My strange CZ455 only good for the first 2-3 mags?

[Tomek]

It's me again with the troublesome new cz455. 200+ rounds yesterday and I'm going to try again today but I've noticed something very strange. I thought it was coincidence but 3 makes a trend.

Each of the 3 times I've been, the first 2 to 3 magazines shoot great. Dime sized groups Federal or cci. First magazine had a.0.4 inch group last time. After that accuracy degrades quickly and then all ammo sucks. Groups then range from 1.1 inch to 1.7 inch. I get the occasional <1 inch with the top 4 shots but most of the time i get 2 to 3 really wide shots. Also interestingly, all ammo sucks equally at this point from cheap federal to expensive elley match. My gf on the other hand, shows massive improvement shooting better ammo, correlated with price using the range rifle. With me, only the zero on the scope changes but not the grouping.

I didn't try playing with the two screws independently so I'll try that today but this rifle still feels faulty. Perhaps the moment it warms up a bit, some manufacturing flaw flares up and makes it inaccurate?

[Gwion]

Give it a good clean and then sight down the bore to see if there is any obvious machining marks in the rifling. Maybe a rough bore is getting fouled up rediculously quickly.

Really, it's hard to tell anything without being able to shoot and inspect the rifle. I quite like trouble shooting to improve accuracy.

[Wylie27]

Tomek,
Head on over to rimfire central...

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/sh ... ?_k=9c2bvq

[Gun-nut]

I'd just return it personally, sounds like you've gone through an awful lot of trouble. And with a new rifle, you shouldn't have to work on it to get it to shoot consistently. All manufacturers make lemons, just return it for another.

[pomemax]

Guy at the range yesterday with a cz455 brand new out of the box, scoped it he was shooting @ 50 m into a 10c about 20 rounds and he done it on 4 different targets .
Thats how you should be, think about returning it .
It was this guys First time at the range he was stoked saying best money he ever spent I thought about this thread should have taken a photo his target for you .

[Tomek]

Well I'm definitely taking it back now. There's a basic rifle service at the range. Theguy cleaned my rifle thoroughly, i put 10 rounds through it to foul it up and then he went through 8 different types from a bench (that i haven't tried) and he was surprised how inconsistent it was. So in total I've tried 17 ammo types haha. He didn't even charge me for the test because he was so intrigued. One Winchester t22 worked but it was a box from like 10 years ago.. Not something i can get now. Anyway, cz said on the site that a non varmint rifle should work well with 2 out of 10 ammo types and well with a further 3-4. I'll be returning it next week.

I'm liking the sport though so I'm seriously considering the anschutz 1710.. Or the one below it for 1k less.. I don't spend much on much so a 3k rifle for life sounds good. And i could even toy around with some competitions

[Oldbloke]

That's about what I get from my Brno m2. 15 to 18mm groups at 50 meters.
But a bit of tinkering with the bedding was needed. Mine likes pressure on the barrel near the tip of the fore end.

[Gwion]

Probably a good move, mate. I was just thinking you were trying to find a definite problem for the return. Can be handy because some places will insist nothing is wrong unless you can point it out.

[allan]

I'm liking the sport though so I'm seriously considering the anschutz 1710..

Something like this
https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=91683

If there's a better built or more accurate 22 sporter currently in production, I haven't found it yet!

Just be aware these are big, heavy rimfires. If a lot of off hand shooting is on the cards, a 1712 may be more suitable. the 64 actioned 1416 rifles are nice but not in the same league as a 54 sporter - And neither should they be when the price difference is factored in.

[in2anity]

Have you considered the Lithgow Crossover? $1000 and it'll shoot moa with quite a range of ammo.

[Tomek]

Have you considered the Lithgow Crossover? $1000 and it'll shoot moa with quite a range of ammo.

Is that the new Aussie brand? I've heard good things.. How would it compare to a Anschutz 1710 or 1712?

[scotty87]

Have you considered the Lithgow Crossover? $1000 and it'll shoot moa with quite a range of ammo.

Is that the new Aussie brand? I've heard good things.. How would it compare to a Anschutz 1710 or 1712?

For the love of all things holy just get the anschutz, or a Sako quad. If your not one to tinker to get things working I'd stick with the proven brands, the Lithgow from all reports is good but had teething issues with feeding from the mag.

Also ditch the no name scope for a vortex or redfield in the least, or a nice leoupold or nikon.

The sooner you get comfortable tinkering on your firearms the more enjoyable and rewarding your experience will be. If you don't know where to start, start on YouTube.

[Gwion]

Sako Quad, heavy Lilja barrel and target stock for range work, standard barrel and spotter stock for walking up bunnies. Zeiss HD5 scope... Should walk out at about the same price as the bare Anshutz!

[in2anity]

Have you considered the Lithgow Crossover? $1000 and it'll shoot moa with quite a range of ammo.

Is that the new Aussie brand? I've heard good things.. How would it compare to a Anschutz 1710 or 1712?

Yeah Australian made. They shoot phenomenally, but like the other guys said the factory mags aren't great in them (the action was apparently originally designed around a CZ magazine, not the plastic one they ship with), but on the bright side replacing the factory magazine with a CZ one fixes feeding issues in 90% of cases. Either that, or send your mag back and they'll replace it under warranty; I guess this is going to be annoying particularly if you're outside of Australia though... Indeed there is a degree of risk if you purchase the Lithy; but once it's up and running you'd be happy.

Comparing it to a Anschutz; well if you have the budget for an Anschutz then it's really a no-brainer! Those babies are some serious kit...

[happyhunter]

It's me again with the troublesome new cz455. 200+ rounds yesterday and I'm going to try again today but I've noticed something very strange. I thought it was coincidence but 3 makes a trend.

Each of the 3 times I've been, the first 2 to 3 magazines shoot great. Dime sized groups Federal or cci. First magazine had a.0.4 inch group last time. After that accuracy degrades quickly and then all ammo sucks. Groups then range from 1.1 inch to 1.7 inch. I get the occasional <1 inch with the top 4 shots but most of the time i get 2 to 3 really wide shots. Also interestingly, all ammo sucks equally at this point from cheap federal to expensive elley match. My gf on the other hand, shows massive improvement shooting better ammo, correlated with price using the range rifle. With me, only the zero on the scope changes but not the grouping.

I didn't try playing with the two screws independently so I'll try that today but this rifle still feels faulty. Perhaps the moment it warms up a bit, some manufacturing flaw flares up and makes it inaccurate?

What you are seeing is statistical variation.The largest group (1.7") is what the rifle/shooter combination is capable of. If you think buying an off the shelf rifle is going to shoot 0.5" all the time you are dreaming. You may read a lot of BS of forums about "my cheap hunting rifle shoots 1/2MOA bla bla.." but it's all bulls**t.

People who expect match grade performance from their off the shelf hunting rifle are dreaming. I bet I could take that CZ 455 and head shoot bunnies all day long with it, even with the 1.7" spread. Their is nothing wrong with that hunting rifle.

[brett1868]

@Happyhunter, I think it's more about the rifle not performing as guaranteed and being inconsistent rather then an outright accuracy problem. Tomek's got a fair point, the rifle should be consistent day to day with the same ammo and can't be trusted till it is. Nothing more frustrating than chasing a random inconsistency in anything, especially in a firearm. If I can get under 1" @ 100 for a hunting rifle I'm more then happy with that but for a target rifle it's unacceptable and I think Tomek is more looking to punch paper with this rifle so 1" probably isn't acceptable if the manufacturer has promised better.

[in2anity]

It's me again with the troublesome new cz455. 200+ rounds yesterday and I'm going to try again today but I've noticed something very strange. I thought it was coincidence but 3 makes a trend.

Each of the 3 times I've been, the first 2 to 3 magazines shoot great. Dime sized groups Federal or cci. First magazine had a.0.4 inch group last time. After that accuracy degrades quickly and then all ammo sucks. Groups then range from 1.1 inch to 1.7 inch. I get the occasional <1 inch with the top 4 shots but most of the time i get 2 to 3 really wide shots. Also interestingly, all ammo sucks equally at this point from cheap federal to expensive elley match. My gf on the other hand, shows massive improvement shooting better ammo, correlated with price using the range rifle. With me, only the zero on the scope changes but not the grouping.

I didn't try playing with the two screws independently so I'll try that today but this rifle still feels faulty. Perhaps the moment it warms up a bit, some manufacturing flaw flares up and makes it inaccurate?

What you are seeing is statistical variation.The largest group (1.7") is what the rifle/shooter combination is capable of. If you think buying an off the shelf rifle is going to shoot 0.5" all the time you are dreaming. You may read a lot of BS of forums about "my cheap hunting rifle shoots 1/2MOA bla bla.." but it's all bulls**t.

People who expect match grade performance from their off the shelf hunting rifle are dreaming. I bet I could take that CZ 455 and head shoot bunnies all day long with it, even with the 1.7" spread. Their is nothing wrong with that hunting rifle.

I must admit this thought did occur to me too. The problem with heresy is that it's often coupled to very small sample sizes. This inevitably leads to unrealistic expectations. No doubt some rifles shoot better than others, but if you somehow were able to determine the truly average capability of a specific model (across every rifle that was manufactured for that given model), you'd find it would be a hell of a lot worse than what someone bragged about on some forum.

Here's a couple of thoughts I didn't bring up, but now my cards are on the table, I may as well vocalise them (please note these are unsubstantiated, more a gut-feel from what I've read over the last couple of uears which is quite a lot):

1. I get the impression the 455 is not quite as accurate as the 452. That interchangeable barrel comes at the cost of a less-stable bed.
2. If I was to guess, the best average groups for the 455 are around 20mm @ 50m. A target rifle will be 12-13mm @ 50mm with target ammo. The 455 is no target rifle.
3. Factor in your cheap scope and shooting capabilities, and suddenly ~1.1" is not so unrealistic.

There is a possibility that replacing your 455 for another may improve these groups, but my guess is not by a hell of a lot. There is also the distinct possibility that replacing it won't equate to much difference at all.

In summary, I think perhaps your rifle is not a "shooter", but then again it would probably pass CZ QA. If you want truly sub moa groups, you are probably going to have to consider an inherently heavier target rifle.

[Wm.Traynor]

This is indeed a "strange" rifle, to borrow Tomek's expression.
In his first post he relates how the first few mags shoot great.
In his 27-11-16 post at 3:41 pm the rifle was cleaned thoroughly but failed to replicate Tomek's initial, "great" results.
I wonder what Tomek did to it to make it shoot "great" in the first place. Did cleaning at the range on 27/11 make it inconsistent? If cleaning made it inconsistent, what made it deteriorate after 2 or 3 mags?

A mystery, it is indeed

[Tomek]

I definitely don't get an average of 20mm. It's more around the 35mm mark. I have noticed that people are very reluctant to blame the rifle. I understand this sentiment although i had a really good shooter test is last time with many different rounds and he's never seen a cz like mine. 1 box of t22 ammo (from before their manufacturing changes) from many years ago out of 17 is unacceptable. That's not likely to be a statistical anomaly as all other ammo just goes all over the place. The shop and he both said my scope is fine as well.

[Tomek]

The shop said they'll take it to a private range and test it for me. That's good. Will see what happens but I'm nervous as i don't want to get stuck with it over a marginal pass. Anyway, good luck to them. I'll know on Friday!

[in2anity]

I'm nervous as i don't want to get stuck with it over a marginal pass

Yes this will be the worst outcome. BTW is there some sort of guarantee that CZ offers when it comes to accuracy? I mean, where do your expectations regarding average accuracy stem from?

[Wm.Traynor]

I have noticed that people are very reluctant to blame the rifle. I understand this sentiment although i had a really good shooter test is last time with many different rounds and he's never seen a cz like mine.............................
The shop and he both said my scope is fine as well.

I understand that the bedding has not been checked but how was the scope tested for that conclusion to have been reached? Was it a box test for instance?

[Tomek]

I checked the bedding of the barrel and it is floated and free of shiny rub marks. As for accuracy, you get people all over saying that 10c groupings are normal. And cz said 2 / 10 ammo should shoot well. A further 3 acceptably. Surely "well" wouldn't be > 1inch on any reasonable expectation.

Consumer law states that if it doesn't perform as one would expect ,I'm entitled to an exchange or refund. The kind of performance I'm getting is definitely not up to expectations.

In the end, if someone wants to buy my rifle for 600 go ahead. If it's really just a few tweaks away from perfect that should be a bargain. But i doubt the store would take me up on that offer..

[in2anity]

Surely "well" wouldn't be > 1inch on any reasonable expectation.

Yes provided the issue is with the rifle (and not the scope / shooter), it should average under 1" @ 50m with select ammo. BTW I presume you're testing using match ammo?

[allan]

Lots of good points raised in the above posts.
IME, entry/mid level 22 sporters which will shoot .5" consistently at 50 with proven lot numbers of target ammo. are the exception rather than the rule.
If a range rifle is required and you don't want to "tinker" unduly, then (funds permitting) you need to look at Anschutz, Sako, Cooper etc. It goes without saying that proven target ammo. and good optics are also part of the equation.
I'm fortunate in that I've had the opportunity to own some of the best production rim fires ever built over the years. Having said that, the Lithgow Arms LA101 is a LOT of gun for the money. I have an early and late model production version of this rifle - The new one (September 2016) is perhaps the best "out of the box" rim fire I have ever purchased !!!!

Here's a couple of examples of stock and customised rim fires sporters that will meet the most fastidious amateur range shooter's requirements.





I hope you get something sorted one way or the other re this CZ455 - Nothing more off-putting for a novice than an unsatisfactory rifle.

[Tomek]

Surely "well" wouldn't be > 1inch on any reasonable expectation.

Yes provided the issue is with the rifle (and not the scope / shooter), it should average under 1" @ 50m with select ammo. BTW I presume you're testing using match ammo?

Yep I've tried elley sport, club and match. All crap. Meanwhile, my gf's range rifle got < 0.5inch with match. Results are the same if we swap shooters.

Again, I've achieved <0.4 inch with the first mag using cci hps on the first mag and a little wider with cheap federal hp. Accuracy drops quickly after that and by the 4th mag nothing works well no matter what brand.

[Tomek]

Thanks Allan. I'm really ok getting the anschutz. It's for life so why not. Lithgow is a good thing to consider too it seems.

This experience has been very discouraging as no matter what i try or who shoots its no fun spraying targets. To top it all off the suggestions make it sound like i gotta disassemble the NEW rifle and spend lots of money fixing it just to get a chance for it to shoot straight. I've done all that and it's still no good

I wouldn't be surprised if it get stuck with the rifle after some further misfortune. I can always sell it i guess. Plenty of people think its fine lol

[Gwion]

Tomsk, just to be clear, the bedding you need to check is under and around the action. A floating barrel is no indication of good bedding. Maybe have another good look; unless your terminology is just misleading.

[Tomek]

Tomsk, just to be clear, the bedding you need to check is under and around the action. A floating barrel is no indication of good bedding. Maybe have another good look; unless your terminology is just misleading.

I didn't check that but the store would / should have when i brought it back the first time.

[scotty87]

Tomsk, just to be clear, the bedding you need to check is under and around the action. A floating barrel is no indication of good bedding. Maybe have another good look; unless your terminology is just misleading.

I didn't check that but the store would / should have when i brought it back the first time.

I wouldn't rely on that logic, it wouldn't hurt to pop the barrelled action out of the stock.