Intrinsic accuracy of a "new" Marlin 336W

[in2anity]

We will have to agree to disagree, The amount of coning they are talking about in that article is measured in thousandths of an inch and wouldn't be noticeable on the target, All I mean't by my original comment was to push them faster to stabilise them better or maybe go up another thou in bullet diameter which helps with the Microgroove rifling.

I get what you're saying. But if the (MAX) Trail Boss loads indeed consistently group to less than 2moa (which basically represents the upper capabilities of a 30-30), would you still consider the round to be "unstable"?

[in2anity]

We will have to agree to disagree, The amount of coning they are talking about in that article is measured in thousandths of an inch and wouldn't be noticeable on the target, All I mean't by my original comment was to push them faster to stabilise them better or maybe go up another thou in bullet diameter which helps with the Microgroove rifling.

The effect we are discussing is often referred to as "yawing" see here: http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=40746 and here http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=49661 and is probably mainly due to imperfections in the bullets. Is this the same thing as keyholing? Nope. Does it mean inherent inaccuracy? not necessarily; there's a link, but not a correlation.

[in2anity]

We will have to agree to disagree, The amount of coning they are talking about in that article is measured in thousandths of an inch and wouldn't be noticeable on the target, All I mean't by my original comment was to push them faster to stabilise them better or maybe go up another thou in bullet diameter which helps with the Microgroove rifling.

What you say is true - pushing them faster reduces yaw. This is obvious if you look at my mid-burn targets - the good news and these are my hunting loads. There's not a whole lot I can do when it comes to my Trail Boss loads however - but I don't see this as an issue as they are only 50m plinking loads, and they are still quite accurate (irrespective of the yawing).

[Tripod]

Your 2206 load target doesn't show the instability that your Trailboss loads do which is why I suggested the load may be the problem.
I have been using Trailboss since it came out over 10 years ago and think it is an allright powder but not a great powder, It never gets the best groups but it shoots good enough to ring my gongs at 50 and 100 and like you say it is a great plinking load and a tub lasts for ages but it is also a dirty powder.
Are the Westcastings a coated type projectile or lubed? I don't shoot commercial cast projectiles.

[in2anity]

Your 2206 load target doesn't show the instability that your Trailboss loads do which is why I suggested the load may be the problem.
I have been using Trailboss since it came out over 10 years ago and think it is an allright powder but not a great powder, It never gets the best groups but it shoots good enough to ring my gongs at 50 and 100 and like you say it is a great plinking load and a tub lasts for ages but it is also a dirty powder.
Are the Westcastings a coated type projectile or lubed? I don't shoot commercial cast projectiles.

They are the "Black Premiums" which are a dry bonded polymer-like coating (not exactly sure, as they are pretty secretive). They are sized to .310" I haven't tried .311"s with Trail Boss - they might be a little a little more stable. Do you normally use 2207 under lead?

[Gamerancher]

Try 17gr of 2207 behind the cast bullets. I use that load for my wife and son in the .30-30 they use for lever-gun silhouette. Quite accurate and has enough punch to take the 200m rams with very mild recoil. Try lubing your coated bullets, it can drastically improve accuracy. A simple lube made of 50/50 beeswax and canola oil will do the job.

[Tripod]

In the bigger stuff I use 2207. I never had a lot of success with the coated projectiles, They seem to be more suited to pistols, The guys I know who do have success with them usually lube them. Which seems like overkill to me but it works for them.
Most of what I shoot I cast myself, I GC most of mine and push them hard. I am just starting down the path of Swaging projectiles.

[in2anity]

Try 17gr of 2207 behind the cast bullets. I use that load for my wife and son in the .30-30 they use for lever-gun silhouette. Quite accurate and has enough punch to take the 200m rams with very mild recoil. Try lubing your coated bullets, it can drastically improve accuracy. A simple lube made of 50/50 beeswax and canola oil will do the job.

I got up to 16.5gns of 2207 under a .309" Topscore projectile years ago with mediocre results, although they where only around 10HB, so not really comparable to the Westcastings I use these days (which are notebly harder). I think I have a little bit left in the bottle so I might be able to scrape a few together.

How would you guys rate 2206H with commercial coated projectiles?

[in2anity]

So a bit of an update on my progress with accurizing my 336W in conjunction with commercial coated hard-cast projectiles. My current batch of projectiles are Westcastings "Black Premiums", which have a BHN of around 16bh. I have about 600 of these left so I need to make them work (hence the motivation).

As suggested by Noisydad, I experimented with lubing these (already coated) projectiles; I pan lubed using his formula of:

1 part paraffin wax (candle wax)
1 part pure lard
1/2 part beeswax

Before:

raw.JPG (350.71 KiB) Viewed 3367 times

After:

lubed.JPG (348.84 KiB) Viewed 3367 times

Finished:

finished.JPG (470.87 KiB) Viewed 3367 times

I tried three different powders and went back and revisited 2207 (as suggested) and 2206H. The results were mixed.

Trail Boss

The long and short of it, Westcastings "Black Premiums" don't gel with Trail Boss. Max 9.0gr Trail Boss gives me an average of 6-12moa; my rifle certainly does not like this load:

9_TB.jpg (577.24 KiB) Viewed 3367 times

8.4gr of Trail Boss is a little better (at around 3-4moa), but still far from averaging <=2moa (my end-goal):

8.4_TB.jpg (631.56 KiB) Viewed 3367 times

There is still evidence of destabilization on these Trail Boss targets - something I was really hoping to eliminate with lubing. This probably explains the sub-par accuracy.

Actually, I'm convinced my rifle favours 8.4gr Trail Boss regardless of the projectile manufacturer. Hawkesberry River and Topscore both also like 8.4gr Trail Boss; they grouped at around 2.5 - 3.0moa with this load. Still not great by any stretch, but that'll have to do, I do not want to waste my 1.5kg bottle.

I must say I'm starting to think generally Trail Boss isn't the best powder out there. Good value, but not nearly as accurate as the mid-burns. I used to rave about the stuff (due to the fluffiness of it), but the proof is in the pudding. I think I might give it up once I get through the bottle.

2207

I haven't tried 2207 for some years now, so I thought it would be a good opportunity to go back and revisit it. And WOW what a huge improvement! Looking back at my data, 2207 has performed well for me in the past (with Topscore projectiles to be precise), I'm not sure why I recently neglected it TBH. It seems very sensetive to the load though. 16.0gr 2207 seems the sweet spot, 17.0gr blows out.
Off-the-bat I knew it wanted to group, a three shot group was sitting at 1.5moa:

3shot_16_2007.JPG (262.97 KiB) Viewed 3367 times

But I like to report 5 shot groups, and anoyingly that last shot took it from 1.5moa to 2.0moa:

16_2207.jpg (606.68 KiB) Viewed 3367 times

I could well of pulled that lost shot though TBH (after all, I was using iron sights), so there's the distinct possibility the groups could indeed be sub 2.0moa...

2206H

I've shot a lot of this powder - it works pretty well with a lot of load, also jacketed. Not as sensitive as 2207, and you can push the "Black Premiums" to 1800fps with acceptable accuracy (~3moa). 21.0gr of 2206H seems to be the best load at around 1.6":

21_2206H.jpg (684.93 KiB) Viewed 3367 times

Overall 2206H probably yields about 2.5moa at best. I've achieved this in the past with Hawkesberry and Topscore. I settled on 2206H a while back, but I think I need to accept the fact that 2207 pips it at the posts.

Summary

2207 is the clear winner here, and I thin 2207 will consistently group inside 2moa. I'm going to focus in on this load moving forward, The real question is, how significant is the lube? That is a question that I cannot currently answer. My gut is telling me that the lube does help a little. The proof will be in the data.

Next session I'll load half lubed and and half unlubed. I'll also whack a scope back on the old girl to help eliminate some variables. Onwards and upwards!...

To be continued...

[Wm.Traynor]

Onya mate

[Gamerancher]

To clarify, I cast my own bullets and those used in the .30-30 are out of a 170gr Lee mold, lubed and gas checked. Sized .309 and fired out of 3 different Model 94 Winchesters. I've never shot them off the bench as I shoot Silhouette which is shot off-hand. All of my sighting and testing is shot off-hand. That load will consistently shoot 2" or less @ 50m if I'm doing my part. When the shot falls on the target where the bead is I'm happy with the load. It holds accuracy well out to 200m for the ram targets.

[in2anity]

To clarify, I cast my own bullets and those used in the .30-30 are out of a 170gr Lee mold, lubed and gas checked. Sized .309 and fired out of 3 different Model 94 Winchesters. I've never shot them off the bench as I shoot Silhouette which is shot off-hand. All of my sighting and testing is shot off-hand. That load will consistently shoot 2" or less @ 50m if I'm doing my part. When the shot falls on the target where the bead is I'm happy with the load. It holds accuracy well out to 200m for the ram targets.

Is that 2" from standing unsupported?! :O What's the general consensus about Trail Boss in the silhouette circles? Or do you guys stick to the mid-burns?

[in2anity]

Lubing VS Non-Lubing Update

Results are in for lubricated vs non-lubricated coated, hard-cast, retail-bought "Wescastings Black Premium" lead projectiles. The difference between the two wasn't as profound as I expected, however I feel they are still measurable. I'm ignoring the real outliers (which may or may not be shooter error) in both samples in a attempt to determine the average accuracy of both. There were 2moa 5 shot groups in both, but layering them all together like this I feel shows the truly average accuracy of the two samples.

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16_2207_L.jpg (790.64 KiB) Viewed 3011 times

I now feel an average accuracy of 2moa is indeed achievable in my rem-lin 336W using AR2207 and retail-bought, pan-lubricated, hard-cast coated lead projectiles, something I've been trying to achieve for literally years now You be the judge!

[Gamerancher]

Yes mate, standing unsupported. Our top shooters can shoot 6" groups @ 200m. I know, I've spotted for them a lot of times.
A fair few use Trail-boss in the lever-action silhouette game. It's popular for the low recoil and economy of reloading. I have used it in the .30-30, .32-20, .44 mag and .45 long colt. All with my own cast bullets. I have used HRBC's and other commercial brands, both coated and un-coated with mixed results. Haven't looked back since I started casting my own.