Something a bit smaller for a change...

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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jan 2017, 8:56 pm

in2anity wrote:Lol righto stat-man I didn't realize you were the almighty technicality judge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British - I say it varies between rifles. Anyway I'm not here to argue about 303s; we're side tracked - point is the 300 BO will shoot most 308 projectiles fine. I really want a nice 1:10 HB BO to plink lead with!!


Stat-man????

How did 300BLK come into a discussion about a Howa in 7.62x39mm?

Yes, 300BLK is .308", but you stated "This calibre in this exact rifle really interests me - you have an insane amount of options considering its a 30 cal and the smaller case size means it's ideal for reduced loads. Whats the twist rate on this exact rifle?" - regarding a Howa rifle in 7.62x39mm...or the numerous times I referred specifically to 7.62x39mm...
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 09 Jan 2017, 8:57 pm

bladeracer wrote:I just noticed :-)
Go back to photos in the first post and note the bullet diameters Homer is using - .309" and .310".


Well damn it can handle the 309! I wonder what the official diameter of that barrel is!
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jan 2017, 8:58 pm

in2anity wrote:Well damn it can handle the 309! I wonder what the official diameter of that barrel is!


Also note - it is chambered in 7.62x39mm not 300BLK.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 09 Jan 2017, 8:59 pm

bladeracer wrote:
in2anity wrote:Lol righto stat-man I didn't realize you were the almighty technicality judge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British - I say it varies between rifles. Anyway I'm not here to argue about 303s; we're side tracked - point is the 300 BO will shoot most 308 projectiles fine. I really want a nice 1:10 HB BO to plink lead with!!


Stat-man????

How did 300BLK come into a discussion about a Howa in 7.62x39mm?

Yes, 300BLK is .308", but you stated "This calibre in this exact rifle really interests me - you have an insane amount of options considering its a 30 cal and the smaller case size means it's ideal for reduced loads. Whats the twist rate on this exact rifle?" - regarding a Howa rifle in 7.62x39mm...or the numerous times I referred specifically to 7.62x39mm...


Sorry was confused between the two - my bad. The whole time I was imagining 300 BO for some reason.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jan 2017, 9:03 pm

in2anity wrote:Sorry was confused between the two - my bad. The whole time I was imagining 300 BO for some reason.


No worries, at least your side of the discussion makes sense in that light :-)
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 09 Jan 2017, 9:20 pm

bladeracer wrote:
in2anity wrote:Sorry was confused between the two - my bad. The whole time I was imagining 300 BO for some reason.


No worries, at least your side of the discussion makes sense in that light :-)


Yeah I read OP as 7.62x35 (aka 300 BO) instead of x39. That changes things completely; I'm not nearly as interested in the rifle now :( I need to go back and strike through my posts as a disclaimer. Sorry Homer, ignore my rambling. Although interestingly it did stabilize a 309"... maybe strangely there is some truth to running 308s through it.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jan 2017, 9:26 pm

in2anity wrote:Yeah I read OP as 7.62x35 (aka 300 BO) instead of x39. That changes things completely; I'm not nearly as interested in the rifle now :( I need to go back and strike through my posts as a disclaimer. Sorry Homer, ignore my rambling. Although interestingly it did stabilize a 309"... maybe strangely there is some truth to running 308s through it.



I read that Ruger did the Mini-30 with a tighter bore to allow Americans to use .308" bullets, and that was a fair while ago.
I'd also be interested to know if the Howa is using a tighter-than-spec bore diameter for similar reasons.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 13 Jan 2017, 7:33 am

Here you go straight from the horse's mouth:

(for Howa rifles)
7.62 x 39:
land to land = 0.300
groove to groove = 0.311"
308 win:
land to land = 0.300"
groove to groove = 0.308"

What does this mean? In short you are ok to use .30cal projectiles with the only variance you’ll get will be velocity. No guarantee when it comes accuracy however.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Jan 2017, 7:59 am

IMHO. You would be better off buying a 308, or other more common calibre and down load. Less common calibres are often problematic when it comes to availability and cost.

Popular calibres are popular for a reason.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 13 Jan 2017, 8:28 am

Oldbloke wrote:IMHO. You would be better off buying a 308, or other more common calibre and down load. Less common calibres are often problematic when it comes to availability and cost.

Popular calibres are popular for a reason.


Agreed. If only Howa offered 300blk... I just like the idea of a smaller case matching reduced loads (which I predominantly shoot); I'm not a big fan of case filler.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by Gwion » 13 Jan 2017, 8:41 am

Get a Howa mini and have it rebarrelled to 300blk.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 13 Jan 2017, 8:52 am

Gwion wrote:Get a Howa mini and have it rebarrelled to 300blk.


Would you need to have the action/magazine altered to match 300blk? What would be the best calibre + Howa gun to start with if you wanted to do this?
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by happyhunter » 13 Jan 2017, 8:53 am

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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 13 Jan 2017, 8:57 am

happyhunter wrote:Ammo for the 7.62x39 is available in bulk and really cheap. A big plus for that rifle.


How accurate is surp ball though? I was under the impression that it's pretty inconsistent for target-work
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 13 Jan 2017, 9:01 am

bentaz wrote:Buy a ruger ranch in 300bk


Interesting; how do you think a 16" 1:7 would gel with a 165gn gas-checked pill?
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by Gwion » 13 Jan 2017, 9:05 am

Isn't the 300blk just a 30cal bullet in a 223rem case???
Look up case specs and the internal mag length of the Howa Mini in 223. I'd imagine it's just a straight rebarrelling job as long as the mag is long enough to house the longest round you want to load.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_AAC_Blackout

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington

Edit: same COAL for both rounds so the 223 mag should be fine.
Rebarrel to a 308cal barrel and have it chambered in 300blk. Depending on barrel cost, should be between $500-800 to do the conversion. My smith is quick, good and affordable. Cost me about $350 to have action trued, barrel chambered and fitted. Not including barrel cost. Usually does work for me within the week he receives my rifle. He accepts postal deliveries so if your keen to do it i can give you his details. He has rebarrelled two rifles for me and both shoot consistent sub 0.5MOA with properly tuned loads. He has also done various other small jobs for me with great results.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 13 Jan 2017, 10:24 am

Gwion wrote:Isn't the 300blk just a 30cal bullet in a 223rem case???
Look up case specs and the internal mag length of the Howa Mini in 223. I'd imagine it's just a straight rebarrelling job as long as the mag is long enough to house the longest round you want to load.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_AAC_Blackout

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington

Edit: same COAL for both rounds so the 223 mag should be fine.
Rebarrel to a 308cal barrel and have it chambered in 300blk. Depending on barrel cost, should be between $500-800 to do the conversion. My smith is quick, good and affordable. Cost me about $350 to have action trued, barrel chambered and fitted. Not including barrel cost. Usually does work for me within the week he receives my rifle. He accepts postal deliveries so if your keen to do it i can give you his details. He has rebarrelled two rifles for me and both shoot consistent sub 0.5MOA with properly tuned loads. He has also done various other small jobs for me with great results.


Well there you go - did not know this. Thanks man :drinks: I need to think seriously about why I shouldn't just get a 308win though - it's a lot more scaleable.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jan 2017, 2:22 pm

in2anity wrote:Here you go straight from the horse's mouth:

(for Howa rifles)
7.62 x 39:
land to land = 0.308"
groove to groove = 0.312"
308 win:
land to land = 0.300"
groove to groove = 0.308"

What does this mean? In short you are ok to use .30cal projectiles with the only variance you’ll get will be velocity. No guarantee when it comes accuracy however.


Certainly .308" bullets will shoot okay in the .310-.312" bore.
With my Carcano 6.5mm (.268" bore), 32gn of AR2206H gave me 700fps with the .264" 95gn VMax. But simply paper-patching a .243" 75gn Hornady HP up to .270" (or putting the .243" bullet inside half of a .17WSM case) gets 1990fps from 30gns. I don't have velocity figures, but I have a similar problem shooting .308" bullets in the .303 and 7.62x54R.

However, the .264" Hornady 160gn RN with it's immensely long bearing surface does obturate enough to seal the bore in the .268" bore. I'm hoping I can use similar .308" bullets with success in .303 and 7.62x54R but haven't tried them yet.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jan 2017, 2:24 pm

in2anity wrote:Agreed. If only Howa offered 300blk... I just like the idea of a smaller case matching reduced loads (which I predominantly shoot); I'm not a big fan of case filler.



I'm a huge fan of reduced loads myself, loading every caliber subsonic, including 7.62x54R and 8x57mm - without any fillers. You don't need small case capacity to shoot reduced loads.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 13 Jan 2017, 3:18 pm

bladeracer wrote:
in2anity wrote:Agreed. If only Howa offered 300blk... I just like the idea of a smaller case matching reduced loads (which I predominantly shoot); I'm not a big fan of case filler.



I'm a huge fan of reduced loads myself, loading every caliber subsonic, including 7.62x54R and 8x57mm - without any fillers. You don't need small case capacity to shoot reduced loads.


Yeah and I don't currently used fillers with my 30/30, and they shoot lead fine with a half-case of mid burn like 2207 or 2206H. But if i push lead too fast particularly over 2206, I start to get a few semi-burnt granules popping out. Now I know this can be to do with crimp-weight, but a bit of research and reading this particular article: http://www.reloadammo.com/rel-location.htm and also http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm made me question whether it's really a good idea to have empty space. In theory you could get some slight inconsistencies depending on how the powder is stacked inside the case. That's why Trail Boss sounds good in theory - due it's much lower density.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jan 2017, 3:40 pm

in2anity wrote:Yeah and I don't currently used fillers with my 30/30, and they shoot lead fine with a half-case of mid burn like 2207 or 2206H. But if i push lead too fast particularly over 2206, I start to get a few semi-burnt granules popping out. Now I know this can be to do with crimp-weight, but a bit of research and reading this particular article: http://www.reloadammo.com/rel-location.htm and also http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm made me question whether it's really a good idea to have empty space. In theory you could get some slight inconsistencies depending on how the powder is stacked inside the case. That's why Trail Boss sounds good in theory - due it's much lower density.



Fastest I've pushed lead is 2570fps out of the 8x57mm - way too fast for lead.
I never crimp, although I think I'll have to in the Carcano as the bullets tend to come loose in the mag.
Trailboss isn't just good in theory, it's awesome in practise too :-)
Saves you money as well. If you're shooting light loads TB loads will be close to half of what you need of the standard powders for similar velocities. I use 30gn of AR2206H for 4400fps in the 204 and 8.5gn of TB for 2400fps. I need 15.8gn of AR2206H to get it down to 2400fps.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by happyhunter » 13 Jan 2017, 4:06 pm

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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 13 Jan 2017, 5:01 pm

bladeracer wrote:
in2anity wrote:Yeah and I don't currently used fillers with my 30/30, and they shoot lead fine with a half-case of mid burn like 2207 or 2206H. But if i push lead too fast particularly over 2206, I start to get a few semi-burnt granules popping out. Now I know this can be to do with crimp-weight, but a bit of research and reading this particular article: http://www.reloadammo.com/rel-location.htm and also http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm made me question whether it's really a good idea to have empty space. In theory you could get some slight inconsistencies depending on how the powder is stacked inside the case. That's why Trail Boss sounds good in theory - due it's much lower density.



Fastest I've pushed lead is 2570fps out of the 8x57mm - way too fast for lead.
I never crimp, although I think I'll have to in the Carcano as the bullets tend to come loose in the mag.
Trailboss isn't just good in theory, it's awesome in practise too :-)
Saves you money as well. If you're shooting light loads TB loads will be close to half of what you need of the standard powders for similar velocities. I use 30gn of AR2206H for 4400fps in the 204 and 8.5gn of TB for 2400fps. I need 15.8gn of AR2206H to get it down to 2400fps.


Yeah I'm not a huge fan of TB - sure it's economical as hell, but it's dirty, and genuinely not as accurate as the traditional mid-burns (at least in my Marlin). I want to love it, but if you look at the data, it's just does not group like the traditional powders. Hence why I question the significance of a half-empty case - despite reading about the negatives, I've none of my own data to prove that it's truly a bad thing. Hence why I really have no argument against a Howa 308w vs the 7.62x39.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jan 2017, 6:06 pm

in2anity wrote:Yeah I'm not a huge fan of TB - sure it's economical as hell, but it's dirty, and genuinely not as accurate as the traditional mid-burns (at least in my Marlin). I want to love it, but if you look at the data, it's just does not group like the traditional powders. Hence why I question the significance of a half-empty case - despite reading about the negatives, I've none of my own data to prove that it's truly a bad thing. Hence why I really have no argument against a Howa 308w vs the 7.62x39.



I haven't noticed it being dirty or inaccurate, and I shoot it in everything I own.
Any reduced load tends to leave some soot around the case neck, but that's due to the lower pressure, not the powder.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 14 Jan 2017, 1:30 pm

bladeracer wrote:
in2anity wrote:Yeah I'm not a huge fan of TB - sure it's economical as hell, but it's dirty, and genuinely not as accurate as the traditional mid-burns (at least in my Marlin). I want to love it, but if you look at the data, it's just does not group like the traditional powders. Hence why I question the significance of a half-empty case - despite reading about the negatives, I've none of my own data to prove that it's truly a bad thing. Hence why I really have no argument against a Howa 308w vs the 7.62x39.



I haven't noticed it being dirty or inaccurate, and I shoot it in everything I own.
Any reduced load tends to leave some soot around the case neck, but that's due to the lower pressure, not the powder.


Do you always use it with jacketed projectiles? Have you tried it with lead?
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by bladeracer » 14 Jan 2017, 5:58 pm

in2anity wrote:Do you always use it with jacketed projectiles? Have you tried it with lead?



Jacketed and lead, checked and unchecked.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by bladeracer » 14 Jan 2017, 6:23 pm

I'd love to see some real-world experience of 7.62x39mm against .308 reduced loads.
Homer's groups aren't bad for 7.62x39mm so it seems to be capable of some degree of accuracy, at least from a non-military bolt-gun.
But can it compete head to head with a .308 loaded to similar ballistics?
The '39 shoots 0.312" 150gn bullets at around 2150fps, so you'd only be reducing the .308 loads by about 600fps or so.
ADI lists a Trailboss load for the .308 at 1400fps.
I'm still inclined toward .308 reduced loads as the better choice, even if you only shoot it at '39 levels, and especially if you want to shoot much further than a couple hundred meters.
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 14 Jan 2017, 7:40 pm

bladeracer wrote:I'd love to see some real-world experience of 7.62x39mm against .308 reduced loads.
Homer's groups aren't bad for 7.62x39mm so it seems to be capable of some degree of accuracy, at least from a non-military bolt-gun.
But can it compete head to head with a .308 loaded to similar ballistics?
The '39 shoots 0.312" 150gn bullets at around 2150fps, so you'd only be reducing the .308 loads by about 600fps or so.
ADI lists a Trailboss load for the .308 at 1400fps.
I'm still inclined toward .308 reduced loads as the better choice, even if you only shoot it at '39 levels, and especially if you want to shoot much further than a couple hundred meters.


Yep I'm hearing you - perhaps if I had a walk-in safe and a bottomless pit of cash, I might consider something unique like the 7.62x39 or the 300blk, but that's not the case (mortgage/kids), so it's looking I'd have to go with the 308winnie all-rounder for now. In any case, the Howas definitely have my attention!
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by bladeracer » 14 Jan 2017, 8:02 pm

in2anity wrote:Yep I'm hearing you - perhaps if I had a walk-in safe and a bottomless pit of cash, I might consider something unique like the 7.62x39 or the 300blk, but that's not the case (mortgage/kids), so it's looking I'd have to go with the 308winnie all-rounder for now. In any case, the Howas definitely have my attention!



I'm hoping my next Ruger American will be the 450 Bushmaster :-)
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Re: Something a bit smaller for a change...

Post by in2anity » 15 Jan 2017, 8:50 am

bladeracer wrote:I'm hoping my next Ruger American will be the 450 Bushmaster :-)


Oh wow that thing is fat, damned quick too all things considered:O and it takes small rifle primers, dafuq! Now that's a unique cartridge! I'd love to get into straight-wall at some stage - brass life being the main motivation. My friend is looking at getting a 45-70 falling block - I can't wait to experiment with it!
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