s at 2200+fps, so assume it would work with the swede. As for long bullets etc, I'd like the 150 - 160gr but realise they're problematic with the slower twist

1:10 might work work for the .308 but they're wider diameter (so shorter) bullets in the same weight, so the same isn't going to translate to the 6.5 in the same way.

Even with 140gr I thought the longer bullet in the 6.5x55 dictated a 1:8 twist.

[Wm.Traynor]

I have never cast myself but on http://castboolits.gunloads.com there is a discussion about powder coated bullets. They are said to go much faster without leading than anything else.
Hope it works for you mate.

[Akis]

Hi Seconds and Wm. Traynor,

I have been researching this for some time, and thanks Seconds, pointing out that calibre too needs to be accounted for. thanks Wm. Traynor, Castboolits has sucked up a lot of my time. I've got plenty of time waiting for the paper war to end so I can get my licence, also found a great thread on Gunboards. So far all say the same thing... easy to 1500fps, after that, may the lord take pity on your sanity. All good, I am happier buying a stock rifle... actually thinking of the Weatherby Vanguard2, they guarantee moa out of the box and at a very reasonable price. I also managed to score some Lapua brass and 500 Amax 120gr at a good price. recovered some of my old reloading gear and purchased the rest.... not allowed to play with primers or powder until I'm licenced. ready to go... waiting... waiting

I will go for cast as well, this time it'll be the biggest chunk of lead I can throw... NOE 163gr, at 1500fps I'm sure it'll make an impression and shoot flat enough for 100yds or so.

Oh can I ask, is there an issue shooting lead and jacketed to the barrel... other than a good scrub. I will be segregating the brass for sure.

Thanks guy's I appreciate the help, albeit that there is no magic bullet.... bummer thought I had it

cheers
Akis

[Wm.Traynor]

"........an issue shooting lead and jacketed............".
I have seen on Marlin Owners where they advise a very thorough cleaning changing from one to the other and back again. YMMV

[Chronos]

if the rifle shoots 140gr jacketed bullets it will surely shoot 140gr cast bullets. cast are always shorter for weight than cast so are easier to stabilize. It's the bullet length that requires a certain twist rate to stabilize rather than weight itself

Chronos

[No1Mk3]

G'day Akis,
The general consensus among Swede shooters is that heavier bullets require faster twists, ie: up to 147g go 1:8, and lighter pills need slower twists, ie: 120g go 1:10. Cast or jacketed doesn't enter in to it, especially if your coating, other than leading at velocity. As others stated, very good cleaning regimen when changing, though I never heard of a problem with coated, or even moly bullets. Having said that, the Swede is a forgiving rifle and I have seen good accuracy from 105g to 150g out of the military 1:7.9 barrel. If you haven't already ordered your barrel, consider 1:9 for widest projie selection, Cheers.

[Akis]

Hi Wm. Traynor, Chronos and No1Mk3,

Wm, Traynor, thought that would be the case, I'm thinking of using Hi Tek coating and gas checks to try and eliminate lead contacting the rifling. So i'm hoping that it won't be a huge job changing over... then again, don't know what residue the Hi Tek will leave. I think it contains HBN which is very much like Moly, so should leave me with a slick clean barrel.. hmmm bet I end up with lead up to my elbows (bloody sod's law)

Chronos, didn't make that association... duh!! feeling a bit dumb. From what I've researched its the fast twist that makes accuracy go south with the swede.at speed. I suppose the only way to really know is to have a go. If all else fails then then back off to 1500fps, softer, coated gc bullets and still a goer at shorter ranges

No1Mk3. No I haven't bought anything yet, was actually contemplating buying a Weatherby/ Howa, since with a modern action i'll be able to get the most out of the 120 Amaxs I've got, should be pretty deadly and flat shooting I think they're 1-8". My interest in cast is so I can get in plenty of range time economically, from research so far cast is gonna be a very steep learning curve with plenty of bumps. don't want to miss out an opportunity to hunt because my loads spray patterns and from Cast Boolits and Gunboard, 3 - 4 even 6 moa is what i'll get at speed... no chance of shooting anything but paper.

I think that my next question will be powders... thinking of ADI 2208, according to them I get the highest velocity at lowest pressure... figure that's got to be a good thing.

5 weeks before I get my licence (I hope)... and another 28 days before I can take my gun home...

Anyway thanks guys do appreciate the help

cheers and again thanks
Akis

[No1Mk3]

G'day Akis,
2208 should be Ok, the Swede has a penchant for the slower powders. I used to load 140g Scenar @ 35.5g of 2206H for 2350fps with fair results (M96), but when I went to the common (among our clubs Swede shooters) load of 43.0g 2209, results improved greatly. Some use 2213SC with good results also. Look forward to hearing your results, mid April/early May? Cheers.

[Wm.Traynor]

Hi Akis
re "Hi Tek coating"
Is that from www.hrbc.com.au ?

[Akis]

Hi Wm. Traynor
Probably, I actually found it for sale in the US, it did however say that it has been developed here and used for 20yrs.. problem is I'm yet to track down who sells it here.

One thing about me i'm relentless, i'll find out who makes it, there will be a hint somewhere on the net

A few weeks back I contacted hrbc to purchase some cast 6.5, but they've changed hands and won't be back in business till late April according to the guy I spoke to.

Also re Hi Tek, apparently they also have it in powder form, resin and catalyst mixed together, and when you add acetone the chemical process begins. lot simpler

cheers mate
Akis

[Akis]

bloody hell, I've been lookin for a while and bingo! according to Chey Cast Bullets in the US, it is

J&M Specialised Products
230 Putta Rd
Upper Lansdowne
NSW 2430
02 6556 9004

[Wm.Traynor]

Thanks Akis I'll have a stickybeak at them.

[<<Genesis93>>]

I dont have a great deal to say about the swede other than they use by standard a 220mm twist barrel, and although the bulk of the other 6.5mm chamberings seem to use a 200mm, while a few go slower at up to 10inch.... I would say that provided you use the similar mass and form bullets then accuracy should be spot on, again, considering the reputation of the swede with this twist rate... you change the twist, then there are various methods, formulae to work out optimal twist/bullet combos

The part of your post that did catch my attention was this;

as an aside it is remarkable how much equipment one can buy without a licence.

No disrespect, but that is a stupid statement to make.
Do you expect reloading equipment to be licensed and regulated? perhaps dies should be controlled and lumps of inert lead as well?? Crime gangs all over are manufacturing ammo...... oh hang on you need a licence for the main constituent - propellant, as in the explosive (though technically not really an explosive)..

So your comment, whether you realise or not, is 'ammo' for the tards. Who regularly, along with the popo, trawl these pages for interesting tidbits.

Dont quote my quote please, I'll be removing the tidbit shortly.

Oh, and





s for the standat

[Akis]

Hi <<Genesis93>>,
Firstly thank you for the welcome.
Indeed I am beginning to understand the relationship between diameter (calibre), projectile length, weight and twist. Quite complex and no doubt in time I will get my head around it. Predominantly due to the help I receive on this and one other forums. I am touched by the generosity that many have shown me.
I appreciate your angst, albeit somewhat misdirected in my opinion. Firstly let me reassure you I am nobody’s fool, of course there are disingenuous individuals the trawl forums like these looking for opportunities to profit their agendas, be it for votes, news sales or to pressure legislators to legislate firearms out of existence… simply, they are here because we are here.
I am not new to the sport (my father taught me to hunt), I am returning after quite a long absence, and what I found on my return is illogical legislation with built-in stumbling blocks that are obviously designed to discourage and dismay. I applied for a licence application form (what???) in December, I received it in late Jan and immediately returned it in early Feb, they acknowledged receiving it this month (March) and informed me that it will take a further 6 – 8 weeks for background checks, which by the way in this oh so digital age would take fractions of a second. Then to purchase a firearm I need another form, including a 28 day cooling off period I assume. I do support ensuring the registration and security of firearms, I feel it is one component of protecting society, but this is beyond logical explanation.
In the meantime, I am unable to touch a firearm in a gunshop, even with the bolt removed (beyond stupid me thinks). This happened in two gunshops. As you know a rifle has to feel like it fits, so waiting for a licence, from my experience so far, probably late April and beyond!
As for my comment, considering what I’d been exposed to already, I was pleasantly surprised that our legislators had not totally lost the plot. I muse at the thought of them banning copper and lead!! Ridiculous but given the state of affairs I have been confronted with so far, amusingly not beyond the realm of possibility.
So to the core of all this, the safety and protection of society. I ask, how will persecuting firearm enthusiasts by enacting draconian laws, stop the drive by shootings and other repugnant antisocial behaviour. The only way to do this is to target the people perpetrating these acts, but this takes money and effort, so rather than bolstering the police force, giving them the man power and resources to hunt these people down, to make these low lifes feel that if they stick their head above the radar they will be caught. The way to stop criminals is to focus on criminals and make their lifestyle under constant threat, not us.
Sadly the simpler and cheaper option is to make extinct the ownership of firearms… then my friend only the crims will have them!! All the laws imaginable will never affect this fact. Lawbreakers do not care about the law they look for opportunity to circumvent it, they do however consider the consequences of capture.
What we, as law abiding citizens should be doing is using our democratic rights and forcing our legislators and police to keep their eye on the ball. Which is catching criminals and having strong enough legislation to make them think twice before they consider any wrong doing. We should never be afraid to vocalise our thinking, we should appreciate that the “anti-gun lobby” too have a right to their beliefs. So no problem, they’ll never own a rifle, suits me. A friend of mine is a strict vegan, terrific, so long as I am not forced to comply with her beliefs, happy days. That is what the anti-gun lobbyists are trying to do to us and they use unreasonable examples to justify their actions. What I fear is inaction by us that will be our downfall. I worked in a heavily legislated industry for 26 years and that was its downfall. Allowing the ridiculous to be accepted as truth.
As for not quoting your quote, I have no idea what that means. If it meant that I have no right of reply…wrong.
Apologies for the sooo long winded reply, I felt it imperative that we all stop being afraid of those that oppose us and begin insisting on verifiable, justifiable and valid proof for their arguments.
These are my beliefs and are not in any way intended to denigrate of offend. They are the opinions of an Australian that has been bewildered at the degree that honest people have been unjustly treated.
Cheers
Akis

[cuvy]

If you're planning on shooting a lot of cast bullets, why not go to a 30 cal? Much easier to find molds or cast bullets, and if you are going to hunt with cast bullets, you'll get much heavier projectiles. 230gr 30 cal is easy to get, if i recall correctly, whereas 140 grain is what you'll most likely end up with in 6.5. there is a 170ish grain lee mold apparently (the Lee "cruise missile" - discontinued), but you will definitely need a 1 in 7.8" miliary barrel to fire it.

As for powder, consider AR2206H - this is exactly the same as H4895, which you can safely download to 60% maximum load without any sort of wadding (http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Redu ... 0Loads.pdf). 60% of a standard 140gr load for the swede is going to put you somewhere between 1600-1800fps, which is not bad for cast. I'd imagine there would be similar loads in .308 which would be a lot more effective given the extra bullet weight.

[Akis]

Hi Cuvy,

I know I've picked a hard calibre for cast. Picked it more for nostalgic reasons (thinking with heart not head). You're dead right for sure the 308 is by far the better option. Still not too sure what to do regarding cast. Principally was looking for cheap projectiles/ possible hobby. I think I'll stick with the cheap Amax 120gr I managed to score, and later look at calibres more suited to lead (lots of head scratching!). At the lower velocities that the swede is accurate at (apparently around 1500fps), I have to say I'm not too comfortable shooting at pigs at much over 50yds, whereas with jackets a different story, they'll out shoot my capabilities.

NOE make a 163gr mold, that's the heaviest I've found to date, and could be a contender

Thanks for the link, funny I'd recently contacted ADI about that but you beat them with the info...thought that I could use it for both. But probably also get 2208 as well, ADI site show it produces the highest vel at lowest pressure, which has got to be of some significance.

Thanks for the info mate
cheers
Akis

[cuvy]

Don't get me wrong, I quite like 6.5x55 - it's the only centrefire cal I have and seems to do the job pretty well (but I haven't been shooting long). With AR2206H you can load from an 85gr projectile at 3370 fps to a 140gr projectile at 2493 fps, and even up to 160gr with other powders, which makes it a pretty flexible cartridge.

I've started shooting cast loads in it, using hawkesbury river blackhawks (powder coated, rated up to about 1800fps) and so far it has been a lot of fun. 7gr of trail boss with the 140gr projectile gives a nice low recoil, subsonic (995fps) easy to shoot load at about 20c a shot. The next thing I'm going to try is a hawkesbury river copper hawk (rated to 2200fps, no need for a gas check) load using AR2206H, somewhere around the 2100fps mark.

The big issue with 6.5 for cast is that it's a lot harder to come by. Hawkesbury river is as far as i can tell the only company that sells 6.5mm cast projectiles, and they've just changed ownership and it isn't clear if they are going to continue to make 6.5mm projectiles. 30cal and pistol cals on the other hand there seem to be 3 or 4 different australian companies to choose from. If you're into doing your own casting (personally I'm not, unless i'm unable to buy pre-cast and I have no other options), you can get molds, but they're a lot less common and more expensive. Sizing, lubing and gas check dies are also similarly hard to get and more expensive.

If I was starting out again, I would get a 308 instead of the 6.5x55, as it would be much easier to do cast with, while still performing just as well for full power jacketed loads. When my supply of hawkesbury river projectiles runs out and I'm not able to get any more, I'll probably just use the swedes for full power jacketed loads, and buy a 308 or 30-06 just for cast loads.

[Akis]

Hi Cuvy,

I recently rang Hawksbury and got the same story, The dies are RS and they're not sure if they'll replace them. So probably have to cast and coat them myself. Oh well yet another adventure. Will definitely buy the swede, and with the 120gr Amax, it will shoot flat enough out to 200 - 250 yds and that is plenty for me. Did have a thought though, had a look at the Baikal break open single shot in 308. no too pricey I've seen second hand around, or maybe even a sporterised (chopped) Mauser. that way I avoid stuffing around with molten lead. Still head scratching!!

I found copper plated 308 150gr on Clever's website, quite cheap $219/1000, still heaps cheaper than jacketed. I have no idea if they're any good, but do look very uniform and smooth, almost a jacketed bullet and could be a higher speed option. The Berry site recommends less than 2000fps, which will be a tad less than 30 30 so out to 100 - 150 plenty good enough as long as they're accurate.

By the way what sort of accuracy do you get with the cast bullets? are they even worth considering even at low velocities for hunting, or ok for shooting paper.

Anyway, I'm still 3-4 weeks away from getting my bloody licence, then the purchase application. wow what a pain this is. and when I do, first thing will be to work up a nice accurate load for the Amax, that way I'll be ready if I get the chance to go hunting, and get in some practice as well, it's been a long time since I've shot a rifle. Got to learn all over again.

cheers mate and thanks for the info
Akis

[cuvy]

Glad I can be of help. My license took about 5 months - absolute pain in the arse.

I know someone who has a single shot baikal in 7.62x39 and it is a nice and fun little rifle to shoot. If you're just planning on shooting cast then 7.62x39 might be slightly better as there's less case volume, making 'reduced' loads a bit safer with slower burning powders. Bear in mind though that they have a slightly larger bore - I think .311 instead of .308 for other 30 cal cartridges, so you need to make sure you get the slightly larger projectiles.

I really haven't been shooting cast loads (or shooting in general) very long, so bear that in mind. The subsonic 6.5 load (140gr hawkesbury river, 7gr trailboss) seemed to group around 1" at 50m. I haven't played around with seating depth or fine tuning the powder charge, and this was my poor shooting prone off a backpack. I expect I will be able to get that down to maybe 0.5". The guy who helped me do this has plenty of cast bullet loads (in a variety of ex-mil calibres) that do better than that though. He uses higher power loads (1800+ fps gas checked) out to around 130m for hunting deer (chittal) and pigs with good results.

If you are still going to get a 6.5x55 rifle, I reckon have a look at sporterised ex-mil rifles. They are fantastic value. i just picked up one for $300 posted interstate, and there are plenty for around at the moment for between $300 and $450 that are sporterised, with cut down orig stock, aftermarket wood, synthetic or laminate, receiver drilled and tapped, maybe even a basic 4x scope. You may need to replace the safety with a low profile one to clear the scope (there's a timney one for about $75), or just carry un-cocked until you're ready to fire. A sporterised M38 with a standard length barrel is about the same length, and only a bit heavier than a Ruger M77 MkII in 270, for less than half the price! Overall I think they are exceptional value. Something to consider anyway.

[Akis]

Hi cuvy,

Great idea, the 7.62x39 would use a lot less powder had a quick look at ADI loading data and max load with the 150gr is about 2100 fps using 2206H, so shouldn't be too hard to develop a load with cast. thanks mate, more to scratch my head over!!! joking it is a top idea and now to hunt down projectiles (would still like to buy not cast.

Ok so your're getting minute of bunny... cool, now if Hawksbury get back into production we're laughing!

Yes have thought of sporterised swedes, certainly will be able to afford both and keep within budget as well. I suppose it is a matter of cruising the net till I am able to actually buy one. Bit worried about barrel condition, i suppose its a case of look carefully. saw one for $295, at least i'd have stock and action

5 months!!! not happy Janet. I really don't get it, crims don't buy guns they smuggle them in or steal them and don't give two hoots about the law. I worked in a highly regulated industry before retiring and although there was some justification to regulate it, there was some quite stupid reasoning behind the decisions made by legislators. Fact is the legislators are motivated by votes and keeping in power. All the crap about protecting us is just that crap

cheers mate
Akis

[Akis]

Hi bentaz

wow i didn't realise that they were available from gunshops... great stuff will get some too

thanks mate for the heads up!

cheers
Akis

[cuvy]

Bentaz - try 7gr of trailboss for a subsonic load. Also note that when i tried around 12 gr (which happens to be what you get with the scoop included in the lee loader) i got around 1500fps, but the projectile was keyholing.

[cuvy]

Hi Akis,

The barrels on ex-mil swedes seem to be generally fairly good - they didn't see active service so they seem to have been well looked after. Also, they are made using what is essentially stainless steel, which also helps their condition. I still think 30cal is better for cast, but 6.5 swede and the ex-mil swedish mausers are great guns.

Bentaz - looks like you got the last of them. Called them up the other day and they didn't have any left.

[Akis]

Hi cuvy,

Yes I've been looking at them too, researched the M96/38 and everything I've read describes then as well built and accurate, apparently the swedes were very particular about the steel in their guns, even shipped it to Mauser to build the first production run. I suppose its pot luck when buying one though. After all 96s are usually quite old (120yrs) and 38s too would be nudging 75+ yrs.

I have been thinking quite a bit about 30cal, specifically the 30 30, there is a sh**tload of data on cast for it. The more i think about it the more attractive the 30cal becomes. I think a lever action is a goer, I'll just keep looking and getting an idea of prices. When the bloody licence finally arrives that is!!

I wonder if the Berry's copper plated bullets are ok. I see they don't have a cannelure so I suppose I need to find out if they can be crimped. I'll ask the question once I'm ready to start loading.

I was only going to buy a swede and a 22lr, but if I buy a sporterised ex military and a 2nd hand 22, I should be able to talk the finance dept into stretching it to a third rifle.

I called Qld Gun Exch and missed out too... If I go for the 30 30 that will be a mute point anyway.

Cheers Mate
Akis

[Wm.Traynor]

Akis,
FWIW, my Lee 30/30 die is supposed to crimp on jacketed bullets even if they don't have a cannelure.

[cuvy]

Here's a thought ti provide even more confusion

how about a 357 mag or 44mag lever gun? plenty of cast for them!

[Akis]

Hi Wm Traynor, cuvy and bentaz,

Wm Traynor, i suppose the copper plated bullets wouldn't be too different, other than half the price! Worried i'd damage the plating and end up with lead in the barrel. but thinking about it, even with a cannelure i'd still be cutting into the coating.

cuvy and bentaz, did think about the pistol calibres, really need to look at the ballistics though. I suppose that using cast means that I'll be limited to less than 2000fps, probably closer to 1800, from my research. So looking at the ADI reloading data on 357 or the 44 rem mag, it shows velocities of 1700 - 1900 with jacketed but only 1200 or so with cast. Certainly if I can use the slower powders with cast and push then a bit quicker then they'd do for around 100 yds and with the size of lead the 44 throws will have plenty of grunt.

By the way, looking in the latest sporting shooter mag, there is a very complimentary article on the Bergara B14 Sporter, and apparently sub $1000 and available in 6.5x55... i've got time to wait and see if the gun shops run and introductory specials. googled them and apparently they make quality barrels. hopefully there'll be a few more reviews. Might do a bit more googling see what comes up. Funds have improved somewhat, apparently the finance dept does have a heart... or she wants something!!

seems i've got plenty of time ... still waiting for this bloody licence!

cheers guys, thanks so much for the info really appreciate it

Akis