Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by pomemax » 10 Oct 2016, 12:35 pm

i found that when i bought the rifle it was right at the front and looked not right
but worked out ok
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 10 Oct 2016, 12:38 pm

pomemax wrote:i found that when i bought the rifle it was right at the front and looked not right
but worked out ok


So you took the front band completely off?
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by pomemax » 10 Oct 2016, 5:59 pm

No i bought the one that did not look like the rest lol
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 10 Oct 2016, 8:03 pm

pomemax wrote:No i bought the one that did not look like the rest lol


Of course - I understand now. I'm pretty sure yours is a 336BL - you actually probably made a great choice by purchasing "the one that looked different" (perhaps unintentionally ;) )

From an accuracy perspective, the less bands the better I gather - and guess what, the 336BL has a total of ZERO!
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 17 Oct 2016, 7:13 am

RANGE REPORT (ACCURAZING MY 336W)

Very disappointingly, I forgot to swap my front blade back to the target insert before heading off to the range. The difference between the realised (target) accuracy between these two sights is measurable, and all my previously data has been collected using the target insert. Take the following diagrams:

blade.jpg
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The "blade" is fantastic for hunting purposes (due to the maximised visibility), but it's not so great for precision target work. It works O-K when you have a square, highly contrasting target, but is particularly tricky to use with the red circular targets as currently provided by the SSAA at ANZAC range.

peep.jpg
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Here's what it looks with the target insert; obviously much easier to use in conjunction with the round targets. Very disappointing indeed that I forgot to bring it :(

Say la vie, I had to roll with the punches, so I'll report my findings anyway.

STEP 1 - NAKED

Nice and cool at this point, using my uber-pleasant Trail Boss loads. I could tell it really wanted to group:

naked.jpg
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This is just an example from a few samples. Whilst this is not sub 2moa, almost certainly it would have grouped under 2moa if I had the target insert or better yet, a scope. From how it felt, I feel completely naked it would have come close to 1moa.

STEP 2 - FOREND BACK ON

Another example from a few samples. Screws not super tight, and the forend was sanded back slightly to loosen the forend band (as talked about in my earlier post). Pretty similar accuracy, but rather interestingly the point-of-impact (POI) changed slightly down and to the right:

foreGrip.jpg
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STEP 3 - FULLY REASSEMBLED

Magazine and front barrel band back on now, again paying attention not to over-tighten the screws. I took the whole "tight, then half a turn back" strategy. POI changed again, notably higher, but it's grouping just as tightly - YAY!

reassembled.jpg
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2206H HOT HUNTING LEAD LOADS

A side project is to also use my checkless lead projectiles as hunting loads - this was something I've failed at in the past using Topscore and Hawkesbury Rivers (as the lead was just too soft to push past 1400fps, a bit too slow to be ethical on deer). On the contrary, I was able to push the Westcastings projectiles up to ~1800fps whilst still maintaining stabilisation (without excessive fouling). At these velocities they're a rather stiff 800ft-lb of energy at 100m. They shoot practically flat enough to use at varying ranges inside 100m without much holdover. The rifle was getting pretty hot by this point (and I was rushing), so again, I'm confident they'd be much tighter in a cold clean barrel (with the target insert/scope):

hot.jpg
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These will be my go-to in the field, and I'll keep plinking with Trail Boss.

IN CONCLUSION

Whilst the results weren't consistently sub 2moa, I have no doubt that after the forend alterations my 336W is shooting measurably more accurately. As spoken about at the start of this post, it's quite difficult to shoot moa with a blade sight. I know from experience that the target insert will shrink my groups by 0.5moa - 1moa, so I am fairly confident in saying that my rifle should now shoot less than or equal to 2moa. Overall, a big success in my eyes!

If I get time, I shall post some more results using the target sights as proof - probably around mid November.
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by Tripod » 17 Oct 2016, 7:34 am

How many shots in those first groups?"
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 17 Oct 2016, 7:37 am

Tripod wrote:How many shots in those first groups?"


I went with three shot groups during reassembly. The hot 2206H experimentals at the end (after reassembly) were varying though, 4-5 shots (and shot a fair bit faster).
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by Tripod » 17 Oct 2016, 8:06 am

in2anity wrote:
Tripod wrote:How many shots in those first groups?"


I went with three shot groups during reassembly. The hot 2206H experimentals at the end (after reassembly) were varying though, 4-5 shots (and shot a fair bit faster).

In that case it looks like the projectiles weren't stable, Which is why you didn't get the accuracy you were after.
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by wrenchman » 17 Oct 2016, 8:32 am

i have never tryed to get moa groups with lever guns they are great woods guns and fast handleing but my son has been working with his a lot and told me he is geting better groups with copper jacket bullets he told me the micro groove barrels are not very deep and dont like lead
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by wrenchman » 17 Oct 2016, 8:36 am

this is my sons he had the sights changed out and a rail put on it the rear sight is a peep at the back of the rail he has not found a scope he likes for it yet
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by Gwion » 17 Oct 2016, 8:48 am

Tripod wrote:
in2anity wrote:
Tripod wrote:How many shots in those first groups?"


I went with three shot groups during reassembly. The hot 2206H experimentals at the end (after reassembly) were varying though, 4-5 shots (and shot a fair bit faster).

In that case it looks like the projectiles weren't stable, Which is why you didn't get the accuracy you were after.


Yep... I can see the key-holing now that i'm on a bigger screen.
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 17 Oct 2016, 8:52 am

Tripod wrote:
in2anity wrote:
Tripod wrote:How many shots in those first groups?"


I went with three shot groups during reassembly. The hot 2206H experimentals at the end (after reassembly) were varying though, 4-5 shots (and shot a fair bit faster).

In that case it looks like the projectiles weren't stable, Which is why you didn't get the accuracy you were after.


I don't agree with this. The projectiles actually are stable. It looks as if they aren't (because some of the holes aren't concentric), but relatively speaking, they are as accurate, if not more accurate than their semi-jacketed big brothers. Remember the word "stabilisation" is a relative term; at the end of the day, stabilization simply means accuracy. I've dealt with keyholing before and they're a very different ball-game (a very binary sort of a failure).

The reason I feel this way is because I've spoken to "swany" (the moderator over at http://www.marlinowners.com/ who is perhaps the world's most knowledgeable person when it comes to marlin rifles). His record-breaking marlin targets also show signs of non-concentricity for example: https://hoffos.files.wordpress.com/2014 ... target.jpg. These shapes seem to occur more with the fast burning powders such as Unique and Trail Boss, but it does not necessarily translate to poor accuracy.

Accuracy issues here are from me, not the rifle.
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 17 Oct 2016, 9:36 am

wrenchman wrote:i have never tryed to get moa groups with lever guns they are great woods guns and fast handleing but my son has been working with his a lot and told me he is geting better groups with copper jacket bullets he told me the micro groove barrels are not very deep and dont like lead


This is a myth. Microgroove barrels can stabilize lead. They prefer .310" over .309", but it's still possible to stabilize .309" The important point is that checkless lead can't be pushed nearly as fast as gas-checked or jacketed (due to gas-cutting); so you need to tune your load to the hardness of the projectile. You also need to consider lead fouling when pushing lead fast. Keep it slow for plinking, otherwise you'll need a fairly hard and appropriately lubricated projectile with a mid-burn powder like 2207 (similar to H4198) or 2206H (similar to H4895).
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by Tripod » 17 Oct 2016, 9:53 am

I am a member on MO as well, I have many Marlins from .22 up to 50Cal, I shoot cast through them all and the only way my bullets make that shape hole is if the projectile is wobbling.
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 17 Oct 2016, 10:01 am

Tripod wrote:I am a member on MO as well, I have many Marlins from .22 up to 50Cal, I shoot cast through them all and the only way my bullets make that shape hole is if the projectile is wobbling.


Consider this, what if they're all wobbling slightly in exactly the same way each shot; they just have slightly differing velocities, meaning the state of the projectile differs slightly when it impacts with the target (sometimes they are more straight). They are still "stabilised". Have you tried using powders at the fast end of the spectrum before (like Trail Boss, AP70N or AR2205) with checkless lead?
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 17 Oct 2016, 10:16 am

Tripod wrote:I am a member on MO as well, I have many Marlins from .22 up to 50Cal, I shoot cast through them all and the only way my bullets make that shape hole is if the projectile is wobbling.


This is a relevant article:

" It turns out that coning motions are worse for long, slender, heavy bullets than for lighter and shorter bullets. The reason is that the long, heavy bullets have a large separation distance between the center of mass and center of pressure of the bullet. However, a bullet which undergoes coning motion, and even a little nodding motion at the beginning of its flight, is not unstable, that is, it will not tumble as it flies. The spinning motion of the bullet, which is caused by the rifling in the gun barrel, gyroscopically stabilizes the bullet in flight, although the stabilization is not perfect when the bullet cones. The cone angle is small always, and the nutation angle starts out very small and dies out very quickly."

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexp ... 4th/46.cfm

Of course you are entitled to your onion, and we can certainly agree to disagree :drinks: There was a time where I would have agreed with your hypothesis, but I've been experimenting with lead for many years now and my views are based on my own evidence rather than speculation.
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 17 Oct 2016, 10:37 am

wrenchman wrote:this is my sons he had the sights changed out and a rail put on it the rear sight is a peep at the back of the rail he has not found a scope he likes for it yet


Gotta love peep sights; he's doing himself a favor by using one, makes using a scope feel like cheating :D See how it has the forend cap instead of the band; this is a good thing. Is that a 30AS? Could be a "shooter" so to speak :P
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by Tripod » 17 Oct 2016, 1:44 pm

We will have to agree to disagree, The amount of coning they are talking about in that article is measured in thousandths of an inch and wouldn't be noticeable on the target, All I mean't by my original comment was to push them faster to stabilise them better or maybe go up another thou in bullet diameter which helps with the Microgroove rifling.
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 17 Oct 2016, 3:02 pm

Tripod wrote:We will have to agree to disagree, The amount of coning they are talking about in that article is measured in thousandths of an inch and wouldn't be noticeable on the target, All I mean't by my original comment was to push them faster to stabilise them better or maybe go up another thou in bullet diameter which helps with the Microgroove rifling.


I get what you're saying. But if the (MAX) Trail Boss loads indeed consistently group to less than 2moa (which basically represents the upper capabilities of a 30-30), would you still consider the round to be "unstable"?
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 17 Oct 2016, 5:43 pm

Tripod wrote:We will have to agree to disagree, The amount of coning they are talking about in that article is measured in thousandths of an inch and wouldn't be noticeable on the target, All I mean't by my original comment was to push them faster to stabilise them better or maybe go up another thou in bullet diameter which helps with the Microgroove rifling.


The effect we are discussing is often referred to as "yawing" see here: http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=40746 and here http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=49661 and is probably mainly due to imperfections in the bullets. Is this the same thing as keyholing? Nope. Does it mean inherent inaccuracy? not necessarily; there's a link, but not a correlation.
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 18 Oct 2016, 7:03 am

Tripod wrote:We will have to agree to disagree, The amount of coning they are talking about in that article is measured in thousandths of an inch and wouldn't be noticeable on the target, All I mean't by my original comment was to push them faster to stabilise them better or maybe go up another thou in bullet diameter which helps with the Microgroove rifling.


What you say is true - pushing them faster reduces yaw. This is obvious if you look at my mid-burn targets - the good news and these are my hunting loads. There's not a whole lot I can do when it comes to my Trail Boss loads however - but I don't see this as an issue as they are only 50m plinking loads, and they are still quite accurate (irrespective of the yawing).
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by Tripod » 18 Oct 2016, 7:27 am

Your 2206 load target doesn't show the instability that your Trailboss loads do which is why I suggested the load may be the problem.
I have been using Trailboss since it came out over 10 years ago and think it is an allright powder but not a great powder, It never gets the best groups but it shoots good enough to ring my gongs at 50 and 100 and like you say it is a great plinking load and a tub lasts for ages but it is also a dirty powder.
Are the Westcastings a coated type projectile or lubed? I don't shoot commercial cast projectiles.
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 18 Oct 2016, 7:42 am

Tripod wrote:Your 2206 load target doesn't show the instability that your Trailboss loads do which is why I suggested the load may be the problem.
I have been using Trailboss since it came out over 10 years ago and think it is an allright powder but not a great powder, It never gets the best groups but it shoots good enough to ring my gongs at 50 and 100 and like you say it is a great plinking load and a tub lasts for ages but it is also a dirty powder.
Are the Westcastings a coated type projectile or lubed? I don't shoot commercial cast projectiles.


They are the "Black Premiums" which are a dry bonded polymer-like coating (not exactly sure, as they are pretty secretive). They are sized to .310" I haven't tried .311"s with Trail Boss - they might be a little a little more stable. Do you normally use 2207 under lead?
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by Gamerancher » 18 Oct 2016, 8:02 am

Try 17gr of 2207 behind the cast bullets. I use that load for my wife and son in the .30-30 they use for lever-gun silhouette. Quite accurate and has enough punch to take the 200m rams with very mild recoil. Try lubing your coated bullets, it can drastically improve accuracy. A simple lube made of 50/50 beeswax and canola oil will do the job.
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by Tripod » 18 Oct 2016, 8:38 am

In the bigger stuff I use 2207. I never had a lot of success with the coated projectiles, They seem to be more suited to pistols, The guys I know who do have success with them usually lube them. Which seems like overkill to me but it works for them.
Most of what I shoot I cast myself, I GC most of mine and push them hard. I am just starting down the path of Swaging projectiles.
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 18 Oct 2016, 9:14 am

Gamerancher wrote:Try 17gr of 2207 behind the cast bullets. I use that load for my wife and son in the .30-30 they use for lever-gun silhouette. Quite accurate and has enough punch to take the 200m rams with very mild recoil. Try lubing your coated bullets, it can drastically improve accuracy. A simple lube made of 50/50 beeswax and canola oil will do the job.


I got up to 16.5gns of 2207 under a .309" Topscore projectile years ago with mediocre results, although they where only around 10HB, so not really comparable to the Westcastings I use these days (which are notebly harder). I think I have a little bit left in the bottle so I might be able to scrape a few together.

How would you guys rate 2206H with commercial coated projectiles?
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 21 Dec 2016, 11:17 am

So a bit of an update on my progress with accurizing my 336W in conjunction with commercial coated hard-cast projectiles. My current batch of projectiles are Westcastings "Black Premiums", which have a BHN of around 16bh. I have about 600 of these left so I need to make them work (hence the motivation).

As suggested by Noisydad, I experimented with lubing these (already coated) projectiles; I pan lubed using his formula of:

1 part paraffin wax (candle wax)
1 part pure lard
1/2 part beeswax

Before:

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After:

lubed.JPG
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Finished:

finished.JPG
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I tried three different powders and went back and revisited 2207 (as suggested) and 2206H. The results were mixed.

Trail Boss

The long and short of it, Westcastings "Black Premiums" don't gel with Trail Boss. Max 9.0gr Trail Boss gives me an average of 6-12moa; my rifle certainly does not like this load:

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8.4gr of Trail Boss is a little better (at around 3-4moa), but still far from averaging <=2moa (my end-goal):

8.4_TB.jpg
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There is still evidence of destabilization on these Trail Boss targets - something I was really hoping to eliminate with lubing. This probably explains the sub-par accuracy.

Actually, I'm convinced my rifle favours 8.4gr Trail Boss regardless of the projectile manufacturer. Hawkesberry River and Topscore both also like 8.4gr Trail Boss; they grouped at around 2.5 - 3.0moa with this load. Still not great by any stretch, but that'll have to do, I do not want to waste my 1.5kg bottle.

I must say I'm starting to think generally Trail Boss isn't the best powder out there. Good value, but not nearly as accurate as the mid-burns. I used to rave about the stuff (due to the fluffiness of it), but the proof is in the pudding. I think I might give it up once I get through the bottle.

2207

I haven't tried 2207 for some years now, so I thought it would be a good opportunity to go back and revisit it. And WOW what a huge improvement! Looking back at my data, 2207 has performed well for me in the past (with Topscore projectiles to be precise), I'm not sure why I recently neglected it TBH. It seems very sensetive to the load though. 16.0gr 2207 seems the sweet spot, 17.0gr blows out.
Off-the-bat I knew it wanted to group, a three shot group was sitting at 1.5moa:

3shot_16_2007.JPG
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But I like to report 5 shot groups, and anoyingly that last shot took it from 1.5moa to 2.0moa:

16_2207.jpg
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I could well of pulled that lost shot though TBH (after all, I was using iron sights), so there's the distinct possibility the groups could indeed be sub 2.0moa...

2206H

I've shot a lot of this powder - it works pretty well with a lot of load, also jacketed. Not as sensitive as 2207, and you can push the "Black Premiums" to 1800fps with acceptable accuracy (~3moa). 21.0gr of 2206H seems to be the best load at around 1.6":

21_2206H.jpg
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Overall 2206H probably yields about 2.5moa at best. I've achieved this in the past with Hawkesberry and Topscore. I settled on 2206H a while back, but I think I need to accept the fact that 2207 pips it at the posts.

Summary

2207 is the clear winner here, and I thin 2207 will consistently group inside 2moa. I'm going to focus in on this load moving forward, The real question is, how significant is the lube? That is a question that I cannot currently answer. My gut is telling me that the lube does help a little. The proof will be in the data.

Next session I'll load half lubed and and half unlubed. I'll also whack a scope back on the old girl to help eliminate some variables. Onwards and upwards!...

To be continued...
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by Wm.Traynor » 21 Dec 2016, 4:46 pm

Onya mate :thumbsup:
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by Gamerancher » 27 Dec 2016, 10:09 am

To clarify, I cast my own bullets and those used in the .30-30 are out of a 170gr Lee mold, lubed and gas checked. Sized .309 and fired out of 3 different Model 94 Winchesters. I've never shot them off the bench as I shoot Silhouette which is shot off-hand. All of my sighting and testing is shot off-hand. That load will consistently shoot 2" or less @ 50m if I'm doing my part. When the shot falls on the target where the bead is I'm happy with the load. It holds accuracy well out to 200m for the ram targets.
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Re: Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

Post by in2anity » 27 Dec 2016, 9:03 pm

Gamerancher wrote:To clarify, I cast my own bullets and those used in the .30-30 are out of a 170gr Lee mold, lubed and gas checked. Sized .309 and fired out of 3 different Model 94 Winchesters. I've never shot them off the bench as I shoot Silhouette which is shot off-hand. All of my sighting and testing is shot off-hand. That load will consistently shoot 2" or less @ 50m if I'm doing my part. When the shot falls on the target where the bead is I'm happy with the load. It holds accuracy well out to 200m for the ram targets.


Is that 2" from standing unsupported?! :O What's the general consensus about Trail Boss in the silhouette circles? Or do you guys stick to the mid-burns?
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