Something a bit smaller for a change...

[bladeracer]

Agreed. If only Howa offered 300blk... I just like the idea of a smaller case matching reduced loads (which I predominantly shoot); I'm not a big fan of case filler.

I'm a huge fan of reduced loads myself, loading every caliber subsonic, including 7.62x54R and 8x57mm - without any fillers. You don't need small case capacity to shoot reduced loads.

[in2anity]

Agreed. If only Howa offered 300blk... I just like the idea of a smaller case matching reduced loads (which I predominantly shoot); I'm not a big fan of case filler.

I'm a huge fan of reduced loads myself, loading every caliber subsonic, including 7.62x54R and 8x57mm - without any fillers. You don't need small case capacity to shoot reduced loads.

Yeah and I don't currently used fillers with my 30/30, and they shoot lead fine with a half-case of mid burn like 2207 or 2206H. But if i push lead too fast particularly over 2206, I start to get a few semi-burnt granules popping out. Now I know this can be to do with crimp-weight, but a bit of research and reading this particular article: http://www.reloadammo.com/rel-location.htm and also http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm made me question whether it's really a good idea to have empty space. In theory you could get some slight inconsistencies depending on how the powder is stacked inside the case. That's why Trail Boss sounds good in theory - due it's much lower density.

[bladeracer]

Yeah and I don't currently used fillers with my 30/30, and they shoot lead fine with a half-case of mid burn like 2207 or 2206H. But if i push lead too fast particularly over 2206, I start to get a few semi-burnt granules popping out. Now I know this can be to do with crimp-weight, but a bit of research and reading this particular article: http://www.reloadammo.com/rel-location.htm and also http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm made me question whether it's really a good idea to have empty space. In theory you could get some slight inconsistencies depending on how the powder is stacked inside the case. That's why Trail Boss sounds good in theory - due it's much lower density.

Fastest I've pushed lead is 2570fps out of the 8x57mm - way too fast for lead.
I never crimp, although I think I'll have to in the Carcano as the bullets tend to come loose in the mag.
Trailboss isn't just good in theory, it's awesome in practise too
Saves you money as well. If you're shooting light loads TB loads will be close to half of what you need of the standard powders for similar velocities. I use 30gn of AR2206H for 4400fps in the 204 and 8.5gn of TB for 2400fps. I need 15.8gn of AR2206H to get it down to 2400fps.

[happyhunter]

.

[in2anity]

Yeah and I don't currently used fillers with my 30/30, and they shoot lead fine with a half-case of mid burn like 2207 or 2206H. But if i push lead too fast particularly over 2206, I start to get a few semi-burnt granules popping out. Now I know this can be to do with crimp-weight, but a bit of research and reading this particular article: http://www.reloadammo.com/rel-location.htm and also http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm made me question whether it's really a good idea to have empty space. In theory you could get some slight inconsistencies depending on how the powder is stacked inside the case. That's why Trail Boss sounds good in theory - due it's much lower density.

Fastest I've pushed lead is 2570fps out of the 8x57mm - way too fast for lead.
I never crimp, although I think I'll have to in the Carcano as the bullets tend to come loose in the mag.
Trailboss isn't just good in theory, it's awesome in practise too
Saves you money as well. If you're shooting light loads TB loads will be close to half of what you need of the standard powders for similar velocities. I use 30gn of AR2206H for 4400fps in the 204 and 8.5gn of TB for 2400fps. I need 15.8gn of AR2206H to get it down to 2400fps.

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of TB - sure it's economical as hell, but it's dirty, and genuinely not as accurate as the traditional mid-burns (at least in my Marlin). I want to love it, but if you look at the data, it's just does not group like the traditional powders. Hence why I question the significance of a half-empty case - despite reading about the negatives, I've none of my own data to prove that it's truly a bad thing. Hence why I really have no argument against a Howa 308w vs the 7.62x39.

[bladeracer]

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of TB - sure it's economical as hell, but it's dirty, and genuinely not as accurate as the traditional mid-burns (at least in my Marlin). I want to love it, but if you look at the data, it's just does not group like the traditional powders. Hence why I question the significance of a half-empty case - despite reading about the negatives, I've none of my own data to prove that it's truly a bad thing. Hence why I really have no argument against a Howa 308w vs the 7.62x39.

I haven't noticed it being dirty or inaccurate, and I shoot it in everything I own.
Any reduced load tends to leave some soot around the case neck, but that's due to the lower pressure, not the powder.

[in2anity]

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of TB - sure it's economical as hell, but it's dirty, and genuinely not as accurate as the traditional mid-burns (at least in my Marlin). I want to love it, but if you look at the data, it's just does not group like the traditional powders. Hence why I question the significance of a half-empty case - despite reading about the negatives, I've none of my own data to prove that it's truly a bad thing. Hence why I really have no argument against a Howa 308w vs the 7.62x39.

I haven't noticed it being dirty or inaccurate, and I shoot it in everything I own.
Any reduced load tends to leave some soot around the case neck, but that's due to the lower pressure, not the powder.

Do you always use it with jacketed projectiles? Have you tried it with lead?

[bladeracer]

Do you always use it with jacketed projectiles? Have you tried it with lead?

Jacketed and lead, checked and unchecked.

[bladeracer]

I'd love to see some real-world experience of 7.62x39mm against .308 reduced loads.
Homer's groups aren't bad for 7.62x39mm so it seems to be capable of some degree of accuracy, at least from a non-military bolt-gun.
But can it compete head to head with a .308 loaded to similar ballistics?
The '39 shoots 0.312" 150gn bullets at around 2150fps, so you'd only be reducing the .308 loads by about 600fps or so.
ADI lists a Trailboss load for the .308 at 1400fps.
I'm still inclined toward .308 reduced loads as the better choice, even if you only shoot it at '39 levels, and especially if you want to shoot much further than a couple hundred meters.

[in2anity]

I'd love to see some real-world experience of 7.62x39mm against .308 reduced loads.
Homer's groups aren't bad for 7.62x39mm so it seems to be capable of some degree of accuracy, at least from a non-military bolt-gun.
But can it compete head to head with a .308 loaded to similar ballistics?
The '39 shoots 0.312" 150gn bullets at around 2150fps, so you'd only be reducing the .308 loads by about 600fps or so.
ADI lists a Trailboss load for the .308 at 1400fps.
I'm still inclined toward .308 reduced loads as the better choice, even if you only shoot it at '39 levels, and especially if you want to shoot much further than a couple hundred meters.

Yep I'm hearing you - perhaps if I had a walk-in safe and a bottomless pit of cash, I might consider something unique like the 7.62x39 or the 300blk, but that's not the case (mortgage/kids), so it's looking I'd have to go with the 308winnie all-rounder for now. In any case, the Howas definitely have my attention!

[bladeracer]

Yep I'm hearing you - perhaps if I had a walk-in safe and a bottomless pit of cash, I might consider something unique like the 7.62x39 or the 300blk, but that's not the case (mortgage/kids), so it's looking I'd have to go with the 308winnie all-rounder for now. In any case, the Howas definitely have my attention!

I'm hoping my next Ruger American will be the 450 Bushmaster

[in2anity]

I'm hoping my next Ruger American will be the 450 Bushmaster

Oh wow that thing is fat, damned quick too all things considered:O and it takes small rifle primers, dafuq! Now that's a unique cartridge! I'd love to get into straight-wall at some stage - brass life being the main motivation. My friend is looking at getting a 45-70 falling block - I can't wait to experiment with it!

[Homer]

Here you go straight from the horse's mouth:

(for Howa rifles)
7.62 x 39:
land to land = 0.308"
groove to groove = 0.312"
308 win:
land to land = 0.300"
groove to groove = 0.308"

What does this mean? In short you are ok to use .30cal projectiles with the only variance you’ll get will be velocity. No guarantee when it comes accuracy however.

G'Day Fella's,

If some of you had read the very first post of mine on this thread (the one with the link to the Nosler forum), you would have seen that this Howa Mini's, Bore and Groove dimensions.
They are as follows;
Bore Diameter= 0.300"
Groove Diameter= 0.310"
Twist rate= 1 in 9 1/2" (approximate).

Doh!
Homer

[in2anity]

Here you go straight from the horse's mouth:

(for Howa rifles)
7.62 x 39:
land to land = 0.308"
groove to groove = 0.312"
308 win:
land to land = 0.300"
groove to groove = 0.308"

What does this mean? In short you are ok to use .30cal projectiles with the only variance you’ll get will be velocity. No guarantee when it comes accuracy however.

G'Day Fella's,

If some of you had read the very first post of mine on this thread (the one with the link to the Nosler forum), you would have seen that this Howa Mini's, Bore and Groove dimensions.
They are as follows;
Bore Diameter= 0.300"
Groove Diameter= 0.310"
Twist rate= 1 in 9 1/2" (approximate).

Doh!
Homer

I think my land-to-land statement (of .308") is incorrect (even though the rep confirmed this); surely it'd have to be .300 land-to-land. He mustn't have understood my question (or perhaps i didn't understand his response). So the real question is, what's the official spec on the Howa groove-to-groove? Rep recently said .311", whereas you're claiming .310"? Have you slugged your rifle? Also how come the .309" shoots better ?

[bladeracer]

G'Day Fella's,

If some of you had read the very first post of mine on this thread (the one with the link to the Nosler forum), you would have seen that this Howa Mini's, Bore and Groove dimensions.
They are as follows;
Bore Diameter= 0.300"
Groove Diameter= 0.310"
Twist rate= 1 in 9 1/2" (approximate).

Doh!
Homer

I read the post, but I wasn't going to click out to another forum to read about a rifle I have limited interest in.
Good info though.
They've certainly mixed the dimensions up a bit to get 30-cal bullets to work in it.

[Homer]

G'Day Fella's,

I was away bush over the weekend, and chrono'ed a few loads in my Howa Mini, 7.62x39 rifle.

All the below handloads were charged by 27.0 grns of ADI AR-2207, CCI BR2 primers in Lapua cases.

Hornady Z-Max 123grn bullets (0.310"), averaged 2462fps.
Taipan 124grn HP bullets (0.3095"), averaged 2474fps.
Speer 130grn HP Moly coated bullets (0.308"), averaged 2431fps.
And
Wolf factory 122grn HP bullets, averaged 2401fps.

This was from the Howa Mini's 22" barrel, at a temperature of 27*C and 10 feet from the muzzle to the Oehler 35P's first screen.

I'm hopeful of being able to safely achieve 2500fps average, with at least one of these loads but I want to be able to maintain the great accuracy I have so far.

Doh!
Homer

[Homer]

FYI, Ive added some additional information and an image, which can be viewed via the original Nosler forum link (on page 1).

Doh!
Homer

[in2anity]

Homer did you get around to trying the other .308" projectiles? i.e. the ones on the right of your picture: https://forum.nosler.com/download/file. ... &mode=view

[Homer]

G'Day Fella's,

Yes I did In2anity and apart from around 100fps drop in velocity with the Speer 130grn HP, accuracy at 110 meters, was great!
I was able to put 5 shots into 21mm at 110meters, with three of these shots, almost thru the same hole.

Doh!
Homer

[in2anity]

G'Day Fella's,

Yes I did In2anity and apart from around 100fps drop in velocity with the Speer 130grn HP, accuracy at 110 meters, was great!
I was able to put 5 shots into 21mm at 110meters, with three of these shots, almost thru the same hole.

Doh!
Homer

That's very interesting Homer - confirms what the OSA rep told me. I'm not too concerned about velocity TBH; I can just extrapolate the BC from the actual trajectory. So long as they group is all that matters to me.

And the 30/30 and 170gr.30cal projectiles, did they group? Thanks.

[Homer]

And the 30/30 and 170gr.30cal projectiles, did they group? Thanks.

I haven't tried these bullets.
The only 0.308" bullets I've shot, were the Speer 130grn HP bullets.

Doh!
Homer