Very Disappointed in my CZ 455. Is my 1st Rifle Faulty?

[Gwion]

The factory spec for the 455 is 25 in/lbs. I'm betting the *was* nothing wrong with the rifle before the owner starting tampering with it.

From all reports he didn't tamper with it. Same prob since out of the box and he was VERY reluctant to even unscrew the action from the stock.

Both my 22lr shoot best with slightly different torque settings front a rear. I'm sure that although 25"lb may be the 'spec', he would get optimum results through a little experimenting and tweaking of the screws. Both my 22lrs tightened up considerably when i did this and i have their individual 'specs' noted for any time i take the rifle apart.

EDIT: It would be good to him him at least get the groups to on or under an inch at 50yd/m with a consistent point of impact and no double grouping.

[Bosbefok]

I haven't read the whole thread. I have however picked up a few tips re CZ's on other forums. Someone said their cz (17hmr) liked a clean barrel. If accuracy drops of after a few mags put a patch or pull through through it?

[wannabustbunnies]

I am pretty sure the barrel screw torque he is referring to is the barrel tenons for the attachment of the barrel to the receiver. It has been discussed on rimfirecentral. Around 20 inch pounds for the action to stock screws sounds ok. He could also try an aftermarket thicker bottom metal

[tom604]

he bought a lemon,every maker makes one every now and then the same as every maker will make a pearler every now and then, the main point is that if you spend good money to buy a product you should not have to fix faults for it to work

[bladeracer]

this is why I don't buy 2nd hand firearms 32lb bugger me that stock is stuffed now it is COMMONLY known that all settings (except for barrel threads)are in inch pounds

Clearly not commonly known by the manufacturer though...
The manual states the action screws are 6Nm (53in/lb) and the barrel screws are 5Nm (44in/lb).

http://cz-usa.com/hammer/wp-content/upl ... CZ-455.pdf

[bladeracer]

I haven't read the whole thread. I have however picked up a few tips re CZ's on other forums. Someone said their cz (17hmr) liked a clean barrel. If accuracy drops of after a few mags put a patch or pull through through it?

17HMR is shooting high-velocity jacketed bullets though.

[bladeracer]

The factory spec for the 455 is 25 in/lbs. I'm betting the *was* nothing wrong with the rifle before the owner starting tampering with it.

Can you post a pic from your manual?
The only one I found states different.

[Gwion]

this is why I don't buy 2nd hand firearms 32lb bugger me that stock is stuffed now it is COMMONLY known that all settings (except for barrel threads)are in inch pounds

Clearly not commonly known by the manufacturer though...
The manual states the action screws are 6Nm (53in/lb) and the barrel screws are 5Nm (44in/lb).

http://cz-usa.com/hammer/wp-content/upl ... CZ-455.pdf

Bloody hell!

I think i'm going overboard when i screw my 7-08 down to 55"lb, and that is fully glass a pillar bedded. 53"lb is well and truly enough to crush the timber in the stock, causing bedding issues.

[deye243]

this is why I don't buy 2nd hand firearms 32lb bugger me that stock is stuffed now it is COMMONLY known that all settings (except for barrel threads)are in inch pounds

Clearly not commonly known by the manufacturer though...
The manual states the action screws are 6Nm (53in/lb) and the barrel screws are 5Nm (44in/lb).

http://cz-usa.com/hammer/wp-content/upl ... CZ-455.pdf

don't care what the manufacturer says just look at the timber they use it is as soft as pine the 3 cz 22's we had here were and they shot a lot better with them st the way we did it that plus they are all different so to say it has to be 53in-lb proves this to be wrong .

it is why they need proper bedding the timber is soft .

[deye243]

this is why I don't buy 2nd hand firearms 32lb bugger me that stock is stuffed now it is COMMONLY known that all settings (except for barrel threads)are in inch pounds

Clearly not commonly known by the manufacturer though...
The manual states the action screws are 6Nm (53in/lb) and the barrel screws are 5Nm (44in/lb).

http://cz-usa.com/hammer/wp-content/upl ... CZ-455.pdf

Bloody hell!

I think i'm going overboard when i screw my 7-08 down to 55"lb, and that is fully glass a pillar bedded. 53"lb is well and truly enough to crush the timber in the stock, causing bedding issues.

all my long guns were around 45 front and 35 back in this range and they had ally blocks and they would shoot plus hold point

[bladeracer]

don't care what the manufacturer says just look at the timber they use it is as soft as pine the 3 cz 22's we had here were and they shot a lot better with them st the way we did it that plus they are all different so to say it has to be 53in-lb proves this to be wrong .

it is why they need proper bedding the timber is soft .

My point is jumping on a new owner for doing exactly what the manual dictates is just rude.
Whether you buy new or secondhand, odds are it's going to have been torqued to those figures by the manufacturer at least.

[Gwion]

this is why I don't buy 2nd hand firearms 32lb bugger me that stock is stuffed now it is COMMONLY known that all settings (except for barrel threads)are in inch pounds

Clearly not commonly known by the manufacturer though...
The manual states the action screws are 6Nm (53in/lb) and the barrel screws are 5Nm (44in/lb).

http://cz-usa.com/hammer/wp-content/upl ... CZ-455.pdf

Bloody hell!

I think i'm going overboard when i screw my 7-08 down to 55"lb, and that is fully glass a pillar bedded. 53"lb is well and truly enough to crush the timber in the stock, causing bedding issues.

all my long guns were around 45 front and 35 back in this range and they had ally blocks and they would shoot plus hold point

I've found anywhere from 45-55 makes no difference with my rifle. Before the new barrel and whatnot i had a similar setting to yours but now find just smacking them down to 55 holds best. My point was that i think it's overkill on a pillar bedded rifle, let alone a CZ 22lr stock.

[Gwion]

No one is jumping on anyone that i can tell......

[Oldbloke]

Just do as wyley suggested. Cut some cardboard or plastic to raise the action say. .5 Or 1 mm. To check Gw theory check the bolt tightness when you do the shims.
It looked to me that near the trigger something might be touching the stock?

And yes 32 sounds a lot to me.

[happyhunter]

The factory spec for the 455 is 25 in/lbs. I'm betting the *was* nothing wrong with the rifle before the owner starting tampering with it.

Can you post a pic from your manual?
The only one I found states different.

Sure dude. You must have the miss print version. 3Nm is approx 25 in/lb. If you message the question to CZ they will respond "25Nm" for timber stocks. There is an updated manual available from CZ.

[bladeracer]

The factory spec for the 455 is 25 in/lbs. I'm betting the *was* nothing wrong with the rifle before the owner starting tampering with it.

Can you post a pic from your manual?
The only one I found states different.

Sure dude. You must have the miss print version. 3Nm is approx 25 in/lb. If you message the question to CZ they will respond "25Nm" for timber stocks. There is an updated manual available from CZ.

Cool
I wonder if he's got a claim then if the manual that came with the rifle has that same typo?

[happyhunter]

https://www.winchesteraustralia.com.au/warranty

I doubt it since he brought it back to the dealer already and they found nothing wrong with the gun.

[happyhunter]

One more thing is you shouldn't have to go to the hassle of adding shims, cutting bits of plastic or any general fart arsing around on a brand new hunting rifle. I been shooting and hunting most my life and don't know any body who does that crap. I blame the internet

CZ are a kind of high end peasant rifle and it's a known that the 455s can differ in accuracy performance and consensus is the changeable barrel feature is the reason so it's give and take, ie. you get a cool new feature but it might cost you some accuracy. The OP just happened to get one that is at the end of the range of what is considered acceptable for sale. Maybe a different barrel will improve the grouping, maybe not, but personally if the rig does 32mm groups at 50 meters there is nothing faulty about that rifle.

[Tomek]

Hi guys! And thanks for all the help.

I successfully point bedded the rifle. I used paper clip wire in long horse shoe shapes around the bolts and put it together at 20lbs (dry). Also readjusted the barrel screw torque to 30 (lubricated).

The action is sliding back and forth noticeably smoother as Gwion predicted.

Sunday should be good. I'll test it this way first, if it stuffs up again and adding torque doesn't help, I'll clean it quickly and try again, if still no good, I'll try the shims.

Anything else?

BTW yes I do agree I shouldn't have to fix a new rifle. However, since the shop tested it OK I can't return it like a faulty TV. I'm not sure what happened there.. But I've had others shoot it at the range and walk away sheepishly with their results.. I'm hoping this next range session shows the issues.

I'm pretty sure I don't just get lucky with 5 shots at .4 inch , then .7 and then struggle to attain under an inch with the same ammo for the next 4 hours lol. But then my gfs range rifle is great with the right ammo!

[Tomek]

One more thing is you shouldn't have to go to the hassle of adding shims, cutting bits of plastic or any general fart arsing around on a brand new hunting rifle. I been shooting and hunting most my life and don't know any body who does that crap. I blame the internet

CZ are a kind of high end peasant rifle and it's a known that the 455s can differ in accuracy performance and consensus is the changeable barrel feature is the reason so it's give and take, ie. you get a cool new feature but it might cost you some accuracy. The OP just happened to get one that is at the end of the range of what is considered acceptable for sale. Maybe a different barrel will improve the grouping, maybe not, but personally if the rig does 32mm groups at 50 meters there is nothing faulty about that rifle.

Thanks happy hunter. Yeah its bs. If I have to get rid of this, it's going to be a Lithgow or anschutz 1710/12 for me. And I'm DEFINITELY checking the factory target results next time. I'd have never taken this 32mm result if I saw it no matter what "it's function not accuracy" spiel they threw at me.

[Oldbloke]

"The action is sliding back and forth noticeably smoother as Gwion predicted"
That's a very good sign. Good luck.

[Gwion]

Good news. Not an ideal solution but it has already answered one question! Don't expect a huge improvement in accuracy just yet. We just want to see consistent POI. Don't bother playing with the torque settings just yet. You'll be best to properly bed it first. Doing it with the way you have it set up (just for a basic test) will just press the wire into the timber.

Just go put a box through it and we'll see if that POI stays put. Good luck.

[Gwion]

32lbs is a lot for a 22lr.

If you can't use a washer you just need to find a way to lift that one point a little: like the suggestion above or even a folded piece of card board.

The inletting might look smooth but my thinking is that it may actually be slightly higher in the middle, so as you tighten up the screws, dress is being placed on the action. This will cause the bolt to seem tight and will effect the precision of your rifle.

Does the bolt still seem tight when the rifle is out of the stock?

32 is tight on the barrel screws? According to the manual it should be 44 when dry but I lubricated it so it should be less. Should it be 30? It was definitely too tight originally then.

As for the bolt, it has become much easier to cycle now. Although I didn't check it when it's out of the stock. Not like the range but much smoother than before. The main issue is the accuracy now. I'd like to get the barrel screw torque right and try again to do the point bedding again tonight/tomorrow.

A friend of mine also suggested I try cleaning the barrel again if my accuracy starts off great and then goes crap again.

Sorry mate. I misread what meant by barrel screws and started a whole s**t fight about it! Some rifles are bolted down via a barrel lug and I made the assumption that is what you meant. My mistake for replying on the go with this bloody phone.

What ever specs you have for the switch barrel screws, stick to that.

[Tomek]

OK.. So I will try this but I shouldn't tighten the bolts if it fails? I get why but I certainly want to try more things than just this.

Sound like I'll try tighten like an extra 2 pound., clean barrel and if still no good, take out the wire bedding and try a handful of torque settings plus the shims. Should need no more than 2-3 boxes IMO.

I want to get the most out of the trip. In the end, it could very well be as simple as bad torque settings which I could play with easily without my torque wrench.

[Gwion]

You can certainly try adjusting the action screws but i wouldn't just yet. I learnt the hard way that you need to be patient and methodical when 'accurising' your rifle.

If you do want to play with it, take the shims out (they are not a permanent fix, just a testing method) and start at 15"lb on both. Then tighten front by 5"lb and shoot 3 x5 round groups. Then do the same for the back, then repeat steps one and two. Then loosen the front by 5"lb first, shoot groups, then the rear, shoot groups, etc., back to 15"lb.. Make sure you mark each target with the settings. Pick which ever gives you best result and retest by adjusting by 2"lb either side of that setting in the same manner as before, ie: one first and then the other with test groups between.

Personally, I'd bed the action before doing this because you will just have to do it again after bedding.

There are going to be people jump in saying this is a waste of time; well if that's your view then don't do it. Some of us like taking time to get a rifle shooting as good as it can. Both my 22lr shoot a hell of a lot better with their own favourite settings. It's basically just 'tuning' the rifles harmonics.

[happyhunter]

One more thing is you shouldn't have to go to the hassle of adding shims, cutting bits of plastic or any general fart arsing around on a brand new hunting rifle. I been shooting and hunting most my life and don't know any body who does that crap. I blame the internet

CZ are a kind of high end peasant rifle and it's a known that the 455s can differ in accuracy performance and consensus is the changeable barrel feature is the reason so it's give and take, ie. you get a cool new feature but it might cost you some accuracy. The OP just happened to get one that is at the end of the range of what is considered acceptable for sale. Maybe a different barrel will improve the grouping, maybe not, but personally if the rig does 32mm groups at 50 meters there is nothing faulty about that rifle.

Thanks happy hunter. Yeah its bs. If I have to get rid of this, it's going to be a Lithgow or anschutz 1710/12 for me. And I'm DEFINITELY checking the factory target results next time. I'd have never taken this 32mm result if I saw it no matter what "it's function not accuracy" spiel they threw at me.

Shame, as I've owned a few CZs and they have been excellent rifles. I rarely buy new guns as my dealer gives me 30 days to bring a used rifle back if I'm not happy with it and change it for something else but so far I've been happy with the guns he sells, although I have sold a few back to him over the years and bought something else just for the hell of it.

[Tomek]

Today was interesting to say the least. I have the target with details and the order of my groups.

Overall, it was actually not too bad today. Maybe having equal torque settings helped? I still saw my group size double from the 1st to the 6th mag. What is going on with this as 0.5 inch or less with 5 shots is normal with the first 1-2 magz only! And I don't know why Eley Sport worked relatively poorly for me when the shop had all groups from it at 0.5 inch or less. This is a really strange thing... The point bedding didn't seem to have an effect though, unless it made things worse haha. Cleaning the barrel didn't work either. After step 3, I may have adjusted the zero the wrong way? Strange..

I was able to shoot really well with a Gecco ammo I hadn't tried personally before but I only had 20 bullets... It worked really well though and didn't give me as many fliers as the other ammo did. Another group not shown had 0.7" with 5 shots. I seem to have a lot of fliers otherwise and I often see them land way off from where I'm aiming. SK Pistol Match was good too (other target where it would usually be around 0.7-0.8" in 8/10 shots). The Eley Contact shot great initially but was hovering around an inch later on.

Now shimming.. that was a bad idea lol. I used two pieces of cardboard. It didn't help. But the scary thing is that after taking it off and putting the gun back to its previous torque settings, my zero changed (by about 3cm up)! I hope it didn't break my gun..I didn't get much chance to test it properly after that and I may have been tired too but the zero definitely changed..so maybe it bent something.

So in conclusion.. I dunno, I need to try more of the Gecco ammo, and perhaps other ammo from that brand. Why did the shop do great with Eley Sport yet for me it was quite mediocre apart from the traditionally amazing first magz. What's up with this..seriously... Eley Subsonic and CCI is potentially ok for hunting although still questionable IMO... perhaps hunting with round nosed might be better than HP if I can guarantee headshots more often than blown off ears. If Gecco works again, then I guess my rifle is simply super fussy with ammo as I've tried heaps of other brands without luck. I hope the shimming didn't break things.

Moving forward, I don't know what to do. It might be ok.. maybe some more tips to 'accurize' it would be good. How much to glass bed? Or other things? Glass bedding seems doable at home though.. Also, I may have started my torque setting games too high at 20lbs. Maybe 15lbs like Gwion suggested now. It seems borderline acceptable but in the end, is it too much to ask to maintain the first 1-2 mag accuracy? I mean, if I could do 0.5 inch with Eley Sport (last 2 times), Cheap Federal HP (first 2 times), or CCI subsonic HP (2 times ago) it would really be a kickass rifle. In a sense, if I use it for hunting then it should be perfect. Still..it would feel great to hit 10c or even 5c coins all day at the range and not worry about my crazy rifle



Link to Image:
http://metneia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/20161211-Target-1.jpg

Oh, I also tried Lapua Center-x and SK Rifle Match but they didn't do well.

[Gwion]

You are trying too many different things at once to get any good idea what is going on. Also, a few of those larger groups do look to have a definite influence from technique.

Bed the action properly and go from there. Glass bedding will cost you about $40 in materials.

[in2anity]

Today was interesting to say the least. I have the target with details and the order of my groups...

...

Now shimming.. that was a bad idea lol. I used two pieces of cardboard. It didn't help. But the scary thing is that after taking it off and putting the gun back to its previous torque settings, my zero changed (by about 3cm up)! I hope it didn't break my gun..I didn't get much chance to test it properly after that and I may have been tired too but the zero definitely changed..so maybe it bent something.

I doubt you would have damaged it - more likely the harmonics have just changed since re-assembly. That's essentially why light 22 sporter rifles are considered "finicky".

Link to Image:
http://metneia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/20161211-Target-1.jpg

Your link doesn't seem to be working bud - why not just embed the image in the thread?

[Tomek]

Your link doesn't seem to be working bud - why not just embed the image in the thread?

My cheap webspace is down it seems... I both embedded and linked to the same image.