Very Disappointed in my CZ 455. Is my 1st Rifle Faulty?

[Tomek]

Tomek,

You are new to shooting, so I am going to ask the same question I was asked.

I assume you are bench resting, so a front and rear bag.

Describe you seating position and the ritual you go through before you squeeze the trigger?

What are your feet doing? Hands? Are you sitting in the same position?

Is the rifle in the same position?

Is your head in the same position?

Are you squeezing the trigger with the same pressure and consistency? How is the grip on rifle Is it tight?

Do you hold the bag or the rifle with your non trigger hand..

I don't really pay much attention to my body position. I simply find a position where the crosshairs stop moving around. This usually involves a fair few seconds of adjusting my hand / the bag. I shoot with both and if I have a bag I get the gun lined up with my target and hold the stock with my hand to keep it in position. I then usually hold my breath while I gently pull the trigger and actually fire only if the crosshairs remain stable. I've tried firing while holding the rifle tight / lose but no difference really.

When things go right in the first few mags, it's beautiful .5 inch or below, with cheap fed, CCI subs or eley sport today. And this happens whether I'm prone or on the bench. But then after a few mags... ..crap.. I really don't know if it can be me as there's no way I'd be shooting half an inch this way and that way so much. I can see myself fire at the middle and the bullets land elsewhere. It just feels wrong. Even if I look at how much I shake (before I stabilise myself), it's well inside the spray patterns I get. Plus, my excellent groups have all been without a bag when I'm noticeably less stable.

I don't know if I should keep the bolts as is and wait till next time I go, or check the bedding again and look at the barrel screws. I wouldn't really know how tight/loose the barrel screws should be. I find it hard to believe though that my 1/6-1/8 turn screw adjustments can throw the rifle off completely. If I take it apart, I can post photos of the bedding and anything else taht would help.

I'm totally noob at this but if the gun fails when it warms up, then it could be anything, bedding, the barrel etc. as some slight expansion somewhere introduces an aberration taht throws my rounds off target. Some tooling mark in the barrel, headspace, bedding contact etc. It's certainly not my scope now that I bought a new one lol. Love the zoom on it

[Oldbloke]

Perhaps a local can meet him at the Springvale range?

[Tomek]

Perhaps a local can meet him at the Springvale range?

Haha, this is really getting out of hand aye? Yeah, I'd love that, I'll even pay my helper's range entry if someone can come and look over my rifle, bedding, action , or anything else:) It would be great to fix the rifle somehow or just confirm that I need a new!

[Wylie27]

certainly sounds like a bedding issue. I don't shoot off a restcor bag, I have bipod

I asked these questions just like I was asked when I first started.

Can you shim the stock? Add a spacer under the screws? Raise them up a mm..

[Tomek]

certainly sounds like a bedding issue. I don't shoot off a restcor bag, I have bipod

I asked these questions just like I was asked when I first started.

Can you shim the stock? Add a spacer under the screws? Raise them up a mm..

So do this inside between the stock and action?

[Gwion]

Put a couple of washers between the stock and the action at the action screws. This will effectively point bed it and you can test it like that. If it as I suspected from the start, your bolt will slide easier and your POI should be more consistent.

If this does improve then you stock should be fully glass bedded and will almost certainly sort it right out.

[Wylie27]

Tomek, yes between the action and the screws.

as gwion said if it improves things then a glad bedding should make it sweet.

Quick question what's the gap like between the barrel and the stock? I know you have mentioned it passes the business card test, have you tried this test after your groups go to crap?

[Tomek]

Tomek, yes between the action and the screws.

as gwion said if it improves things then a glad bedding should make it sweet.

Quick question what's the gap like between the barrel and the stock? I know you have mentioned it passes the business card test, have you tried this test after your groups go to crap?

Yeah I'll try these shimmis. And yes, today I did test the free floating barrel well into the crap shots. Still fully floated

[Oldbloke]

Two 6mm washers should do it.

[Tomek]

How about also trying to put some bedding shims like this guy?

http://forum.snipershide.info/showthread.php?t=234370

I may look into what this guy tried as well. Trouble is, I'll need to take the gun apart several times between shooting to try all this stuff. I gotta get a torque screw to make my bolts consistent / to spec.

[Oldbloke]

Not sure what you are talking about because he has tried a few things. Gwion can better advise I think. BUT this is what I did to my Brno to improve it. Placing pressure under the barrel at the nose is common and easy to do. May or may not work for you. I just used the image off that web site to demonstrate. I know this must be very frustrating for you but it is not uncommon. 22s can be tricky to get shooting. Also, suggest you stick to one discussion to resolve this issue. Gets confusing if there at two or three.

big-shims.JPG (67.27 KiB) Viewed 6236 times

[Tomek]

Not sure what you are talking about because he has tried a few things. Gwion can better advise I think. BUT this is what I did to my Brno to improve it. Placing pressure under the barrel at the nose is common and easy to do. May or may not work for you. I just used the image off that web site to demonstrate. I know this must be very frustrating for you but it is not uncommon. 22s can be tricky to get shooting. Also, suggest you stick to one discussion to resolve this issue. Gets confusing if there at two or three.

big-shims.JPG

I've got a bipod and proper rear sandbag in the mail, and will order a torque wrench soon I think. I was talking about what you mentioned yes. What common material could I use to test whether putting these bedding supports in would work? Cardboard, foam stickers you put under furniture, blu tac?

[Oldbloke]

Some thing firm. Cardboard, plastic, hard rubber.
My solution was a small piece of plastic pipe used in gardens. Cut and small piece removed to create a 1cm long U. Then placed under the barrel.

IMG_20161205_115512.jpg (132.5 KiB) Viewed 7624 times

[Gwion]

1/ change only one thing at a time each time you test.
2/ try the washers to space action from the stock first. Your action screws need to pass through these washers. This will give you only 2 points of contact, eliminating any potential influence of a possibly distorted action inletting. My theory here is that the inletting for your action is a bit dodgy and is causing the action to be put under stress when the screws are cinched down.
3/ wait for your torque driver and do as above with the screws at 20 inch pounds of torque. If my theory is on the mark, your bolt should be instantly easier to cycle.
4/ use only one kind of ammo; the best performer you have had so far. Shoot 5 round groups and shoot at least one box.
5/ if things haven't improved, try as Old Bloke suggests and shim the barrel channel to apply upward pressure to the barrel but not until you try the other test and report back on results. If things do improve with the washers, then we can point you to the info you need to properly bed the action, which will permanently solve your problem.

Try this first and report back then take it from there.
Remember to try ONE change at a time.

[Tomek]

One quick question about the bolts though:

When I set both screws to 20 pounds, should I go up by 5 pound increments on both at the same time or one at a time? (I assume I need to adjust the bolts like this to see how it plays out.

Thanks guys Yep I know to change one thing at a time. I will have my rear sandbag, bipod and torque torque driver soon so it will all make for a really nice setup. I'll try one thing at a time and will have the barrel shim materials ready at the range in case it's not fixing it.

Now that the shop will not take it back, I'm much more willing to play with all this stuff myself. Even doing my own glass bedding if that's what's required..

[Gwion]

No. Just leave them on 20 inch pounds for now and see if that shifting point of impact disappears. Fine tuning can wait until the major issue has been identified and addressed. Also remember that moving around on the rifle will change your POI.
Also, keep using the bags/rests for now. Don't introduce another variable by changing to a bipod just yet. Wait until you have tested through possible issues systematically.

[Tomek]

I'm stuck.. there is no room for a washer at the front action bolt. Not only would it be on an angle in the stock because of the way the wood is cut out, but the hole in the action is way too close to another part for a washer to be there and I have a really skinny washer. So.. I don't know what to do now :/ I can only put one washer in due to the structure of the rifle action and stock. Do I just try shimming the barrel? What else can I try on the weekend apart from properly adjusting my action bolts with my torque driver?

I also checked very carefully for rub / shiny marks in the stock and found none.

Starting to feel really hopeless lol. It's just gonna be new tool, new cost, new range fee over and over until I sell it it seems. Any tips on how to sell this rifle? How much could I get for it? I still have the box! But who's gonna buy it when I can't honestly say it's fine?

The worst thing is I can't return it as when they test it it will be perfect initially.

[rsj223]

I feel for you as I went through a similar thing (different rifle) you could try masking tape in the stock do it up and see what place presses it flat, could chuck up a pic could use small round tube cut into washes just talking out loud.
Someone would still buy it for the right price, would be a great cheap project...

[Oldbloke]

Any chance of a clear pic looking down at the inletting.?

Have you called the distributer, winchester, or written a letter explaining the problem? Perhaps they will help.

[Tomek]

You mean this?

I will contact them after my next range visit where I test the action bolts with my torque screw driver and perhaps shimming the barrel.

[Wylie27]

With the shim. An out of the box solution may be required... eg small piece of plastic with a hole drilled and shaped to fit the space etc

Don't lose hope.. this is part of the fun of shooting.. no mass produced rifle doesn't need a tweak... some just need more than others..

Is it the light or does there appear to be rubbing marks on the wood in several places?

[Tomek]

Its the light. I tried to show how its evenly smooth. One thing I tried yesterday was to tighten the bolts and then while vertical, loosen then slightly. I could fell the action moving away from the stock. I read that it shouldn't move at all but it just seemed like it being tightened or loosened from the stock.

I also looked at the barrel screws. They were very tight. I lubricated then and put them back in at 32lbs.

[Gwion]

32lbs is a lot for a 22lr.

If you can't use a washer you just need to find a way to lift that one point a little: like the suggestion above or even a folded piece of card board.

The inletting might look smooth but my thinking is that it may actually be slightly higher in the middle, so as you tighten up the screws, stress is being placed on the action. This will cause the bolt to seem tight and will effect the precision of your rifle.

Does the bolt still seem tight when the rifle is out of the stock?

[Tomek]

32lbs is a lot for a 22lr.

If you can't use a washer you just need to find a way to lift that one point a little: like the suggestion above or even a folded piece of card board.

The inletting might look smooth but my thinking is that it may actually be slightly higher in the middle, so as you tighten up the screws, dress is being placed on the action. This will cause the bolt to seem tight and will effect the precision of your rifle.

Does the bolt still seem tight when the rifle is out of the stock?

32 is tight on the barrel screws? According to the manual it should be 44 when dry but I lubricated it so it should be less. Should it be 30? It was definitely too tight originally then.

As for the bolt, it has become much easier to cycle now. Although I didn't check it when it's out of the stock. Not like the range but much smoother than before. The main issue is the accuracy now. I'd like to get the barrel screw torque right and try again to do the point bedding again tonight/tomorrow.

A friend of mine also suggested I try cleaning the barrel again if my accuracy starts off great and then goes crap again.

[happyhunter]

This thread is becoming "The Days of our Lives"

[deye243]

this is why I don't buy 2nd hand firearms 32lb bugger me that stock is stuffed now it is COMMONLY known that all settings (except for barrel threads)are in inch pounds

[Gwion]

Deye243, I think Tomek is just unfamiliar with the terms; or at least I hope so.... Assuming the torque driver he bought is in inch-pounds.

[deye243]

I haven't read all the thread but from what I have read I think he is expecting way to much out of a sporter factory 22

you can't spend sub $1000 and expect $2000+ performance .

and as for shims and all that just bed the thing and leave the actions screws at around 15 - 25 in-lb and if it will shoot

it will then . JMHO

[Gwion]

Yeah. That point has been made re high expectations but he has an issue of wandering POI after 15-20 rounds. The pics almost look double grouped. This seems to suggest a bedding issue which is easy fixed if it can be confirmed. The other possibility is that his barrel needs to be pressure bedded, which is also easily done.

Totally agree that the action has probably been screwed down too hard and that somewhere just either side of 20 inch pounds is where he should be looking for best performance.

He and others seem to shoot well enough with another rifle but not this one so we are assuming it's not just all his shooting.

His options are either try to identify the cause of wandering POI and correct it, or just tweak the actions screws a little and call it good enough for a hunting rifle.

[happyhunter]

The factory spec for the 455 is 25 in/lbs. I'm betting the *was* nothing wrong with the rifle before the owner starting tampering with it.