300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

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300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by in2anity » 17 Jan 2017, 10:18 am

Off the back of discussions we've had in other thread I would like to propose a compact .30 cal, heavy-barrel target rifle that is still light enough to plink with offhand for extended periods at the range. It needs to weigh around 3kg, take most 308win projectiles, and have a tight enough twist to stabilise long heavy projectiles (perhaps up to 220gr?). It's really important that it can handle cast lead - this is what I'll predominantly be shooting; gas-checked 308 165gn rnfps. A 10 shot magazine is also a must.

So here goes (thanks Gwion for originally suggesting this idea):

1. Pick up a Howa mini-action HB in .223 (preferably with a target/varmint stock)
2. Have it rebarreled and re-chambered for 300blk
3. Get it dovetailed for a front sight at the same time
4. Throw a target aperture receiver on the rear mount

So here are some questions for you knowledgeable folk regarding this proposition:

a) The muzzle diameter for the Howa mini-action HB is .725"; would rebarreling up to .30 cal mean it's heat-dispersion capabilities would be dramatically reduced?
b) Would it be safe to presume that such a rifle be still as deadly accurate (sub moa 5-10 shot groups)? Would the thinner barrel dramatically change the harmonics and thus accuracy?
c) Would there be enough meat in the barrel for the front dovetail after the rebarrel?
d) What twist rate would be appropriate? 1:7?
e) Would I be just better off buying something off-the-shelf in 300blk (like the Ruger Ranch)? Any other 300blk suggestions to fill these requirements?
f) Are there already 308wins that realistically tick all of these boxes; i.e. lightweight, short heavy barrel, tight twist, 10shot magazine, very accurate?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by Gamerancher » 17 Jan 2017, 11:08 am

If you are re-barrelling, you are not restricted to factory specs for muzzle diameter, get a straight barrel, i.e no taper.
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by Gwion » 17 Jan 2017, 11:17 am

Or a straight taper. I got a light straight taper from Truflite for my 7-08. Looks great, shoots great and loses a bit of weight from the truck axle bull barrel. Get it in 18-20" and you will have a rifle that points very well for off hand work.
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by in2anity » 17 Jan 2017, 11:25 am

Gwion wrote:Or a straight taper. I got a light straight taper from Truflite for my 7-08. Looks great, shoots great and loses a bit of weight from the truck axle bull barrel. Get it in 18-20" and you will have a rifle that points very well for off hand work.


Oooh very nice - how about .30 (.3077"-.3080") 1-8"SG? http://www.truefliteriflebarrels.co.nz/ ... Twists.asp
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by Gwion » 17 Jan 2017, 11:30 am

Sorry. Can't help you with twist rates. I'm sure the info is available online, or if you order from Truflite, just tell Grant what the barrel is for, bullet weights, expected or target velocity and he will recommend the right twist rate. I found him very helpful in choosing my barrel.
Last edited by Gwion on 17 Jan 2017, 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by Gamerancher » 17 Jan 2017, 11:33 am

Does my barrel look fat in this stock?? :lol:
It's all good. :friends:
Comment was mainly indicating that if he re-barrels he can get whatever he wants. :allegedly:

On another subject Gwion, I should be coming down to Tassie October this year, Be great to meet up and give some trout a bit of
harassment and :drinks: .
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by in2anity » 17 Jan 2017, 11:54 am

Gamerancher wrote:Does my barrel look fat in this stock?? :lol:
It's all good. :friends:
Comment was mainly indicating that if he re-barrels he can get whatever he wants. :allegedly:

On another subject Gwion, I should be coming down to Tassie October this year, Be great to meet up and give some trout a bit of
harassment and :drinks: .


Lol - I suppose you'd have to take out a bit of material in the mini-action stock so it's still free floating right?
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by Gwion » 17 Jan 2017, 12:48 pm

in2anity wrote:
Gamerancher wrote:Does my barrel look fat in this stock?? :lol:
It's all good. :friends:
Comment was mainly indicating that if he re-barrels he can get whatever he wants. :allegedly:

On another subject Gwion, I should be coming down to Tassie October this year, Be great to meet up and give some trout a bit of
harassment and :drinks: .


Lol - I suppose you'd have to take out a bit of material in the mini-action stock so it's still free floating right?


Good point, In2. You will have to get the barrel profiled to match the action or a little smaller. A bull barrel matching the action would look great depending on weight and intended use (rest it free hand). Again, a good smith and barrel maker (Grant @ Truflite) can advise on this better.

Look up Rolf Hey Precision Gunsmith in Tas. You won't be disappointed. Both he and the guys at Truflite are great to deal with, good turn around time, quality and affordable.
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by Gwion » 17 Jan 2017, 12:51 pm

Gamerancher wrote:Does my barrel look fat in this stock?? :lol:
It's all good. :friends:
Comment was mainly indicating that if he re-barrels he can get whatever he wants. :allegedly:

On another subject Gwion, I should be coming down to Tassie October this year, Be great to meet up and give some trout a bit of
harassment and :drinks: .


Sorry GR. Wasn't trying to contradict you, just adding options.

Def let me know with some notice when you're coming through. You can use my reloading gear and I'd like to check out the local leg of that comp just for interest sake.

Defo trout time, too! :drinks:
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by in2anity » 17 Jan 2017, 1:38 pm

Gwion wrote:Or a straight taper. I got a light straight taper from Truflite for my 7-08. Looks great, shoots great and loses a bit of weight from the truck axle bull barrel. Get it in 18-20" and you will have a rifle that points very well for off hand work.


Gwion when you say "truck axle bull barrel", is that a heavy-barrel literally cut from a truck axle? Is that what Truflite use?
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by Gwion » 17 Jan 2017, 1:42 pm

No mate. It's just s joke term for a big fat long barrel. Looks like a truck axle in a rifle stock.
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by in2anity » 17 Jan 2017, 1:54 pm

Gwion wrote:No mate. It's just s joke term for a big fat long barrel. Looks like a truck axle in a rifle stock.


Gwion yes I imagine it would be a little fatter than the 223 .725", but no longer, perhaps even slightly shorter at 18" (like you suggested). Would it look ridiculous? Reckon she'd group tightly though?

FYI the whole premise of this idea revolves around the fact that the 7.62 x39 Howa mini has a groove-to-groove depth 2-3 thou larger (i.e. ~.311") than official 308win spec - do you think it's a bit OTT to spend at least $1000 more to formally address this discrepancy?
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by Gwion » 17 Jan 2017, 2:09 pm

My little left handed Zastava mini Mauser is fitted with a cut down varmint barrel off my Howa 223r.. It is 18" long, looks great, points well and shoots like stink!

Whether or not it is worth the extra cash is totally up to you. Buying the Howa mini and getting it rebarrelled will probably come out to around $1500. Only you can decide if that is too much for a semi custom rifle built to your specs. To me it was worth it. You will likely be able to get a bit of cash back by selling the Howa barrel.

At the same time, get the smith to true the action, bolt face and bolt lugs. All this smithy work cost me around $420 from memory, including chambering and fitting the 7-08 to my Howa action.

The Zasty was cheaper because I had the Howa barrel and it took less time to true and fit everything.

Another thing to remember if you want to save weight is that a short barrel is a lot stiffer for diameter than a long barrel. In the right balance, a shorter lighter barrel is as stiff as a longer heavier one.

What you have to decide is if you want to spend that cash or not and then chat out all the options with the barrel maker and smith.

Ps:edit: I would personally buy a barrel made to take the standard 30cal bullets to give a better selection for load development.
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by Gwion » 17 Jan 2017, 2:27 pm

Check out pics on page 4 of this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4297&start=54
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by deye243 » 17 Jan 2017, 2:55 pm

this is funny chit a truck axel barrel but he wants a 3kg rifle ............ NOT happening unless it's 10" long

if you want a 3kg rifle the about the best you can hope for is a #3 at about 20" long
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by Gwion » 17 Jan 2017, 3:24 pm

We were just pointing out that he had options for barrel profile and that he should define his design parameters and put it to a good smith to advise in detail.

Personally, I'd put up with a little extra weight in a balanced rifle rather than but a skinny little barrel on it. After all, it's not going to be a 1 or 2 shot hunting rifle that is being carried all day.

I reckon a #5 at 18" is what I'd be looking at.
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by deye243 » 17 Jan 2017, 3:30 pm

yeah I have a 5 on my 223 but he should be able to handle 50 or so shots out of a 300blk

recoil should be about the same as a 6.5 x 55 without going to heave and he was also talking

about offhand shooting so what is he built like
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by Gwion » 17 Jan 2017, 3:36 pm

Just weighed my Zasty 18" heavy varmint and it comes in just under 3.5kg with scope, unloaded.
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by slickncghia » 17 Jan 2017, 3:47 pm

Pretty sure the ruger American ranch comes in 300 blackout. Might fit the bill right out of the gate

16" barrel. 1:7 twist cheap light ... Gogogo
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by in2anity » 17 Jan 2017, 6:17 pm

deye243 wrote:this is funny chit a truck axel barrel but he wants a 3kg rifle ............ NOT happening unless it's 10" long

if you want a 3kg rifle the about the best you can hope for is a #3 at about 20" long


Laugh all you want buddy but I don't think so - give or take a few hundred grams. Remember it won't have optics so there's a few hundred right there. Under 4kg is achievable. The 223 mini action has a HB, AND it's 20", weighing in at 2.99kg. I never said I wanted a bench barrel - just not a sporter.
Last edited by in2anity on 17 Jan 2017, 7:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by in2anity » 17 Jan 2017, 6:23 pm

deye243 wrote:yeah I have a 5 on my 223 but he should be able to handle 50 or so shots out of a 300blk

recoil should be about the same as a 6.5 x 55 without going to heave and he was also talking

about offhand shooting so what is he built like


Ha don't you worry, I regularly offhand x50 hot 30/30s in one session, and that's a sportee with peeps, weighing in at around 3.5kgs. And as I said before I'll be loading reduced and Trail Boss loads with this setup most of the time anyway- so recoil is absolutely not a factor. Accuracy is what I'm chasing here...
Last edited by in2anity on 17 Jan 2017, 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by in2anity » 17 Jan 2017, 6:25 pm

slickncghia wrote:Pretty sure the ruger American ranch comes in 300 blackout. Might fit the bill right out of the gate

16" barrel. 1:7 twist cheap light ... Gogogo


But is it a HB rifle? How would it handle long strings of shots? Remember I plink 10 at a time, x10 so 100 shots in one session. Don't worry this rifle definitely caught my eye... it would save a hell of a lot of work and $$. Have you had personal experience with it?
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by slickncghia » 17 Jan 2017, 7:57 pm

in2anity wrote:
But is it a HB rifle? How would it handle long strings of shots? Remember I plink 10 at a time, x10 so 100 shots in one session. Don't worry this rifle definitely caught my eye... it would save a hell of a lot of work and $$. Have you had personal experience with it?


Looks kinda medium profile at best. No personal experience I've got a normal ruger American 30-06 and that is the opposite of hb. Barrell heats up just looking at it.

Still not 100℅ sure of the end purpose? Short medium range cheap plinking offhand? Pistol caliber lever? I dn
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by in2anity » 17 Jan 2017, 8:08 pm

slickncghia wrote:
in2anity wrote:
But is it a HB rifle? How would it handle long strings of shots? Remember I plink 10 at a time, x10 so 100 shots in one session. Don't worry this rifle definitely caught my eye... it would save a hell of a lot of work and $$. Have you had personal experience with it?

Still not 100℅ sure of the end purpose? Short medium range cheap plinking offhand? Pistol caliber lever? I dn


Cheap, accurate, cast-lead short-medium reduced plinker with minimal case-void. With ability to really stretch out with some hotter jacketed match projectiles (with the benefit of a ton of projectiles to choose from). Also I can reuse a lot of my 30 cal gear. And I already own a lever :D god the 7.62 x39mm Howa Mini comes close to ticking all the boxes... heck I'm sure you could run .303 cast lead through one of those :S
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by deye243 » 17 Jan 2017, 8:39 pm

in2anity wrote:
deye243 wrote:this is funny chit a truck axel barrel but he wants a 3kg rifle ............ NOT happening unless it's 10" long

if you want a 3kg rifle the about the best you can hope for is a #3 at about 20" long


Laugh all you want buddy but I don't think so - give or take a few hundred grams. Remember it won't have optics so there's a few hundred right there. Under 4kg is achievable. The 223 mini action has a HB, AND it's 20", weighing in at 2.99kg. I never said I wanted a bench barrel - just not a sporter.


didn't see this bit in the op just the bit about the for sight and it didn't click so this will be a fun little project .

cheers D
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by COLLECTOR 1 » 17 Jan 2017, 8:47 pm

Hi there... I recently bought one of these mini Howa rifles in heavy barrelled stainless,,,, 223 cal...specifically for shooting out of a vehicle.

I suggest you check out the magazine and it's demensions because I know the 223 with 50 and 55gn projectials is a snug fit, and you may have seating depth drams with 30 cal.

But it would be a good thing if you could get it up and running

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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by Mitch » 17 Jan 2017, 8:48 pm

Firstly,

300blk only needs a 16" barrel for powder burn etc. Any more is a bit wasteful, hence why they all come in ~16" lengths.

Secondly,

You could get a brand new blued barrel fitted and chambered for ~$600, making the whole build say $1200?

Thirdly,

16" barrel is pretty light, even if its a varmint barrel.

I say do it. Stop thinking, just do it.
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by bladeracer » 17 Jan 2017, 8:49 pm

in2anity wrote:Off the back of discussions we've had in other thread I would like to propose a compact .30 cal, heavy-barrel target rifle that is still light enough to plink with offhand for extended periods at the range. It needs to weigh around 3kg, take most 308win projectiles, and have a tight enough twist to stabilise long heavy projectiles (perhaps up to 220gr?). It's really important that it can handle cast lead - this is what I'll predominantly be shooting; gas-checked 308 165gn rnfps. A 10 shot magazine is also a must.

So here goes (thanks Gwion for originally suggesting this idea):

1. Pick up a Howa mini-action HB in .223 (preferably with a target/varmint stock)
2. Have it rebarreled and re-chambered for 300blk
3. Get it dovetailed for a front sight at the same time
4. Throw a target aperture receiver on the rear mount

So here are some questions for you knowledgeable folk regarding this proposition:

a) The muzzle diameter for the Howa mini-action HB is .725"; would rebarreling up to .30 cal mean it's heat-dispersion capabilities would be dramatically reduced?
b) Would it be safe to presume that such a rifle be still as deadly accurate (sub moa 5-10 shot groups)? Would the thinner barrel dramatically change the harmonics and thus accuracy?
c) Would there be enough meat in the barrel for the front dovetail after the rebarrel?
d) What twist rate would be appropriate? 1:7?
e) Would I be just better off buying something off-the-shelf in 300blk (like the Ruger Ranch)? Any other 300blk suggestions to fill these requirements?
f) Are there already 308wins that realistically tick all of these boxes; i.e. lightweight, short heavy barrel, tight twist, 10shot magazine, very accurate?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.



Get the American Ranch Rifle in 300BLK and drop it into an MDT LSS stock with ten-round AICS mags.
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by in2anity » 18 Jan 2017, 6:39 am

bladeracer wrote:Get the American Ranch Rifle in 300BLK and drop it into an MDT LSS stock with ten-round AICS mags.


I just wonder how that barrel would handle long strings of shots...
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Re: 300blk Howa Crossover Rifle

Post by in2anity » 18 Jan 2017, 6:40 am

deye243 wrote:
in2anity wrote:
deye243 wrote:this is funny chit a truck axel barrel but he wants a 3kg rifle ............ NOT happening unless it's 10" long

if you want a 3kg rifle the about the best you can hope for is a #3 at about 20" long


Laugh all you want buddy but I don't think so - give or take a few hundred grams. Remember it won't have optics so there's a few hundred right there. Under 4kg is achievable. The 223 mini action has a HB, AND it's 20", weighing in at 2.99kg. I never said I wanted a bench barrel - just not a sporter.


didn't see this bit in the op just the bit about the for sight and it didn't click so this will be a fun little project .

cheers D


:friends:
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