Pattern 14 in 303 Epps

[Heckler303]

Here's a rifle I'm sure Varmtr will go absolutely nuts over, a P14 excellently converted to a hunting rifle and reamed out for the 303 Epps cartridge. Complete with a rubber patpad, a really weird but fantastic scope, the original stock chequered and modified with a larger semi pistol grip and comb, the barrel shortened by 2 inches + re-crowned and a speed-lock firing pin installed. Eventually I'll get to working on the trigger as it currently has a bit of creep in it. Lighter than the full P14, but still could use some work on.












The rubber butt-pad has been sanded back to fit the stock better since the photos were taken, alongside a bolt which now looks like it's been chromed over (the metal in these things is bloody fantastic).

At some point the stock is going to be taken off and properly finished, because there's still plenty of tell-tale lines where its been modified and there are little scrapes and dents that really bug me when I pick it up and look at it.

Now before I finish this post, some of you might be thinking "What the hell is a 303 Epps?"

Well, here's a fire-formed case:



It's a 303 case that has very little tapering, a much shorter neck + better case efficiency. In an nutshell, it blows the 308 win out of the water and gives the 30-06 a run for its money. In the p14 action, it's very possible to jack it up and produce a very powerful load, but I don't really feel like breaking my shoulder anytime soon . Range tests while benchresting gave us a ragged hole, or nearing a 0.4 MOA group. The fact this thing has its original barrel and almost outshoots my target rifle (an M17 action) is crazy. This rifle is fantastic and I never want to let it go.

[No1Mk3]

Neither should you let it go, that is some lovely stock work fitting the pistol grip and Monte Carlo top. A well fitted scope mount also. This is a wonderful example of an old "war horse" converted to a hunting rifle that easily compares to the Parker Hale No1Mk3 conversions. I would be very happy to own a rifle like that, thanks for showing us, Cheers.

[COLLECTOR 1]

Now that's brought back some memories......

I can tell you that this rifle was built by a gunsmith in the 50"s and 60's here in Australia by the name of Jack Hodgstach, ( I think that's how he spelt his surname). He operated in a workshop at the rear of his residence in Leichardt here in Sydney. I remember as a kid going down there with my old man and picking up rifles that Jack had worked on for him (my dad was a firearms dealer in his day)

The giveaway is the mounts, and how they are held on, along with the stock and the inletting, Jack was the only smithy around at the time who did work like that, the man was a legend in his time, and built all sorts of rifles. I still have a 96 Mauser in 303/25 that was one of his creations, and sure enough the mounts and stock work are the same. I can also tell you that he did work for Mick Smiths building rifles after the war as there was nothing around in sporting guns.

He converted just about anything P14's, M17's, 96 and 98 Mausers, and Lee Enfield's, from military calibres ( as the ordinary folk weren't allowed them) to sporting calibres, including the 303 Epps. See its not a 303 British dear Mr police officer its a 303 Epps.

I think from memory he passed away in the late 70's and was an old man by then................

That rifle is a keeper just for the Australian history attached to it, trust me....

Hope al that helps, try Google if you want but as I said im not 100% sure of the surname spelling.

[GLS_1956]

Nice rifle, it's so nice to see the work of a true gunsmith/riflesmith. The "ear" removal and fitting of the scope mounts show an attention to detail that is not always seen today. This is shown most clearly in the skillful stock work. I can see, by the change in color and grain where the man added the cheek piece but the addition of wood for the pistol grip is to my eyes indistinguishable. Truly the work of a smith that knows his job. For those reasons alone I thank you for sharing.

I found the information you shared on the 303 Epps cartridge to be interesting. Here in the USA we've never had any problem with having guns chambered in military cartridges, heck if the US military adopts it you can be sure it'll find it's way onto the civilian market in less time than a new cartridge developed by a gun or ammo maker.

In closing I have but one question. Is the P-14 action British or American made?

[No1Mk3]

G'day GLS_1956,
Apart from a very few early examples made by Vickers, all Pattern 14 rifles were made at one of the three US factories until the US entered the fray in 1917, at which time they became M17, Cheers.
PS: The military caliber restriction was only applied in the State of New South Wales, the rest of us had no problem.

[Lyam]

Now before I finish this post, some of you might be thinking "What the hell is a 303 Epps?"

Yes I was lol

[COLLECTOR 1]

I couldn't help myself and showed my father, who is in his very late 80's and failing health a picture of this rifle via my IPad,,,,, he took one look at it and said its one of Jack's rifles....he reckons Jack loved the P14/M17's because they were so much stronger and easy to get for the conversations.

For what its worth both Timmney and Drayton Triaster make drop in sporting triggers for these old work horses. I've got a M17 in 308 with the Drayton set up, it drops straight in, and works a treat.

COLLECTOR 1

[Heckler303]

I couldn't help myself and showed my father, who is in his very late 80's and failing health a picture of this rifle via my IPad,,,,, he took one look at it and said its one of Jack's rifles....he reckons Jack loved the P14/M17's because they were so much stronger and easy to get for the conversations.

For what its worth both Timmney and Drayton Triaster make drop in sporting triggers for these old work horses. I've got a M17 in 308 with the Drayton set up, it drops straight in, and works a treat.

COLLECTOR 1

...wow. I'm not entirely sure what you meant by 'Jack's rifles' but that made me feel really warm on the inside. I wish your father good health in his old age.

I've considered dropping in a Timmney trigger at a set 2kg pull weight like on my M17 Target rifle. Would be absolutely smashing.

[Heckler303]

You're getting a nice collection of these aussie ol' girls.
Would be nice to see em all together.

Well, this P14 was Canadian, but the conversions have all been done here as far as I know. Just like how my 303-25 is actually made at Enfield, England but all the work was done here to convert to the cartridge. The 303 Lithgow sporter is all Australian. Amazingly enough it's bore may be worn but it still shoots fairly fine, good enough for deer work. It kicks like an absolute mule though.

[Varmtr]

Very nice P14 Heckler the gunsmith who did this did a bloody good job.
I spoke to Dave Manson ( Manson Reamers ) about the Epps cartridges, he was the same opinion as me a cartridge before it's time. Now we have more variety of powders and components would see these wildcats get up and go, especially build on a P14 or a converted M17 action.
Hopefully my 6.5 Epps reamer will be here soon. My Epps reamer specs are 0.004 body taper, 35 degree shoulder, neck length is 0.264" so roughly the shoulder is moved forward around 0.125" compared to original 303 Brit round.
Heckler with the speed lock you have in yours another trick that will improve it slightly, is file or mill the flats on the firing pin down to just shy of the stop. Helps lightening the firing pin slightly. Another thing to check with the speed lock is the cocking piece were it engages the bolt's cocking cam. When the cocking piece is in the fired position you should have a very slight gap between it and bottom of the bolt cocking cam. If it touches there is a chance eventually you'll break the cocking piece as this is stopping the firing pin travelling it's full distance were the firing pin stop should be stopping it. If you have to adjust also check the firing pin protrusion as well make sure it's not to much, I think it should be around 0.055" for memory.
Depending on what speed lock you have and what trigger you are going to put in it you may need to play around with the back lash adjustment, sometimes you have to and some you don't. I have a Timney ready for mine with a Dayton speed lock installed.

The scope looks like a early Kahles or Ziess steel tube.

[Heckler303]

Now that's brought back some memories......

I can tell you that this rifle was built by a gunsmith in the 50"s and 60's here in Australia by the name of Jack Hodgstach, ( I think that's how he spelt his surname). He operated in a workshop at the rear of his residence in Leichardt here in Sydney. I remember as a kid going down there with my old man and picking up rifles that Jack had worked on for him (my dad was a firearms dealer in his day)

The giveaway is the mounts, and how they are held on, along with the stock and the inletting, Jack was the only smithy around at the time who did work like that, the man was a legend in his time, and built all sorts of rifles. I still have a 96 Mauser in 303/25 that was one of his creations, and sure enough the mounts and stock work are the same. I can also tell you that he did work for Mick Smiths building rifles after the war as there was nothing around in sporting guns.

He converted just about anything P14's, M17's, 96 and 98 Mausers, and Lee Enfield's, from military calibres ( as the ordinary folk weren't allowed them) to sporting calibres, including the 303 Epps. See its not a 303 British dear Mr police officer its a 303 Epps.

I think from memory he passed away in the late 70's and was an old man by then................

That rifle is a keeper just for the Australian history attached to it, trust me....

Hope al that helps, try Google if you want but as I said im not 100% sure of the surname spelling.

How did I scroll past this post without even noticing this?

That's amazing to hear so much history about it and find out who did the work on this rifle. That man must have been of extraordinary talent, because the work put on it outstounds both me and the old man. To find out that info really changes my view of this rifle. Wow. I almost don't want to refinish it now.

[Member-Deleted]

Nice rifle, it's so nice to see the work of a true gunsmith/riflesmith. The "ear" removal and fitting of the scope mounts show an attention to detail that is not always seen today. This is shown most clearly in the skillful stock work. I can see, by the change in color and grain where the man added the cheek piece but the addition of wood for the pistol grip is to my eyes indistinguishable. Truly the work of a smith that knows his job. For those reasons alone I thank you for sharing.

I found the information you shared on the 303 Epps cartridge to be interesting. Here in the USA we've never had any problem with having guns chambered in military cartridges, heck if the US military adopts it you can be sure it'll find it's way onto the civilian market in less time than a new cartridge developed by a gun or ammo maker.

In closing I have but one question. Is the P-14 action British or American made?

After closer examination, the stock work is about the best I've seen on a military conversion. There are so many butchered examples around, and so few decent jobs. There is a fair bit of work in sporterising the P14/M17 compared to a Mauser 98 and such, but the results are well worth it, particularly for bigger magnum conversions or serious target work. I had a 458 win mag built on a P14 in the early eighties, plus a 300 win mag on an M17, and they both shot very well. The 303 Epps would have been as about as powerful as you would have needed back when this rifle was customised, and it would be really interesting to know what the original owner had intended to use it for...Buffalo gun perhaps...? Either way, its a brilliant piece of Australian history

[COLLECTOR 1]

True about the Aussie Wild Cat cartridges, way way before their time.........with the advent of more modern propellants and projectiles they really can come into a class of their own...

For example, take 303.25, go and build one today on a strong P14/M17 action with good projectiles, and powder...and use decent brass to form the cases... bet your flat out telling the difference between it and a 25 06.............

The Epps is a classic example, when loaded correctly with todays modern components it will give a 308 win a run for its money any day of the week.

And to think the Aussie Gunsmiths were building this stuff in the 50's and 60's.....amazing..

Collector 1

[AusC]

You're getting a nice collection of these aussie ol' girls.
Would be nice to see em all together.

Group photo

[Varmtr]

True about the Aussie Wild Cat cartridges, way way before their time.........with the advent of more modern propellants and projectiles they really can come into a class of their own...

For example, take 303.25, go and build one today on a strong P14/M17 action with good projectiles, and powder...and use decent brass to form the cases... bet your flat out telling the difference between it and a 25 06.............

The Epps is a classic example, when loaded correctly with todays modern components it will give a 308 win a run for its money any day of the week.

And to think the Aussie Gunsmiths were building this stuff in the 50's and 60's.....amazing..

Collector 1

It's not often you see Epps cartridges here besides Heckler's and mine ( 6.5 Epps ), the only other I know of is a 25 Epps. It was built on a converted M17 by Shane Clancy quite a few years back for a author of a shooting mag. From reading his article it was pushing nearly 257 Wthy Mag speeds not to shabby.

[COLLECTOR 1]

Oh look the Epps concept was way way before its time. The biggest thing all these wildcats had going against them was that people were trying real hard to make the old No 1 Mk 111 Lee Enfield's handle all these weird and wonderful inventions, and striking all sorts of dangerous problems.

If the masses had stuck with the P14/M17 actions who knows what would be around today. I remember as a kid a guy who built a 303/375, on a No 1 Mk 111 action, and stoked it pretty hard, it and he eventually gave up after shot number 10.........but what a cannon. and it was downright dangerous........

A .25 Epps would be interesting, love the quarter bore....how do you find the 6.5 Epps ..?????....what bullet weight do you run in it ?????

Collector 1

[Seconds]

303-375 sounds like it would be an interesting afternoon

[Varmtr]

Oh look the Epps concept was way way before its time. The biggest thing all these wildcats had going against them was that people were trying real hard to make the old No 1 Mk 111 Lee Enfield's handle all these weird and wonderful inventions, and striking all sorts of dangerous problems.

If the masses had stuck with the P14/M17 actions who knows what would be around today. I remember as a kid a guy who built a 303/375, on a No 1 Mk 111 action, and stoked it pretty hard, it and he eventually gave up after shot number 10.........but what a cannon. and it was downright dangerous........

A .25 Epps would be interesting, love the quarter bore....how do you find the 6.5 Epps ..?????....what bullet weight do you run in it ?????

Collector 1

G'Day Collector
I'm still in the building phase but will be running around the 130-140gr hence barrel is a 1:8, just waiting on my reamer to arrive. Why 6.5 well just because I suppose.
Cheers

[GLS_1956]

I remember talking to a Canadian who's father had a No4mk1 rebored to a 35/303 or 303-35 as you might put it, after the 303 bore got shot out. But I don't think he mentioned trying to increase the performance, just keep the rifle in service.

[Bark]

Why 6.5 well just because I suppose.

Best reason for lots of stuff

[COLLECTOR 1]

Id be very interested in seeing the finished product of the 6.5 Epps.............by all accounts it should be a versatile calibre for Aussie conditions and game........

There is just something about the odd ball cartridges and calibres that intrigues me...lol ,,,,the You build it, load it, shoot it thing is always good for the soul

COLLECTOR 1

[Varmtr]

Id be very interested in seeing the finished product of the 6.5 Epps.............by all accounts it should be a versatile calibre for Aussie conditions and game........

There is just something about the odd ball cartridges and calibres that intrigues me...lol ,,,,the You build it, load it, shoot it thing is always good for the soul

COLLECTOR 1

Yeh I'm looking forward to getting it finished. Final decision is to either get CH4D in the states to make the dies to suit my reamer specs, or just use the reamer to make the dies here. Will be doing a bushing neck sizer, and a body die for the shoulder bump back also bullet seater.
Looking at giving the LRP matches a crack with it and see how it goes.

[COLLECTOR 1]

Id be using the reamer here .that way there will be no stuff ups......and you know its going to match the chambering exactly.

COLLECTOR 1

[Xerox]

Best reason for lots of stuff

Why the heeeeell not

[Member-Deleted]

Tried some cast loads in her lately, and it shoots just as well with them as with jacketed projectiles. I'm using 180 gn round nose( no gas check), with just 2 gns of Trail boss for short range target practice, and shooting off hand, at 15 to 25 metres, I'm getting 9's and 10's on the paper. Bench rest produced another ragged hole. Maybe it's just a one off where everything came together, but this one amazing old rifle. Considering I got about 80 kg of wheel weights from a local tyre place ( for a six pack!), it's cheaper than a .22 to run.
All I've done is clean her up and float the barrel, as well as add a set of sling swivels, but nothing serious. I'm looking at fitting a target trigger to her in August, and am still tossing up about the cock on closing mod, but it shoots so well I'm reluctant to do any thing else. I wonder if my M17 actioned 303-25 will shoot as well........

[COLLECTOR 1]

303/25 on an M17 action shoot like stink....and strong as....don't worry about the cock on closing mod...you really don't gain anything.

Take it out and just use it

Collector 1