.222 v .223

[bigfellascott]

It doesn't matter how fast or how heavy the projectile is if you don't put it in the right spot - Period! Getting the shot placement right is way more important than how fast a projectile is going or how heavy it is, seen plenty of small/medium size animals get shot with all sorts of big CF cals that just kept going only to need a follow up shot to kill them because people make the ASSumption that because they used a cannon it would kill the animal no matter where it's shot, clearly they were wrong.

[bigfellascott]

Just get a 204 - it kills very well way out yonder

[bladeracer]

It doesn't matter how fast or how heavy the projectile is if you don't put it in the right spot - Period!

Of course, that's a given, but not relevant to a discussion of the differences between two specific cartridges.

[bigfellascott]

It doesn't matter how fast or how heavy the projectile is if you don't put it in the right spot - Period!

Of course, that's a given, but not relevant to a discussion of the differences between two specific cartridges.

Yeah it is the point mate, does matter if one shoots heavier projectiles at warp speed if you don't put em in the right place in the first place, as I said early seen people use 375HH to shoot roos and not place the shot well and the animal runs off wounded because they do what everyone seems to do and just assume because they use a heavy projectile they can shoot things anywhere and they will fall over which clearly isn't the case all too often, shot placement is the important part to get a good humane kill on anything medium/large, small things like rabbits doesn't matter much when shot with something heavy or light depending on how hard the light pill is driven and whether its a fragile projectile or not.

Speaking of projectiles no one has mentioned what would be the best to get the job done using a 222 or 223, some of these Heavy projies that get run in 223's are more for long range target shooting so not really designed for hunting so to speak (not all of them are target orientated but I think a lot more are designed for that purpose more so than hunting purposes - you could get away with using them if the shot placement is good (ie head shots), haven't seen too much get up and run when whacked in the scone right.

[bladeracer]

Yeah it is the point mate, does matter if one shoots heavier projectiles at warp speed if you don't put em in the right place in the first place, as I said early seen people use 375HH to shoot roos and not place the shot well and the animal runs off wounded because they do what everyone seems to do and just assume because they use a heavy projectile they can shoot things anywhere and they will fall over which clearly isn't the case all too often, shot placement is the important part to get a good humane kill on anything medium/large, small things like rabbits doesn't matter much when shot with something heavy or light depending on how hard the light pill is driven and whether its a fragile projectile or not.

Speaking of projectiles no one has mentioned what would be the best to get the job done using a 222 or 223, some of these Heavy projies that get run in 223's are more for long range target shooting so not really designed for hunting so to speak (not all of them are target orientated but I think a lot more are designed for that purpose more so than hunting purposes - you could get away with using them if the shot placement is good (ie head shots), haven't seen too much get up and run when whacked in the scone right.

If one of them had a significant accuracy advantage I would agree, that would be relevant in choosing between the two. Since the two cartridges in question are pretty evenly matched accuracy-wise, shot placement is not relevant because we can assume that both are capable of placing the bullets with similar accuracy. Difference in recoil is insignificant so we can also assume that one shooter can probably shoot both equally well.

The differences only become apparent when you start asking the cartridge to cleanly knock down bigger targets, then the .223's higher energy potential is significant. Hunting is not at all about trying to kill the biggest beast with the smallest cartridge, that's just stupidity. Hunting is about taking a life, so it is worth having sufficient power plus a decent margin to ensure humane kills and less risk of wounding. Even world champion class shooters can't place every bullet exactly where they want it every time.

[bigfellascott]

If one of them had a significant accuracy advantage I would agree, that would be relevant in choosing between the two. Since the two cartridges in question are pretty evenly matched accuracy-wise, shot placement is not relevant because we can assume that both are capable of placing the bullets with similar accuracy. Difference in recoil is insignificant so we can also assume that one shooter can probably shoot both equally well.

The differences only become apparent when you start asking the cartridge to cleanly knock down bigger targets, then the .223's higher energy potential is significant. Hunting is not at all about trying to kill the biggest beast with the smallest cartridge, that's just stupidity. Hunting is about taking a life, so it is worth having sufficient power plus a decent margin to ensure humane kills and less risk of wounding. Even world champion class shooters can't place every bullet exactly where they want it every time.[/quote]

We should all just buy 50cals and be done with it then hey mate, nothing should get up from being hit with one of them no matter if you hit em in the big toe they should still die hey.

[happyhunter]

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[bigfellascott]

Where on the body would you shoot a pig at say 200m with a 223 compared to say a 222 regardless of projectile weight? Would you go say for a heart/lung shot with the 223 because its shooting a heavier projectile or would you go a head shot for argument sake?

Which would kill the pig with more certainty do you think - the head shot pig using a 222 or the heart/lung shot with the 223 using heavier projectiles?

[albat]

Must be beer "o"clock on here my thumbs aching from tabbing down , love your work guys

[bigfellascott]

Must be beer "o"clock on here my thumbs aching from tabbing down , love your work guys

Good night

[bladeracer]

160 ft/lbs is not that much and it's mute anyway because at 300 yards neither is going to be reliable on medium game, and that's the point. Mild cartridges like 222 and 223 are a poor choice for heavier game no matter how they are marketed. The difference in terminal energy is minor inside the range the GMX will mushroom properly and continues to decrease right to the distance most game is taken, ie. about 50 yards.

Personally, I'll keep my 222 for foxes and if I need more range I have a 204 for that, which has it all over the 223.. hahaha

I agree with all your points here.

[deanp100]

The 223 outdoes a 222. A 22/250 outdoes the 223. A swift outdoes the 22/250. The 243 outdoes the 22/250. A 25/06 outdoes the 243. There is always something bigger but not necessarily better suited. If they burn more powder they produce more energy. Simple really. Do you need a 6 cyl if the 4 cyl does the job nicely. The 222 has been a cool gun for a long long time and continues to be one. Factor coolness into your equation.

[Gwion]

So best plan seems to be to keep my .222 and when i want to shoot heavier bullets at larger game........... Use a bloody .243

Sounds like a sound plan to me!

[bigfellascott]

Why not just run the heavy projectile for everything then if it's the better way to go, why bother with the lighter projectiles, can't see a need for the lighter ones if the heavier ones kill better, save ya self a lot of rooting around I'd reckon.

[Gwion]

Why not just run the heavy projectile for everything then if it's the better way to go, why bother with the lighter projectiles, can't see a need for the lighter ones if the heavier ones kill better, save ya self a lot of rooting around I'd reckon.

Yep..... I agree.
If you think you may need the heavier bullet on a trip, just zero for that and K.I.S.S.. If you are vehicle based, take two rifles. Walking; just take one and one load that will adequately cover all eventualities.

I have played with using two different loads that shoot on the same windage and it is far more hassle than it is worth. Judging range in the field leaves you second guessing enough without adding the variable of different loads into the equation.

[Oldbloke]

So best plan seems to be to keep my .222 and when i want to shoot heavier bullets at larger game........... Use a bloody .243

That's what I would do. I would take my 30 06.

[albat]

just like a firefight game plan usually goes out the window when stuff suddenly appears in front of you

[bigfellascott]

Why not just run the heavy projectile for everything then if it's the better way to go, why bother with the lighter projectiles, can't see a need for the lighter ones if the heavier ones kill better, save ya self a lot of rooting around I'd reckon.

Yep..... I agree.
If you think you may need the heavier bullet on a trip, just zero for that and K.I.S.S.. If you are vehicle based, take two rifles. Walking; just take one and one load that will adequately cover all eventualities.

I have played with using two different loads that shoot on the same windage and it is far more hassle than it is worth. Judging range in the field leaves you second guessing enough without adding the variable of different loads into the equation.

Yep, just ain't worth all the stuffing around only to miss cos you forgot to allow for a slight variation of some sort, simpler to just stick with the one load and learn it's trajectories well, then you should have a higher success rate due to your confidence in knowing where it will hit, that way if it is something big and not something the cal would normally be used for you can be confident in it getting the job done with a will placed shot - ie the melon!

I swear one day someone will come up with some bulls**t theory that we need to use diff cals or loads or projectile weights for the diff days of the week, it's the only thing they haven't recommended yet but you can bet some numbnuts will suggest it and it will become internet law soon after.

[albat]

We all have more guns than we need and thats the marketing people peddling their BS!

[bigfellascott]

We all have more guns than we need and thats the marketing people peddling their BS!

Yep so true!

I reckon I could get away with a shotgun, 22, the 204 and 308 the rest aren't needed really anymore and I might sell em on this year as they don't really see much action unless I feel like taking something diff out for a change but those days seems to be getting less and less now as I just go with the ones I know well and get the job done. (too bloody hard trying to remember what shoots where these days K.I.S.S. is where it's at for me now, I only run the one load for each individual cal, none of this I need a individual load for pig, a deer or dogs etc - they all get the same medicine, same goes for rabbits, foxes etc - they all get the same medicine out of the 204 - I know where it shoots and use that to good effect no matter what pops out in front of me whether it be deer or rabbit, it's a bang flop if I do my part right

At the rate we are going we will have to carry Ipads and wind meters etc out with us to work out how to adjust for a shot at 50m - it's getting ridiculous how complicated some people like to make things these days.

I was using a bit of NV gear the other night - it didn't do much for me I can tell ya, tiny little screen that f***ed your vision for a good minute or two afterwards - I'd much rather just stick with the good ol spotlight that cost 3/8 of SFA in comparison to these things - maybe one day when the technology is a lot better but for now no thanks not interested in dropping $2+ for an IR set up and upwards of $4k+ for thermal.

[Oldbloke]

12g SG, 22lr, 223, & 30.06 are all I have. It would be nice to fill the gap with say a 243. But I can't justify it for the few hunting trips I do each year. If in doubt I go over gunned or take two.

[bigfellascott]

Why not just run the heavy projectile for everything then if it's the better way to go, why bother with the lighter projectiles, can't see a need for the lighter ones if the heavier ones kill better, save ya self a lot of rooting around I'd reckon.

Yep..... I agree.
If you think you may need the heavier bullet on a trip, just zero for that and K.I.S.S.. If you are vehicle based, take two rifles. Walking; just take one and one load that will adequately cover all eventualities.

I have played with using two different loads that shoot on the same windage and it is far more hassle than it is worth. Judging range in the field leaves you second guessing enough without adding the variable of different loads into the equation.

Yep, just ain't worth all the stuffing around only to miss cos you forgot to allow for a slight variation of some sort, simpler to just stick with the one load and learn it's trajectories well, then you should have a higher success rate due to your confidence in knowing where it will hit, that way if it is something big and not something the cal would normally be used for you can be confident in it getting the job done with a will placed shot - ie the melon!

I swear one day someone will come up with some bulls**t theory that we need to use diff cals or loads or projectile weights for the diff days of the week, it's the only thing they haven't recommended yet but you can bet some numbnuts will suggest it and it will become internet law soon after.

12ga tuesday is real i tell ya!

Ah no I used it on a Sunday - sorry will try better next time

[bigfellascott]

12g SG, 22lr, 223, & 30.06 are all I have. It would be nice to fill the gap with say a 243. But I can't justify it for the few hunting trips I do each year. If in doubt I go over gunned or take two.

Personally I wouldn't worry about a 243, you've got everything covered worth shooting with what ya got anyway mate, the 30-06 will knock all the big stuff down there without fuss and the 12g and 22 will take care of the bunnies and foxes as will the 223 - not much point cluttering up the safe with stuff you won't need (been there and doing that now) but will be sorting that out when I can be bothered.

[albat]

Im the opposite i roll everything with a 243 keeping it to about 200m energy to spare, got rimfire for tiny stuff love the hmr kills way above its weight dont need a 22 centrefire

[in2anity]

All I have is a 22 and a highly tuned 30/30. I shoot lead through them both, and both are extremely accurate. With good shot placement I can tick every (Aussie) box with these two, and they are both very cheap to run (and practice with). Totally agree with sticking to a couple of rifles and learn their trajectories like the back of your hand.

[deye243]

just remember that pill weight don't mean squat it's pill construction that counts especially if you are going for the boiler room .

[bigfellascott]

just remember that pill weight don't mean squat it's pill construction that counts especially if you are going for the boiler room .

Bloody oath D, it can certainly make the difference between success and failure at times.

[Oldbloke]

just remember that pill weight don't mean squat it's pill construction that counts especially if you are going for the boiler room .

Bloody oath D, it can certainly make the difference between success and failure at times.

And how it reacts is effected by the speed of the projectile on impact and what it hits, bone or soft flesh. The reality is that there are a lot of variabilities.

[Gwion]

Yep. I made up a trail boss load for a friend who wanted something with more whack than a 22lr but quieter than a full load 223rem so it didn't spook game or his stock as much. We did full load development and got his rifle zeroed at 100m for the round. I told him it is 120m max because it will really drop like a stone after that. It's a funny round when leaving the muzzle at around 1800fps if gives you a point and shoot MPBR into 2" from about 40m to 100 and loses about an inch out to 110m. After that it is losing velocity very quickly, making hold over for range a stupid guessing game. He shot something at 150-180m (his guesstimating). He showed me the Nosler Ballitic Tip 55gn bullet that he recovered. It was a bit bent but had entirely failed to expand or fragment. He said that closer shots had performed exactly as intended.

I reminded him that the load is only designed to shoot out to 120m MAX and that after 110ish it is starting to shed speed at an alarming rate.

If you don't understand the design parameters of your ammo and use it outside these boundries, you are asking for some nasty surprises! Just because you can hit something at a given range, doesn't mean you should!

[happyhunter]

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