Buying a .223

[bigfellascott]

Hi everyone,

First time here.

I'm looking at buying a .223. I'm looking at a budget of around $1500 for rifle and scope. Probably wouldn't be shooting anything over 60grn

Just wondering, given my budget, what your thoughts would be on best rifle and scope combination?

Your thoughts would be really appreciated.

Cheers

Macca

Have a look at the Howa Mini Actions too - light and compact so good to carry around the hills etc and can shoot a few targets for fun if that's ya thing.

[David Brown]

Ruger American is about the best bang for buck I can find. Get a good scope, my preference is Leopold purely based on warranty.

I fitted the new VX3i in 3.5-10 x 40 on my wife Tikka T3 Lite and it is awesome. I have for budget friendly purposes a Ruger American in 223 with a VX2 3-9x40 and that is the perfect blend of accurate rifle, great scope and not too much invested.Probably around $1300 or so.

Then it is loads......Siera Bulk pack Roo projectiles are the go. Great killers and cheap.

[NukeBOMB88]

Hi everyone,

First time here.

I'm looking at buying a .223. I'm looking at a budget of around $1500 for rifle and scope. Probably wouldn't be shooting anything over 60grn

Just wondering, given my budget, what your thoughts would be on best rifle and scope combination?

Your thoughts would be really appreciated.

Cheers

Macca

Have a look at the Howa Mini Actions too - light and compact so good to carry around the hills etc and can shoot a few targets for fun if that's ya thing.

I'll second this. The mini actions are pretty sweet. I'm saving up for a mini action in 6.5grendle for target shooting now

[bigtone]

I would recommend you have a look at the moss erg mvp varmint. It's cheap so you can treat it poorly without crying, has a 23" barrel and shoots like a laser beam with pretty much any ammo, has a pic rail standard, and best of all takes AR magazines which are double stack so you won't have bleeding fingers after a couple of thousand rounds. The action is just downright terrible but heaps of oil helps and the other upsides more than outweigh the horrible action. It is actually chambered in 5.56 nato so you can use that or 223 ammo. Put a redfield scope and quick detach mounts on it and you are still under $1500.

[bigfellascott]

I would recommend you have a look at the moss erg mvp varmint. It's cheap so you can treat it poorly without crying, has a 23" barrel and shoots like a laser beam with pretty much any ammo, has a pic rail standard, and best of all takes AR magazines which are double stack so you won't have bleeding fingers after a couple of thousand rounds. The action is just downright terrible but heaps of oil helps and the other upsides more than outweigh the horrible action. It is actually chambered in 5.56 nato so you can use that or 223 ammo. Put a redfield scope and quick detach mounts on it and you are still under $1500.

Should get ya self some valve grinding paste and work the action works wonders for s**ty actions like the mossberg had to do it to the wife's ruger as it was a bindy pita thing now it's as smooth as silk.

[northdude]

Went through this exact exercise last year - ended up settling on an Weatherby Vanguard with a Leupold 4-12x40 on a Gamereaper 1-piece mount. Works brilliantly for me and within your budget, just food for thought.

+1 on the gamereaper mount nice solid set up

[Rumpig69]

I bought a Ruger American Ranch 5.56 and put a Vortex Crossfire II 4-12x44 BDC under $1100 nice little shooter

[bigtone]

Should get ya self some valve grinding paste and work the action works wonders for s**ty actions like the mossberg had to do it to the wife's ruger as it was a bindy pita thing now it's as smooth as silk.[/quote]



The mossy has had about 6-7000 rounds through it now and most of the time it was full of dirt so that was my version of grinding paste. I put a patch through it every few thousand rounds and it shoots off for a few rounds and then when it gets back up to temperature it's like a laser beam again! Just adds to the fun not having to care about it too much! I always thought the whole cleaning routine was a load of hogwash and this rifle certainly proves it!

[Tank]

Yeah I didn't mean to bash tikka. They are a damn fine rifle but for me the Howa just has an edge. There's a few things about it that I like over the tikka.
1. The double stack mag tends to be a better system in my opinion , saves space and can be top loaded easier
2. The extended magazines that you can get for Tikkas are to my eye a bit unsightly, whereas the ones for Howa rifles look pretty good
3. The plastic stocks on a lot of tikka rifles seem a bit uncomfortable for me, not sure why.
4. Howa rifles are better priced
With all that said, Tikka do seem to generally shoot straighter out of the box than Howa but that's just in my experience. With a tiny bit of work both my Howa rifles now shoot under 1moa with factory ammo which is more than good enough for hunting

I'm not sure when Howa started producing rifles I'd mention in the same sentence as a Tikka....but my experience is they're chalk and cheese. The trigger on the Howa is horrible and doesn't seem to improve with fettling (creepy as). The Tikka has a tuneable trigger that is as inert and crisp as you could ever want.
I understand the pro's you've mentioned but I'm sceptical of the overall quality with the Howa.
I'd wager it's resale would hold 'a little' better too.
It's a person choice at the end of the day....but quality wins I reckon.
If you're gonna invest $1500.....there's good second hand T3's out there and throw on a Leupold and never look back!
Regs,
Tank.

[Tank]

I'd look at tikka for that money.

Amen to that Mitch.

[bigfellascott]

The Howa Trigger can be tuned and tuned very well indeed if you know what you are doing, you can take the creep out of it no worries again you need to know what you are doing, I have several Howa's with diff factory triggers in them and they are great triggers once set up right, I can adjust them down so light I can set them off with a feather literally but when that light they aren't really usable for hunting purposes as they are just too sensitive to use in such a state, you can use them on the range and they go great there (like a benchrest trigger in that regard - very light and crisp)

If you want a great Howa trigger send it to the Ebay Guy (google it) and you will see just how good his work is.

As for quality, no issues there either, I've had one for over 35yrs now and it's never let me down in any way at all, actions smooth (no binding etc like some actions) I love the top load set up, much easier than the Tikka in that regard, the bluing on the earlier ones is way better than the later offerings, that's about the only real diff between the older and newer versions that I can see and of course the updated trigger system (HACT) which isn't a bad trigger to use but can be made fantastic with a bit of Glen Coughlan (Ebay Guy) magic.

As for accuracy, can't complain about that either, with handloads they are fantastic and even with factory loads I got great results out of them (plenty good enough for hunting purposes that's for sure) I generally don't buy the complete firearm, I just buy the barreled action and drop em in Boyds Stocks as a rule (don't like plastic stocks).













Not bad for a action that costs around $450 at the time and one of the rifles that produced some of those results cost me $450 complete (minus scope) and one cost me $780 including scope (Nikon Prostaff and Game Reaper 1pc Mounts) and postage

[bigfellascott]

Yeah I didn't mean to bash tikka. They are a damn fine rifle but for me the Howa just has an edge. There's a few things about it that I like over the tikka.
1. The double stack mag tends to be a better system in my opinion , saves space and can be top loaded easier
2. The extended magazines that you can get for Tikkas are to my eye a bit unsightly, whereas the ones for Howa rifles look pretty good
3. The plastic stocks on a lot of tikka rifles seem a bit uncomfortable for me, not sure why.
4. Howa rifles are better priced
With all that said, Tikka do seem to generally shoot straighter out of the box than Howa but that's just in my experience. With a tiny bit of work both my Howa rifles now shoot under 1moa with factory ammo which is more than good enough for hunting

I'm not sure when Howa started producing rifles I'd mention in the same sentence as a Tikka....but my experience is they're chalk and cheese. The trigger on the Howa is horrible and doesn't seem to improve with fettling (creepy as). The Tikka has a tuneable trigger that is as inert and crisp as you could ever want.
I understand the pro's you've mentioned but I'm sceptical of the overall quality with the Howa.
I'd wager it's resale would hold 'a little' better too.
It's a person choice at the end of the day....but quality wins I reckon.
If you're gonna invest $1500.....there's good second hand T3's out there and throw on a Leupold and never look back!
Regs,
Tank.

Howa started making Military weapons back in WW2 from memory and I think still make them (machine guns etc) they also made parts for Sako at one stage and even made a clone of the Timberwolf I think it was (can't remember exactly now). If you have a good look at the Howa Action you will notice it shares a glaring resemblance to the older Sako Actions - I have a L461Ai in 222 and my 222 Howa is almost identical to it in shape of action, floor plate etc









I believe Sako took Legal Action against Howa for the cloning of one of it's rifles and that resulted in them parting ways.

[tom604]

howas do have crappy triggers but the ebay guy will do them up and they will brake clean and with no creep whatsoever and he can make them light as 1.5 lb or there abouts, been awhile since i had mine done and i forget what he told me

[bigfellascott]

howas do have crappy triggers but the ebay guy will do them up and they will brake clean and with no creep whatsoever and he can make them light as 1.5 lb or there abouts, been awhile since i had mine done and i forget what he told me

He can make em a lot lighter than that trust me but generally he makes em around 1.2lb which is a nice weight trigger for varmint work,safety still works etc they can be set lighter but they really aren't much good for hunting when they are so sensitive, you have to be real gentle when closing the bolt as you could end up with a slam fire if you set them real light, the HACT triggers aren't bad but are definitely way better after glen does his magic too em.

If you want to feel a s**t trigger buy a ruger, man are they heavy sons of bitchs but easy enough to tune up (did the wife's and it's very nice now - I changed the sear angle polished the faces and put a spring from a yo dave kit in it also, now it's usable before you near needed to hook up the 4by to it lol.

[sandgroperbill]

Two different types of ruger triggers. The LC6 isn't great out of the box, but can be done up nicely. I really love the marksman trigger, great and comfortable hunting trigger in my opinion, and everyone that I know that has tried it likes it.

[bigfellascott]

Yeah LC6 I'm talking about - definitely a lawyer trigger lol

[Blu333]

I have no idea how people can't top load tikkas , I've never had a problem with mine or the other couple ive used. Tbh it just seems like a bandwagon complaint.

[KennyA]

My recommendation is the Howa 1500.
I have just purchased a Howa in 223 and I could be happier with it every respect.
My best groups so far are under 1/2 Moa. (Heavy barrel)
I have topped it off with a vortex 6-18 scope....awesome combo. I'm manly target shooting. They are excellent value for money.
On your budget you should be able to get the rifle, scope, mounts, and 100 rounds of factory ammo. Aussie Outback shoots very well in my Howa.
cheers and happy shooting.

[Tank]

Didn't have to 'send' my trigger anywhere.....As good as any out of the box.
Perhaps it's better the Howa guys and us Tikka guys leave it at that.
I understand the potential and yes....those are some impressive groups....but as mentioned they need a fair bit of attention after purchase to come up to standard.
Great value I'm sure.....why buy 2nd hand at that price point?
Quality wins. In my book anyways.
And with some great glass out there at reasonable money....for 15 hunge....the Tikka would be my choice...(and is).
Regs,
Tank.

[Gwion]

My Howa (before I rebarrelled):

223rem HB, 2nd hand $550
Trigger by Glen the trigger man $60

Shot 0.8MOA with Rem SPS factory, 0.6 with my first ever hand loading loads.

Boyds Stock $170 delivered
Bedding compound and pillars $70
Trim barrel to 18"
Atlasworks floor plate and AI DBM $150
(Got a bargain through a forum).

Total: $1000. Saved at least $250 over a tikka (more like $500 for varmint). Learnt a crap load about accurising rifles. Changed powder and seating depth to shoot reliable 0.4MOA and the occasional really nice group.

Almost bought a Tikka when I built my lefty 223 but didn't want such a long action. Went a Zastava mini Mauser action and fitted my Howa barrel to it. Was a bit rough to start but some work with lapping compound after a couple of light passes with a file and is smooth as. Boyds stock (converted to left hand by yours truly), bedded. Total build cost around $1050. Will also shoot 0.5MOA with a tuned hand load but more like 0.7 loaded for smooth mag feed. All I'm missing is a DBM floor plate.

Waiting for Lithgow to release lefty 223, then I'll wildcat the Zasty.

By the way: rebarrelled the Howa to 7mm08 with Truflite light straight taper (read HEAVY barrel, also got the action tickled a little), rebedded into Boyds stock, new magazine for 308 cartridge family. Tune target load: 0.3MOA (best group was under 0.2moa but I can't do that regularly) Tuned hunting load: 0.6MOA COAL determined by mag length.

All I'm saying is, even with the extra work the Howa still comes out quite a bit cheaper than Tikka and even out of the box, with factory ammo, there are plenty of reports of excellent accuracy. Guy I bought mine off said he couldn't get it to shoot (saw a forum post, that wasn't his sales pitch). My guess is he didn't have the basic form to shoot it well.

[Cooper]

I'd be tempted to buy the Howa and spend the rest on better Glass.
I wanted a Tikka when I bought my .223 but ended up with Wetherby (Howa). It hasn't missed beat and I quite like it! I do have a Tikka 3x on order at the moment in 7mm 08. Cannot really go wrong. Just by whatever feels best to you!

[tom604]

howas do have crappy triggers but the ebay guy will do them up and they will brake clean and with no creep whatsoever and he can make them light as 1.5 lb or there abouts, been awhile since i had mine done and i forget what he told me

He can make em a lot lighter than that trust me but generally he makes em around 1.2lb which is a nice weight trigger for varmint work,safety still works etc they can be set lighter but they really aren't much good for hunting when they are so sensitive, you have to be real gentle when closing the bolt as you could end up with a slam fire if you set them real light, the HACT triggers aren't bad but are definitely way better after glen does his magic too em.

If you want to feel a s**t trigger buy a ruger, man are they heavy sons of bitchs but easy enough to tune up (did the wife's and it's very nice now - I changed the sear angle polished the faces and put a spring from a yo dave kit in it also, now it's usable before you near needed to hook up the 4by to it lol.

i have a ruger and totally agree with you but i have had it worked and she's a beauty now but for a really sh8t trigger you cant go past a marlin 22, put a bic pen spring in to lighten it up and she's only just passable for a bunny gun

[Tank]

Yeah. I get it. Yes the long action isn't ideal.....but it's slick. Yes the price point is there in the Howa's favour.
Like you I favour my own flavour....have T3's in 223, 6.5x55 and 9.3x62. The 6.5 is a Super Varmint and is ridiculously consistent and accurate. The other pair are much more recent purchases and I'm still playing with scope options but they're great pieces of kit....as is.
Good to hear of successes with them but amongst mates with them I've not seen anything like those results.
You gotta be happy with the price though....that's some value!
I'll still lay odds on the Finnish product being around when I'm done shooting over the Howa.
Regs,
Tank.

[superkel66]

I'd look at tikka for that money.

good advice! i have browning A bolt 2 and its good as well. nice and light for strolling through the paddocks etc but will shoot sub MOA everytime.

[bigfellascott]

Yeah. I get it. Yes the long action isn't ideal.....but it's slick. Yes the price point is there in the Howa's favour.
Like you I favour my own flavour....have T3's in 223, 6.5x55 and 9.3x62. The 6.5 is a Super Varmint and is ridiculously consistent and accurate. The other pair are much more recent purchases and I'm still playing with scope options but they're great pieces of kit....as is.
Good to hear of successes with them but amongst mates with them I've not seen anything like those results.
You gotta be happy with the price though....that's some value!
I'll still lay odds on the Finnish product being around when I'm done shooting over the Howa.
Regs,
Tank.

Yeah mate you got to have faith in your gear, that's why I've stuck with the Howa's - my oldest one is 35yrs old now and shot that 200m group when it was around 30yrs old I guess, actually shot 2 groups similar to that with it at that distance that day, I used it for rolling skippies back in the day and loved it that much I just kept buying em because they were so reliable.

All I know is I wished my Sako was as good as em, I'd feel a lot happier then about shelling out 3 times the price!

The trigger on the Sako is the worst trigger I have to use sadly, the Ruger was right up there with it but I tuned that one up in a matter of mins and now it's great to use, the Sako well that's one nightmare of a thing to pull apart and I just ain't interested in going there, I will have to Send it back down to Glen to have a bit more of a play with I think, it's better than it was but it's still not at the level of my Howa's sadly (hard to believe I know) but it's a fact sadly.

If I can get that sorted out I think it will shoot a lot better than it does now and I'm thinking of free floating the barrel on it (they are pressure bedded) just haven't pulled the pin on doing it yet for fear it may make it worse.

Anyway mate enjoy the Tikka's - I'd buy one but it would have to have a timber stock (can't come at the plastic crap stocks no matter what brand) soulless things are to me - I know they are practical and all but just don't do bugger all for me, they feel toy like.

The little Sako A1 222

[Tank]

I have no idea how people can't top load tikkas , I've never had a problem with mine or the other couple ive used. Tbh it just seems like a bandwagon complaint.

It's not hard to keep a mag topped up in any case.....but I agree. The occasional double movement and sure the port isn't that big....but it works. If you reckon you need to.

[Tank]

Ok Bigfellascott....can't argue with your experience and results with the Howa.
As for being a member of the 'soulless' brigade....I imagine you'll hate the MDT LSS XL chassis and Magpul hardware I'm eying for the Super Varmint.....that's another story though I guess.
Pic of my real shooting love.....when you gotta have soul and character....oh and a real nice trigger!

[bigfellascott]

Lovely mate, I'm not so much against the decent composite type stocks, just the cheap arse rubbish that comes on howa's, tikka's and the like, it's just cheap nasty rubbish IMO and completely soulless, it doesn't look good, it's just another way for manufacturers to increase their margins.

I call em "Wheelie Bin" stocks cos they are made of the same crap and belong in em

[bigfellascott]

Didn't have to 'send' my trigger anywhere.....As good as any out of the box.
Perhaps it's better the Howa guys and us Tikka guys leave it at that.
I understand the potential and yes....those are some impressive groups....but as mentioned they need a fair bit of attention after purchase to come up to standard.
Great value I'm sure.....why buy 2nd hand at that price point?
Quality wins. In my book anyways.
And with some great glass out there at reasonable money....for 15 hunge....the Tikka would be my choice...(and is).
Regs,
Tank.

I wouldn't call getting a trigger worked a fair bit of attention mate I just buy the barrelled action and drop em straight into a Boyds stock, send the triggers off to the Ebay Guy $60, throw some mounts and a scope on em and go out shooting.

Here's the first shots from my 204 Howa using Factory ammo (50m just seeing what it was like - Hadn't had the trigger tuned at that stage either)

I think this was the Rem Accutip 32gn (4 shot groups)


Federal 32gn (can't remember the name of them (4 shot groups)


Then tried some 39gn Sierra Bk handloads I knocked up to try (140m)


All shooting done of one of them plastic camping tables with a bipod up front and homemade sandbag at the rear, good enough to smack some ferals way out yonder and it does that real well

These two were silly enough to come out and check out what all the noise was from the Fox Pro and got a couple of holes in their heads at 273m (just sittin under a tree with the bipod restin on my feet for a little extra elevation as I needed it



Where I was and where they got knocked


This lot were all shot at ranges from 220m-255m from memory using what was left of that factory ammo I first tried in it.


Was sitting up on the hill shooting down into the valley below (first time hunting with it, was a great day out)


She's pretty handy at removing bunny heads - the furthest I shot one in the head was 305m from memory - she's only running a 3-9x50 Nikon on top which seems to be more than up to the job considering that shot was around 8.20pm (Daylight savings time) not quite dark enough to run a spotlight but only a matter of 10mins or so and we needed one, I was shooting off the bonnet using one of my homemade sandbags.

Even shot a rabbit at just on 300m using the wrong bolt! I wondered why I couldn't extract the fired case, it was because I was running the 250 bolt in the 204!

I really wonder what sort of accuracy I could get out of these things if I bothered with all the full on reloading stuff some fellas get up to and if I bothered to bed the actions.

Anyway mate enjoy the Tikka's - I reckon I will buy one one day for something diff, probably a laminated Hunter.

[Mitch]

Unfortunately it's turned very howa Vs Tikka, I may have started that, Woops.

Either way best thing to do mate is go to your local, handle them, shoulder them, work the action, and see what you personally like most