Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

[in2anity]

So a couple of years ago I purchased a "new" Marlin 336W rather cheaply at around $650aud. I'm lead to believe that new marlins are manufactured by Remington, and the quality/accuracy is not as good as the older JM-stamped ones.

Off a bench it was shooting on average around 4moa with factory ammunition (3-shot groups, large sample size). This was a little disappointing; I put it down to the rather heavy trigger and pretty awful factory dovetail sights.

Since then, I've done a number of things to improve its accuracy. I replaced the trigger with a wild-west trigger happy kit. I replaced the sights with a Williams receiver and Lyman target front. I put a limb saver pad on it (increasing the stock-length). I've handloaded 2207, 2206H and Trail Boss with both semi-jacketed and hard-cast lead. I even tested my handloads with a scope.

For hot semi-jacketed loads, the best intrinsic accuracy was around 3.5moa for Speer 170gns. Although I couldn't really plink with these due to heat issues, not to mention recoil.

For hard-cast 165gn lead, I can achieve no better than an average of 3moa over a reduced 2206H load. I can plink all day with these as the gun does not heat up nearly as quickly. Trail Boss gives on average 3-3.5moa.

Overall I must say I'm a little disappointed with these results, as you often read about 30/30s as being 2moa rifles, particularly with FTX projectiles.

QUESTION: am I being unrealistic in my expectations? If I traded my "new" 336 for an older JM stamped one (like this one: https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=87030 ) could I expect better accuracy? Should I throw away all my hard work/testing for a switch like this?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Supaduke]

Wether you trade it or not is up to you. One thing to consider is "wasting all your hard work/testing". If it's only shooting 3moa you have not gained any significant improvement. I would be quite confident that a different rifle would shoot at least that with pretty much any ammo. So that argument against is pretty much moot.

[Wm.Traynor]

I own a lever rifle in 30/30 and have had no end of trouble with it, including the accuracy. It is not a Marlin but it has a fore-end that is Similar although they are not identical. But they are Similar Enough for me to be confident that my opinion might be of value to you. Mine shot vertically strung-out groups of about 5". If you have any vertical dispersion in your groups then the similarities could mean that my "fix" could work for you. Modifying the bedding reduced the groups to 2.5" at 50 yards with open sights. My eyes are no longer young either The last shot in all three groups opened up on the initial pair which were about an inch apart. Since then the fore-end has been modified further but it has not been tested

Another rifle, a 39A Marlin, was similarly modified and groups went back under an inch at 50. Previously it always shot sub 1" groups with a peep but then I altered the bedding and groups blew out. Success with that rifle has given me the confidence to further modify my 30/30 which will be tested when possible.

All it amounts to is making the fore-end, magazine tube and retaining rings loose, to reduce pressure on the barrel, which presumably, is the cause of the vertical dispersion. It sounds easy but it is not. If you like tinkering, this might be for you.

[in2anity]

Modifying the bedding reduced the groups to 2.5" at 50 yards with open sights. My eyes are no longer young either The last shot in all three groups opened up on the initial pair which were about an inch apart. Since then the fore-end has been modified further but it has not been tested

See I'm worried my expectations are too high - my 336 can group inside 2" @ 50m with peep sights + a target front (with particular handloads). Obviously this blows out to 4" @ 100m (i.e. ~4moa) Perfectly adequate for bigger game, but I'd really like to have confidence targeting small game out to 100m.

Of course sometimes it groups more tightly than this - but there's no point in boasting about a once-off 3 or 5 shot group; I'm all for reporting the truly average accuracy of a rifle.

Is there a chance that those who claim their 30/30 will shoot 2moa are talking about a rather freakish group? Am I simply expecting too much out of a 30/30? Or is my rifle indeed a bit of a lemon?

[Wm.Traynor]

IMO, it is about the "shape" of the groups. Are they round or do they show vertical dispersion?

[in2anity]

IMO, it is about the "shape" of the groups. Are they round or do they show vertical dispersion?

I have a blog article about reloading for the 30/30 which has some above average groups on it, see here:

https://hoffos.wordpress.com/2014/12/17 ... inchester/

Scroll down to the first three of the targets. Generally that's how it groups. Looking at some other targets, perhaps it strings sideways from cold?

What do you make of them?

[Wm.Traynor]

Before we go any further, your use of lead bullets makes me wonder if you cleaned it out properly before shooting jacketed bullets. I know nothing about lead bullet shooting but read on MarlinOwners.com where it is Essential to clean Thoroughly before switching between the two types. I think they were talking abrasive to remove the lead.
There are some experienced lead bullet shooters that post here, from what I have read. You could start a new topic in the "Reloading" forum here and ask the question if you like. I just don't know for sure and it might be an idea to settle the issue before proceeding. I apologise in advance if this turns out to be a red herring/wild goose chase.

[sakoBC]

My JM stamped 30AS (forend cap instead of barrel band) shoots 150grn Federal Powershok and 150grn FN Woodleigh sub moa off the bench using a 2-7x scope. The trigger has been worked by a gunsmith.

From the reviews that I have read of modern 30/30s (Marlin, Winchester & Mossberg) they should shoot close to moa when using a scope and ammo that they like.

I have never used cast projectiles, but understand that weight and finish can vary from projectile to projectile which may make it harder to get tight groups.

IMG_0372.JPG (1.76 MiB) Viewed 7138 times

[in2anity]

Before we go any further, your use of lead bullets makes me wonder if you cleaned it out properly before shooting jacketed bullets. I know nothing about lead bullet shooting but read on MarlinOwners.com where it is Essential to clean Thoroughly before switching between the two types. I think they were talking abrasive to remove the lead.
There are some experienced lead bullet shooters that post here, from what I have read. You could start a new topic in the "Reloading" forum here and ask the question if you like. I just don't know for sure and it might be an idea to settle the issue before proceeding. I apologise in advance if this turns out to be a red herring/wild goose chase.

I'm always pretty thorough when switching from lead back to jacketed - plenty of hoppes 9 bench and brushing (until patches come out clean). Not a goose chase by any stretch; I really appreciate any reasonable opinions! Tbh I haven't at all played with loosening the two bands on it, I've always made sure they were super-tight after every shoot. For testing purpose, would it be possible to remove the forend band altogether?

The thing is, I've never achieved any great deal of accuracy with jacketed - if anything the gun seems to prefer lead. But looking at sakoBC's targets makes me feel that indeed my rifle is not reaching its full potential. Then again, maybe I should be analysing 3-shot groups instead of 5+...

[in2anity]

My JM stamped 30AS (forend cap instead of barrel band) shoots 150grn Federal Powershok and 150grn FN Woodleigh sub moa off the bench using a 2-7x scope. The trigger has been worked by a gunsmith.

From the reviews that I have read of modern 30/30s (Marlin, Winchester & Mossberg) they should shoot close to moa when using a scope and ammo that they like.

I have never used cast projectiles, but understand that weight and finish can vary from projectile to projectile which may make it harder to get tight groups.

IMG_0372.JPG

That's exactly the sort of accuracy I'm hoping for - makes me wonder if there was a reason my "new" 336W was so cheap; perhaps that batch was known to be lemons? How much of a difference do the barrel band(s) make in your opinion?

Also, have you tried the sierra 150gns? How about any of the sierras for the matter?

My current hunting load is a sierra 150gn over 34.0gns 2206H. Case length as per the Lee Case Length Gauge & Cutter (not even sure what the coal ends up as, but pretty confident about consistency).

[Oldbloke]

Might upset a few members here. I had a Marlin 336 in 3030 many yrs ago. Shot many pigs and goats with it. Loved it and regret selling it to buy a 3006 due to cash requirements at the time.
But I never got great accuracy iether. Perhaps 3 moa with factory ammo. Bolt actions are generally more accurate than levers or pumps. And I think thats just the way it is due to design. Sure with work you can get great groups but its easier with a bolt action.

Buy a BA if you need to take longer shots but keep the 336, more fun in close.

[Gamerancher]

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[Gamerancher]

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[Gamerancher]

Lever guns with thin-walled barrels and tight barrel bands/fore-wood tend to string as they heat up. I had one that you had to loosen off so much the fore-end felt like it could fall off. That may be why you are getting better results with the reduced loads. I have stated it on here before but to repeat, these guns are still based on the original designs around shooting @ black-powder velocities and you will find that they tend to perform well if run at those. The .30-30 was originally loaded with black-powder due to the inconsistencies of the early "smoke-less" powders even though it was designed to be the "first" smokeless sporting cartridge.
The early "Rem-Lins" as they are in-affectionately known, were of dubious consistency with regards build quality. They are a lot better now.
I shoot lever-gun silhouette and the top shooters in our sport shoot Marlins, new and old, with great results. There are more that shoot cast than jacketed and I've seen these rifles put down consistent under 6" groups @ 200m off-hand when shot by the top shooters. We shoot 10 shots to the line in 5 minutes so barrels tend to heat up if running hot loads. Iron sights, barrel or peep only, no scopes.

SakoBC, if that target is two 3 shot goups aimed at the same point, it 'aint shooting minute of angle.

Sorry about the multiple post, damned bush internet!!!!

[Gwion]

I'd be lucky to shoot 6" groups off hand at 50m! At 200, that's some pretty fine shootin', Tex!

Still... it seems the whole barrel band thing doesn't lend itself to high precision, on the whole.

[Gamerancher]

I didn't say I could do it!! Minute of Ram for me if I'm having a good day.
I have spotted for these shooters though and they really are impressive to watch.
The other fellows who shoot lever guns at paper, (not my interest), get some excellent accuracy out of them.

[in2anity]

I found this article: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/chapter23.htm which backs up what you guys are saying. Basically floating the barrel inside the bands and putting a washer between the magazine and barrel around the front screw.

[Wm.Traynor]

I found this article: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/chapter23.htm which backs up what you guys are saying. Basically floating the barrel inside the bands and putting a washer between the magazine and barrel around the front screw.

I'm not exactly sure where Paco put his washer but his article "inspired" me to put an O-ring on the mag tube, between the front barrel band and the fore sight. My fore sight is not on a ramp. Could have put it between the band and the fore end but it was more work. Did not work. Groups were still vertical.

Getting back to your blog and the first 3 pics of groups. In #2, you say the last (high) shot was a flier owing to the barrel heating. There are a lot of contact points between the barrel and all the stuff in front of the receiver. IMO, it would not hurt to reduce some of that contact by starting out as I did and slackening the front barrel band screw a turn at a time. It is a very slow process and if you are unlucky you will have to work on the parts closer to the action, making only one change at a time.
As for the third group with the horizontal dispersion.......I have no idea how that could be when you shot indoors
Before you go altering things however, I would examine the muzzle. Then try that MO tip and use J B Bore Compound, especially if you have fired a couple of hundred shots. Boil out your barrel and after drying with tight patches, squirt some thin oil, Ballistol, and scrub with a bronze brush. Patch out and examine the cloth Clean the BB or chuck it Oil the now pristine bore with more Ballistol on a bristle brush. This will stop rust for a while but it also helps to reduce the "first shot from a cold bore" effect (when you wipe out with a couple of patches).
See how that goes before working on the barrel band screw.
Good luck
Then go shooting with your jacketed ammo.

[sakoBC]

[quote="Gamerancher"]

SakoBC, if that target is two 3 shot goups aimed at the same point, it 'aint shooting minute of angle.

First group was low. Adjusted, shot the top group and then went hunting. The week did not end well for a lot of goats. I only shoot the 30/30 off the bench to sight in or test loads. Otherwise all practice with the 30/30 is rapid fire offhand at 50m targets. In my opinion that's what it was designed for.

[sakoBC]

Also, have you tried the sierra 150gns? How about any of the sierras for the matter?

Hi mate, sorry I haven't tried the sierras, so not sure how they perform. From my experience lever guns can be a bit fussy like .22LRs. I've tried most of the factory 150grns and mine doesn't like PMC, Remington or Winchester ammo. It does not like 125grn projectiles and will shoot slightly bigger groups with Federal 170grn projectiles. So I just stick with the Federal 150s or the premium Woodleigh 150s which shoot well. They both work well on pigs and goats.

Not sure about the barrel bands as mine has a cap. I have completely stripped mine down a number of times and actually replaced the end cap with a version that has a QD swivel. I'm sure that I have not tightened everything up to exactly the same tension each time. Still shoots moa with Federal and Woodleigh. I may just be lucky.

[Gamerancher]

I thought it was something like that. Just checkin'

All of my lever gun shooting is off-hand. If it's not at silhouettes, it's at game in the bush.

[in2anity]

After more reading specifically about the 336W, I get the feeling it's not uncommon for the 336W to shoot 3-4moa. The 30AS on the other hand (with a forend cap instead of a band) is often quoted as being a particularly accurate member of the family. I'm leaning more and more towards trading for that 30AS on used-guns; question is do I risk buying a gun I can't inspect?

[in2anity]

After some more reading I cam across this post: http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/336/5 ... 336-a.html I might actually try and follow this methodology to see what my 336W is truly capable of.

[Wm.Traynor]

What a terrific bit of researching mate Gonna use that myself

[pomemax]

i went to the range today so i took 30/30 it has a sitron 3x9x40 fire 5 shots of my elbows on the bench at 50 m with factory ammo bet the goats and piggys dont know i have not played with it

[Mick280]

Optics + Lever Actions = Wrong!!
( IMO )
Mick.

[pomemax]

Optics + Lever Actions = Wrong!!
( IMO )
Mick.

When your north of 60 and wear trifocals you may reconsider that

[Mick280]

Yeah I know what you mean,I'm on the wrong side of 50 and need my specs to shoot with open sights.
But it still doesn't sit right with me for some reason ( Nostalgia Maybe )
Mick.

[in2anity]

i went to the range today so i took 30/30 it has a sitron 3x9x40 fire 5 shots of my elbows on the bench at 50 m with factory ammo bet the goats and piggys dont know i have not played with it

Nice! Just curious- what's the size of those squares on that target?

[pomemax]

i went to the range today so i took 30/30 it has a sitron 3x9x40 fire 5 shots of my elbows on the bench at 50 m with factory ammo bet the goats and piggys dont know i have not played with it

Nice! Just curious- what's the size of those squares on that target?

1/2 inch grid

http://www.mytargets.com/