Show me your milsurps

[bigrich]

hey BR, noticed you said you have a m38. is it a husky or a reworked gustav ? what sort of groups do you get at 100 and what load do you use in it ?

[bladeracer]

hey BR, noticed you said you have a m38. is it a husky or a reworked gustav ? what sort of groups do you get at 100 and what load do you use in it ?

Husky with the turned-down bolt handle, and bridge mount.
I use the 95gn VMax and the 140gn SST.
The 95gn on 8gn of Trailboss is subsonic but good for MoA at 100m.
On 41.5gn of AR2206H the 95gn right around 3000fps and still holds MoA at 100m.
I haven't completed load development with the 140gn but 34-35gn of AR2206H is looking good.

[bigrich]

thanks BR, i got a m96 1909 gustav, looking at having a crack at millitary shoot this weekend. fitted a taller front sight and filed it down to give 2.7" high at 100.also narrowed it slightly to help my eyes. 49 yrs old and wearing glasses doesn't mix to well with old mauser millitary sights. not sure if modifying the sights is allowed, but at least i can shoot it well. used my favorite hunting ammo , norma 156gr vulkans and shot a 2." group at 100.with not much practice and my eyes, impressed the hell out of me. s&b fmj not so good.3.5" at 100. might get some sako hp target just for kicks to see what it will do.be a couple of weeks till i buy powder ,projectiles etc. will be loading for my mod 70 winchester hunter as well so i'll get lots of use out of 6.5 swede. you got me thinking about a m38 now. had one 30 years ago and could just about outshoot all my mates scoped rifles. your a bad influence BR, bad.

[bladeracer]

thanks BR, i got a m96 1909 gustav, looking at having a crack at millitary shoot this weekend. fitted a taller front sight and filed it down to give 2.7" high at 100.also narrowed it slightly to help my eyes. 49 yrs old and wearing glasses doesn't mix to well with old mauser millitary sights. not sure if modifying the sights is allowed, but at least i can shoot it well. used my favorite hunting ammo , norma 156gr vulkans and shot a 2." group at 100.with not much practice and my eyes, impressed the hell out of me. s&b fmj not so good.3.5" at 100. might get some sako hp target just for kicks to see what it will do.be a couple of weeks till i buy powder ,projectiles etc. will be loading for my mod 70 winchester hunter as well so i'll get lots of use out of 6.5 swede. you got me thinking about a m38 now. had one 30 years ago and could just about outshoot all my mates scoped rifles. your a bad influence BR, bad.

2" at 100m with military open sights sounds pretty damned good to me.
I have to remove the scope and see how well I can shoot mine with the open sights.
I bought a sporterised (modern stock, bridge mount, no sights, and bolt handle turned down) M96 Carl Gustav when I was a kid (Fuller Firearms - $159). It was amazingly accurate but I just didn't enjoy shooting it much, it didn't feel at all like a milsurp should. So I sold it and found an original M38 Carl Gustav with the straight bolt handle (also Fullers but $99) which I just loved
Now I have an M38 ($800 now!) that is drilled and tapped so I have the milsurp experience but can also throw a scope on for precision shooting. It's a heavy mongrel though

[bigrich]

nothing wrong with a bit of weight to make a rifle more pleasant to shoot. i actually like shooting my swede over my winchester. the stock fits me real well and the two stage trigger is very predictable. not that my winnie is a bad thing. my favorite "go to" rifle. some of my mates give me crap about the weight of my winchester when we are out stalking ( they have t3's ) i tell them to harden up, our grandfathers carried brens up and down mountains in ww2. i used a m38 with open sights as a hunting rifle 30 yrs ago, they can do the job i'll tell ya

[Growler]

All matching # Lee Enfield No1 Mk111 1916 and still shooting well

[Heckler303]

That looks like it needs a good clean. Warm soapy water on that stock perhaps?

[Growler]

That looks like it needs a good clean. Warm soapy water on that stock perhaps?

You're right, probably wouldn't hurt. Its looked like that since it was bought around 1991. Being matching numbers I've never wanted to touch anything apart from barrel and action. Obviously the top woodwork was replaced at some stage.

[bladeracer]

Mate that's bloody awesome! $1500 is great for an '03, even if its a rebuild. The originals are going for crazy amounts of money, and that's when you can find them. Keep us updated as I'd be very intrigued to see how it shoots. Congrats on the purchase.

$39 freight so $1639 all up including PtA.

The weather cleared enough for me to put ten rounds down the tube just now.

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I loaded ten Hornady 178gn BTHP's on 57gn of AR2209.
Lands are at 3.400" with this bullet so I dropped it back to 3.385".
Feeding is not great. The rounds sit low in the mag and the bolt rides over them. Poking the bullet down kicks the head up enough to feed the first, and then recoil usually knocks the following round into place. These bullets are very pointy and the third round down tends to catch under a lip at the front of the mag well. Also had two cases drop off the extractor. Hopefully just needs some shooting to settle down
Looking at around 3MoA at 100m today. A smaller aperture would help significantly I think, this is like looking through a porthole - it's 80-thou, I'll have to find somebody that can 3D-print me a 40-thou insert for it.
I'd love to scope it as I feel it has excellent potential.

[bladeracer]

I picked up another M1904/39 today.
I really want an original M1904 but they're hard to find, so I thought it'd be handy to grab another /39. Maybe I can find a 6.5x58mm barrel and just convert the /39 backwards for my own use

If anybody happens to stumble upon an M1904 Portuguese Mauser please let me know.
For reference, it looks a lot like an M98 with a straight bolt handle, except that the bolt handle is forward of the bridge, and the receiver bridge is split, like the Carcano. The M1904 should not have the recoil lug support bolt through the stock as that was done during the /39 conversion to 8x57mm, but by now I'm sure it's not unusual to find an M1904 that's had a /39 stock put on to replace a damaged stock.

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My first M1904/39 8x57mm

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Google image of the M1904/39 - note recoil lug support bolt

1904-portoguese-vergueiro-crest-copia.jpg (232.42 KiB) Viewed 7602 times

Google image of the unusual Mannlicher-style bolt and split bridge

[Heckler303]

Is the bolt on that rifle smooth? I hear that they have some difficulty opening and during camming.

[bladeracer]

Is the bolt on that rifle smooth? I hear that they have some difficulty opening and during camming.

I think they're smooth, haven't noticed any difficulty with either of them. Hoping to get a chance to test them both tomorrow alongside each other, as well as my Ankara since they're all 8x57mm. My first one is very accurate, but I think this new one may be a better collector piece as it's all matching numbers and has no prefix letter to the serial number. I'll have to do some research to determine the manufacture dates of both.

[No1Mk3]

G'day bladeracer,
most of DWM's records were lost in WW2, including the early 1900's. All that is known is that 100,000 rifles were produced and delivered to Portugal between 1904 and 1907, + 5000 in 7x57 for Brazil. The conversions, which were actually done in Portugal, were done ad hoc between 1940 and 1947 so checking serials will not help. A little trivia, they WERE going to convert them to 303 British! But they purchased a large lot of Mausers in 1937 and decided to stick with the Mauser cartridge. Cheers.

[bladeracer]

G'day bladeracer,
most of DWM's records were lost in WW2, including the early 1900's. All that is known is that 100,000 rifles were produced and delivered to Portugal between 1904 and 1907, + 5000 in 7x57 for Brazil. The conversions, which were actually done in Portugal, were done ad hoc between 1940 and 1947 so checking serials will not help. A little trivia, they WERE going to convert them to 303 British! But they purchased a large lot of Mausers in 1937 and decided to stick with the Mauser cartridge. Cheers.

Thanks No1Mk3
So no way of determining production date at all then?
I hadn't heard of a Brazilian Portuguese Mauser in 7x57mm. Is that an M1904 in 7x57mm or a different rifle entirely?
What would the serial numbers have to do with the /39 conversions? The serial numbers were not changed from the original production numbers surely? I doubt they would've done the conversion with any regard to serial numbers either, since their intention was to convert all of them anyway.
Mine are A9848 and 2465.

[No1Mk3]

G'day bladeracer,
best guess is DWM and Oberdorf's practice of numbering in 10000 lots, at a production estimate of roughly 2000 rifles per month. I'll let you work out the math. My 1904 is numbered 9738, and the 904/39 is B1207, so roughly 5th month of production, say mid 1904, and maybe 12th month of production for the /m39. that is about all I have been able to discover. There is a book on these models that could narrow that down but it is written in Portuguese. The Brazilian rifles are actually 1904 Vergueiro but chambered for the South Americans. From memory they were all Police rifles, and a large number were imported to the US. Cheers.

[bladeracer]

G'day bladeracer,
best guess is DWM and Oberdorf's practice of numbering in 10000 lots, at a production estimate of roughly 2000 rifles per month. I'll let you work out the math. My 1904 is numbered 9738, and the 904/39 is B1207, so roughly 5th month of production, say mid 1904, and maybe 12th month of production for the /m39. that is about all I have been able to discover. There is a book on these models that could narrow that down but it is written in Portuguese. The Brazilian rifles are actually 1904 Vergueiro but chambered for the South Americans. From memory they were all Police rifles, and a large number were imported to the US. Cheers.

Thanks again.
What is the title of this book? I may be interested in getting it anyway.

[No1Mk3]

G'day bladeracer,
Espingarda Mauser, M/904, M/904-39, M/937 E M/943, by Jaime Ferreira Regalada. If you can find it there is an essay on Portuguese firearms history by Major General Renato Pinto that had some info on these rifles also. I have a copy somewhere but again it is in Portuguese and I never got round to having it translated. Cheers.

[bladeracer]

G'day bladeracer,
Espingarda Mauser, M/904, M/904-39, M/937 E M/943, by Jaime Ferreira Regalada. If you can find it there is an essay on Portuguese firearms history by Major General Renato Pinto that had some info on these rifles also. I have a copy somewhere but again it is in Portuguese and I never got round to having it translated. Cheers.

Much appreciated, I'll start searching for those.

[bladeracer]

Just tried a lighter plinking load in the '03-A3.
Berry's 123gn .311" copper plated on 15gn of Trailboss.
At 50m 5rds into 33mm and 50mm groups.
The 50mm group was at a 19mm diamond of tape that I could barely see anyway, but was completely obscured by the front sight. The 33mm group was at a 50mm target, much easier to see.
I'll make up fifty rounds for more testing. I bought these to try in the .303/7.62x54R but they're too small for both, work well in the .30-06 though.

I also tried cast Lee .309" 150gn bullets with terrible results, most of them keyholed over an area about 600mm square at 50m.

[Wm.Traynor]

bladeracer,
You must have good eyes to see that tiny green thing at 57 yards

[bladeracer]

bladeracer,
You must have good eyes to see that tiny green thing at 57 yards

Not at all, it's mostly a matter of having a rough idea of where the mark is on the paper and just pointing in that general area
I do like the smaller aperture though, I think that helps a lot.
https://shootingsight.com/product/03a3-reduced-aperture/

[bladeracer]

I've had a neighbour in this week for some tips on reloading for his .30-06 ADL (one of the better poly stocks I've yet seen).
He has some Remington once-fired brass (150gn, 155gn and 180gn bullets) and grabbed some 180gn Interlock SP's and CCI No.200 LR primers.

He likes what the factory ammo does already, so I tried to work up something equivalent to that for him to start out with.
I decided AR2209 offers good case fill, good velocity and good pressure behind the 180gn bullet. Extrapolating from ADI data gave me a 56.0gn charge to give him the 2700fps specified by Remington for their 180gn CoreLokt load. He hasn't got any factory ammo that we can confirm their claimed velocity with. He'll be over tomorrow to test shoot them to see if they're good, then he can load the rest of his brass up and get back out in the bush. Before letting him shoot a load I designed though, I wanted to shoot them through my rifle just to ensure they're safe, so I loaded up ten of them, the only differences being that I used Remington 9-1/2 magnum primers and new unfired Sellier brass, and fired them through my M1903-A3. I put five reduced loads through it first to warm the barrel. I wanted to get velocities of the reduced loads but failed and had to move the chrono to get a shadow from the others. I missed the first reading but the velocities were 2666fps up to 2737fps. Mean was 2701.1fps.

At 50m, with the rear sight fully down, the full-power loads are about 55mm below PoA, and the reduced load is about 85mm lower than those. All were about about 12mm to the right, and there was no wind at all. I don't think I pulled a shot in the first group, so the low one might just be from the cold bore. I did pull one in the group alongside it unfortunately. But 3MoA seems pretty consistent which I'm happy about. We'll see what his scoped 700 can do with them tomorrow. I'm really impressed with the cheap Berry's bullet in particular.

After neck-sizing, the hotter loads have grown .003" (this might be more due to the fire-forming than the load itself), the reduced loads are unchanged.

[bladeracer]

I've had a neighbour in this week for some tips on reloading for his .30-06 ADL (one of the better poly stocks I've yet seen).
He has some Remington once-fired brass (150gn, 155gn and 180gn bullets) and grabbed some 180gn Interlock SP's and CCI No.200 LR primers.

He likes what the factory ammo does already, so I tried to work up something equivalent to that for him to start out with.
I decided AR2209 offers good case fill, good velocity and good pressure behind the 180gn bullet. Extrapolating from ADI data gave me a 56.0gn charge to give him the 2700fps specified by Remington for their 180gn CoreLokt load. He hasn't got any factory ammo that we can confirm their claimed velocity with. He'll be over tomorrow to test shoot them to see if they're good, then he can load the rest of his brass up and get back out in the bush.

We had some fun. I had him start off with some of my light loads to warm the bore. Unfortunately, his rifle doesn't like these much at all. At 100m four-rounds grouped about 90mm, but they were 150mm low and right from the full-power loads, not much good for anything except coup-de-gras at point-blank ranges. But he enjoyed shooting them, no hearing protection required and barely any recoil. I might have to make up a bunch of them, maybe 10gn to 18gn and see if we can find a load that'll drop directly below his full-power load so he can use it for small game.

Then he shot a four-round group of 50mm right on target. With his 7-power scope he was more than happy with the results of his first reloads. I had him come back to 180m as he doubts he'd take a shot further than that, just to see what the drop is. He found the scope pretty weak at that range, and couldn't find a comfortable position, so his shots opened up to about 150mm. Drop is only about 90mm though.

He doesn't shoot much .30-06 so I don't see him getting into reloading until he gets himself a .223, but I think he's hooked