Is 1 inch 'to spec' for a CZ?

[Tomek]

Hi,

The shop tested my rifle and said there's nothing wrong with it, qualifying that with "Meaning it's within spec of 1 inch, so if we send it back they'll say it's fine". I gave them CCI subsonic and Eley Sport, Club and Match ammo. They also used a target scope in place of my Athlon Neos 3-9x. My gf managed well under half an inch with Eley Match at the range for example but 1+ inch with my rifle.

So is that it? All those stories about dime/fingernail sized groupings, tack driver gun etc. are all meaningless because it shoots 1 inch groups? The guy himself boasted to me that he used to get small fingernail sized groupings with his CZ when I asked about Anschutz. So just with that, isn't the gun not performing according to a 'sample' and thus qualifying for a refund?

I'll see the targets tomorrow but if it's borderline and I can't get it returned, this is quite disappointing for what I heard about CZs... Really bad start to my shooting hobby too. I don't know if Consumer law can help me here but if not, I'll just have to sell the gun on if there are no consistent groupings around the .5-.7 inch mark.

[bladeracer]

Hi,

The shop tested my rifle and said there's nothing wrong with it, qualifying that with "Meaning it's within spec of 1 inch, so if we send it back they'll say it's fine". I gave them CCI subsonic and Eley Sport, Club and Match ammo. They also used a target scope in place of my Athlon Neos 3-9x. My gf managed well under half an inch with Eley Match at the range for example but 1+ inch with my rifle.

So is that it? All those stories about dime/fingernail sized groupings, tack driver gun etc. are all meaningless because it shoots 1 inch groups? The guy himself boasted to me that he used to get small fingernail sized groupings with his CZ when I asked about Anschutz. So just with that, isn't the gun not performing according to a 'sample' and thus qualifying for a refund?

I'll see the targets tomorrow but if it's borderline and I can't get it returned, this is quite disappointing for what I heard about CZs... Really bad start to my shooting hobby too. I don't know if Consumer law can help me here but if not, I'll just have to sell the gun on if there are no consistent groupings around the .5-.7 inch mark.

CZ being European it seems odd that they would mix units and measure groups in inches but range in meters. If it's shooting 1" at 50 meters, that's roughly 1.9MoA.

A dime is 0.7". If the rifle is capable of consistent 1" groups it's probably going to throw several 0.7" groups, or smaller if you shoot it enough, but it's still only a 1" rifle in my opinion - as in, you can guarantee at fifty meters that whatever you're shooting at you'll drop your bullets within a half-inch of your point of aim. But forum users are more likely to spruik their occasional 0.7" groups, which is going to give an unrealistic view of their rifle. For a hunting .22LR, 1" is heaps accurate enough in my opinion. If you can translate the same accuracy to field shooting, that'll head shoot rabbits to 50m, and take foxes out to 100m if you were willing to take such a shot.

To me, if you want to _consistently_ get smaller than 1" groups at 50 meters from a .22, you'd have to pay for a target rifle, and use expensive target ammo.
If I pay the price of very expensive ammo, I can get reasonably consistent 1" ten-round groups at 50 yards (2MoA) out of my $900 scoped Ruger American. But I don't want to be paying fifty-cents a shot or more to shoot a .22LR, that defeats the reasons I bought it. I can shoot centrefires for less money and more accurately out to longer ranges. Most ammo I've tried (25 types so far) shoots ten rounds consistently into around 50-60mm at 50m in my Ruger, which is just fine for me, at under fifteen-cents per shot.

To qualify for the Farmer Assist program through SSAA you only need to be able to put five into 80mm at 50 meters with a .22LR, centrefires are the same but shot at 100m.

I doubt you'd have any trouble selling a 2MoA .22LR rifle to any hunter or recreational shooter.

[Tomek]

I think my rifle is close to a CZ455 American though and CZ happily publishes comments like:

All shots in one hole at 25m
50yd 4 bullet holes touching is the norm
Shoots 1/2 inch at 50yd without difficulty

other Czs have similar reviews. Surely the official site reviews are a good "sample" to compare with. Double sized groupings are very different and being significantly different from the sample is grounds for a refund according to the law.

I appreciate that people post their best shots, however, neither I nor my gf could ever get a set of nice dime sized groups with it over 500 rounds. Meanwhile, we could do it with the range rifle. But, if that's how it is, how much could I get for this young rifle? Would anyone here be willing to buy it?

[bladeracer]

I think my rifle is close to a CZ455 American though and CZ happily publishes comments like:

All shots in one hole at 25m
50yd 4 bullet holes touching is the norm
Shoots 1/2 inch at 50yd without difficulty

other Czs have similar reviews. Surely the official site reviews are a good "sample" to compare with. Double sized groupings are very different and being significantly different from the sample is grounds for a refund according to the law.

I appreciate that people post their best shots, however, neither I nor my gf could ever get a set of nice dime sized groups with it over 500 rounds. Meanwhile, we could do it with the range rifle. But, if that's how it is, how much could I get for this young rifle? Would anyone here be willing to buy it?

I think anything coming from the manufacture has to be taken with large grains of salt. Are any forum members anywhere getting 0.5" groups at 50yds "without difficulty"? Is the range rifle the same model as yours?

My experience with consumer law, is don't waste your time. Sell it, buy a different one, go on with your life. If you can sort it out with CZ I would do that, but if not I wouldn't get tied down through consumer affairs.

[Tomek]

The comments are public comments on the CZ site. But I've seen many people on forums say it shoots dime sized groups all day (0.7inch) and less. I feel like I'm in a twilight zone with now 1 inch being all good lol. If that's the case, then I wish I knew ahead of time that I'd have to pay $20 per box of ammo just to get 1 inch groups. If it's looking crappy, I will ask them to send it back. And will need to buy a new rifle.

[bigfellascott]

It's disappointing when you buy something that doesn't meet expectations as they are spelt out in the brochure or ad so to speak. I bought a 2nd hand Sako after everyone raved on how good they shoot etc, turns out it didn't meet my expectations (my Howa's ran rings around it well and truly) anyway after many many attempts and trying to find diff load combos that would shoot in it and trying to get the crappy trigger to a usable state and still not getting it exactly how I wanted it I decided to sell it and got my money back so all good there I guess.

Anyway I'm sure with some more time and $$$ put into it I could have sorted it out but I just wasn't willing to waste anymore of either so my mate now owns it and with a bit of luck he can get it shooting how it should as it was a lovely little rifle in handling/appearance etc, any it's no longer my prob, I bought a Tikka with the $$ and it shoots ok for what it is and with some luck a few handloads will see it improve too but to be honest I'm not overly concerned as it's for rolling pigs and deer etc so small groups aren't something needed in that regard and I'm certain the factory ammo I'm running in it now would get the job done with good consistency anyway - and the other great thing about the Tikka was I could tune the trigger without any great fuss (just ground down the grub screw which allowed for some more adjustability in the trigger to make it lighter than it's lightest as standard so happy with that (took all of about 5mins to sort it too)

Anyway mate I guess if fair trading cant sort it you can always sell it but I would run it past them and see what if anything can be done about it first.

Pretty sure I've read other reports about the 455 being a bit ordinary in the accuracy stakes (something to do with the way the barrel attaches to the action if memory serves me correctly.

I believe the 452 and 453 were better rifles due to the way their barrels were attached but haven't handled any of them to see what the differences are so take what I said with a grain of salt.

Good luck

[scotty87]

You could always sell your .22lr barrel and buy a 17hmr barrel, then get your Annie target rifle in .22lr

[Tomek]

Thanks big fella

Yeah I will aim to sell it now. Luckily I kept the box as I hear that helps in resale value. If you're looking to buy a 455 you see online, pm me to make sure you're not getting mine haha. Although I will still look into getting a refund as I think it falls under the laws.

[bigfellascott]

Thanks big fella

Yeah I will aim to sell it now. Luckily I kept the box as I hear that helps in resale value. If you're looking to buy a 455 you see online, pm me to make sure you're not getting mine haha. Although I will still look into getting a refund as I think it falls under the laws.

Definitely work asking if it does or not and go from there.

[albat]

I have two 455's bought at the same time my sons shoots slightly better than mine with cci standard velocity which is the best non match ammo in 22lr ive found to get those groups you are talking about as said before you need to spend big ammo and buy an anchutz mine shoots half inch somtimes and 1 inch other times just depends on the day

[Heckler303]

All these people having so much trouble with their 'purdy' CZ copies of Brnos.


And here's me with my Norinco JW-15 shooting .40 inch groups all day at 40 yards with cheap federal and 0.20 with eley match. Once you do just a tiny bit of tweaking, it becomes an instant tack-driver.

[Gwion]

All these people having so much trouble with their 'purdy' CZ copies of Brnos.


And here's me with my Norinco JW-15 shooting .40 inch groups all day at 40 yards with cheap federal and 0.20 with eley match. Once you do just a tiny bit of tweaking, it becomes an instant tack-driver.

CZ is not a copy of a Brno, it is a Brno but the company changed names. Česká Zbrojovka of Brno, Czeck republic. The brand Brno is now reserved for their high end sporting models like break action game rifles, etc..

[Tomek]

All these people having so much trouble with their 'purdy' CZ copies of Brnos.


And here's me with my Norinco JW-15 shooting .40 inch groups all day at 40 yards with cheap federal and 0.20 with eley match. Once you do just a tiny bit of tweaking, it becomes an instant tack-driver.

What kind of simple tweaks and what was it like before them? The shop is offering me some 'accurizing' service which should improve the rifle. Although it's kind of over it at this point lol.

[Heckler303]

All these people having so much trouble with their 'purdy' CZ copies of Brnos.


And here's me with my Norinco JW-15 shooting .40 inch groups all day at 40 yards with cheap federal and 0.20 with eley match. Once you do just a tiny bit of tweaking, it becomes an instant tack-driver.

CZ is not a copy of a Brno, it is a Brno but the company changed names. Česká Zbrojovka of Brno, Czeck republic. The brand Brno is now reserved for their high end sporting models like break action game rifles, etc..

Thanks for the small piece of information. I was told previously that Brno was a separate company altogether.

[Heckler303]

All these people having so much trouble with their 'purdy' CZ copies of Brnos.


And here's me with my Norinco JW-15 shooting .40 inch groups all day at 40 yards with cheap federal and 0.20 with eley match. Once you do just a tiny bit of tweaking, it becomes an instant tack-driver.

What kind of simple tweaks and what was it like before them? The shop is offering me some 'accurizing' service which should improve the rifle. Although it's kind of over it at this point lol.

When I first got it, it was shooting about 1 to 1.3 inch groups with Remington Subsonics. I was a little dissapointed, but being fair, it was almost brand new and hadn't been broken in yet. Shooting it a lot had lubricated the barrel enough to get me tighter groups, but I had a few ideas that helped:

I made sure to fully float the barrel all the way, just before it touches the receiver (probably already done with your CZ). Next, bedding it so it raises the action up high, and keeps it tight. Speaking of tightness, the other thing I messed with was loosening the action screws 1/8th of a turn, firing 3 shots of cheap federal champion from the bench, then repeating the process until the groups got to their best. A bit of a finnicky process that took me a good 2 hours, but it was well worth it. With regards to the crown, I removed the thread protector, and circled the muzzle with 600 grit sandpaper to remove two high spots of some ridiculous .thou to have it even without damaging it. Then circling it with steel wool to smooth it up again.

There might be another area in which you may not have considered, what is the condition of the bolt? When I first got the JW, the finish wasn't too great, and the whole thing had this mystery Chinese packing grease. When I took the bolt apart, it was like opening the door to a shed filled with molasses. Buffed all the parts on a bench grinder with a polishing wheel, after I had used a wire brush wheel to smoothen up the roughness of the machining marks. Next, took a heavy brush with some autosol on it to twist inside the bolt body, then washed all the parts in a tub of acetone. Shook them up, then let them sit in the corner for a day or so, took them out, gave them a healthy spray of water dispersant then lubricated in every little spot I could find. Turns out it wasn't just for making it look nicer either, it sped up the locking time, and made it really smooth to work. Oh, and the bolt-face got a little treatment so cartridges sat and extracted better.

I'm getting a walnut stock for it under the tree this year, I'll do a posting of it. Hope any of this information can help.

[Tomek]

Thanks heckler. That is actually very useful stuff. I will ask the shop exactly what the accurizing does and how it compares to what you've done.

I'm torn between:

Doing more tweaking myself
Letting them accurize it
Getting rid of it and getting an Anschutz lol

Maybe all 3!

[Oldbloke]

Tomak,
Free floating the barrel is the most common way to help accuracy. (Yours is free floated) But some barrels , like the reverse, upward pressure. Try placing a small U shaped strip of cardboard or plastic between the barrel and forend about an inch from tbe end. I used a short piece of plastic tube about 1 cm long and 0.7mm thick. Roughly halved my groups. A lot of rifles come out of the like that. PM me if you are not clear. I will post a pic.

Yours should not need any work on the bolt except to ensire it is cleaned of any grease inside and out then just lightly lubricated. Good rinse and soak in a solvent like kero, dry and oil inside and out with a light oil.

Just look at the barrel crown, should be no burs and nice sharp edges.

I have never done it but adjusting the action screws as H 303 said is time tested.

Try another SCOPE.

You could bed it as others have mentioned but I would try all of the above options first.

22s are often a bit fussy and need a bit of tinkering, its normal. Well, thats my understanding.

[fenderstrat]

Not sure if this is helpful, but for me the best way to reduce my group sizes has been practice, practice practice. Its silly but true, I never thought my savage mkII 22 would shoot great, and I used to blame the rifle for any poor accuracy but after a few months I went from rarely getting 1" @ 50m to consistently doing about .7 at the same distance, with the same ammo (weirdly enough its winchester t22, does same or better than most of the top shelf stuff I tried).

I'd say give the rifle a chance, stop worrying and go shoot some more!

[bigfellascott]

Not sure if this is helpful, but for me the best way to reduce my group sizes has been practice, practice practice. Its silly but true, I never thought my savage mkII 22 would shoot great, and I used to blame the rifle for any poor accuracy but after a few months I went from rarely getting 1" @ 50m to consistently doing about .7 at the same distance, with the same ammo (weirdly enough its winchester t22, does same or better than most of the top shelf stuff I tried).

I'd say give the rifle a chance, stop worrying and go shoot some more!

Have you tried the CCI Standards in the Mk2? they generally shoot real well in them.

[Bills Shed]

This may sound a bit harsh but there is nothing wrong with a 1" group. Most rifles will out preform the shooter, we just do not accept the fact. Minute of fox head or rabbit is far bigger than 1" and so the rifle is more than capable of performing the task it was designed to do. If you have a sporter that is a tack driver, straight out of the box, more power to you. If you are shooting paper; you like to see tiny little groups, but in the field there is only one shot that counts, the first one. Does that shot go within 1/2" of the POA? If so, can you do it off hand? If not, the rifle is out performing you. If you still do not like the results on paper, go shoot some rabbits. They can not tell the difference between a .7 and a 1" group! Dead is dead.
Bill

[happyhunter]

All these people having so much trouble with their 'purdy' CZ copies of Brnos.


And here's me with my Norinco JW-15 shooting .40 inch groups all day at 40 yards with cheap federal and 0.20 with eley match. Once you do just a tiny bit of tweaking, it becomes an instant tack-driver.

Brno Model 1 is the ZKM 451, Model 2 is the ZKM 452. They have always been the same rifles except the factory moved location a long while back and the older Model1 and 2s are more collectable. I don't know if this is true, but my gun dealer told me that the older Brno1 and 2s used a better quality steel.

The 455 actually has a few improvements over the older model although the interchangeable barrel feature might compromise accuracy but then I've only owned Brnos and 452/3s so can't judge the 455.

You can still buy new 452s in the Scout version.

Your Norinco is actually a copy of the CZ ZKM 452. That is why they shoot so well for a cheap rifle.

[fenderstrat]

Not sure if this is helpful, but for me the best way to reduce my group sizes has been practice, practice practice. Its silly but true, I never thought my savage mkII 22 would shoot great, and I used to blame the rifle for any poor accuracy but after a few months I went from rarely getting 1" @ 50m to consistently doing about .7 at the same distance, with the same ammo (weirdly enough its winchester t22, does same or better than most of the top shelf stuff I tried).

I'd say give the rifle a chance, stop worrying and go shoot some more!

Have you tried the CCI Standards in the Mk2? they generally shoot real well in them.

yeah, and they also shoot quite good, but for some weird reason I always seem to have some problems with extracting them, just the standards, other cci stuff extracts just fine.

[bigfellascott]

Not sure if this is helpful, but for me the best way to reduce my group sizes has been practice, practice practice. Its silly but true, I never thought my savage mkII 22 would shoot great, and I used to blame the rifle for any poor accuracy but after a few months I went from rarely getting 1" @ 50m to consistently doing about .7 at the same distance, with the same ammo (weirdly enough its winchester t22, does same or better than most of the top shelf stuff I tried).

I'd say give the rifle a chance, stop worrying and go shoot some more!

Have you tried the CCI Standards in the Mk2? they generally shoot real well in them.

yeah, and they also shoot quite good, but for some weird reason I always seem to have some problems with extracting them, just the standards, other cci stuff extracts just fine.

That is weird mate mine has trouble with I think it's fed bulk pack stuff and extracting.