First firearm or firearms?

[FlyingStick]

Hi All,

Need some guidance and advice here. My license application is in progress and I am currently researching my first shotgun, and possibly, rifle.

So. Shotgun is almost sorted, either the Miroku MK70 or MK10. Reason for miroku is I love my brother in laws MK10 and I have been told by some experienced range officers that its a good fit. I definitely need the shotgun as the family is into duck hunting.

Question is, do I spend more and get the MK10 or do I opt to spend less and possibly go MK70 (or similar) and fit in a small calibre rifle too?

Regarding rifle, looking to use it for general shooting and target, hunting small game and fox etc. Originally I thought .22 was a good choice given it's so economical but starting to think something bigger??

Also, what sort of $$ should I set aside for rifle and scope?

Cheers!

[Ed9362]

I always recommend new shooters but a 22LR for their first rifle unless they have a specific task they want to do with the rifle.
you can get away with spending very little on a 22 and still have a decent rifle to learn with.

[Gwion]

Hi FlyingStick. I can't advise on shotgun choice but in relation to "Weapons": although QLD Police refer to their firearms licencing department as "weapons" licencing, most of us prefer to use the term "firearm".

A weapon is something used to defend or attack. My car keys can be a weapon at need.
A firearm is a tool for sporting or hunting purposes in Australia.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/weapon

[wep-uh n]

noun
1.
any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat, fighting, or war, as a sword, rifle, or cannon.
2.
anything used against an opponent, adversary, or victim:
the deadly weapon of satire.
3.
Zoology. any part or organ serving for attack or defense, as claws, horns, teeth, or stings.
verb (used with object)
4.
to supply or equip with a weapon or weapons:
to weapon aircraft with heat-seeking missiles.

Origin of weapon
Middle English, Old English
Middle English wepen,
Old English wǣpen;
cognate with German Waffe,
Old Norse vāpn,
Gothic wēpna (plural)

Related forms Expand:

weaponed, adjective
weaponless, adjective
outweaponed, adjective
superweapon, noun
unweaponed, adjective

Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2017."

[Gwion]

I always recommend new shooters but a 22LR for their first rifle unless they have a specific task they want to do with the rifle.
you can get away with spending very little on a 22 and still have a decent rifle to learn with.

I agree. Start with a 22lr. You dont need to spend up big on a scope for a 22lr or basic hunting rifle.

[FlyingStick]

Apologies about the wording - I'm not even sure why I used weapons rather than firearms.

So .22 seems the consensus - a small step up like .223 wouldn't be a good idea?

And I guess the essence of the question - am I better of spending a little less on the shotgun to fit in the rifle?

[Gwion]

All depends, mate.
Personally, i'd wait until i got some good results on target and in the field on bunnies with the 22lr before going a centerfire.
As for spending less on a shotgun: again, i can't really help but i depends on what you want the shotgun for. Just for some ducks and a bit of casual clay busting, i'd imagine you don't need to spend too much.

Others will advise better.

[Ed9362]

Apologies about the wording - I'm not even sure why I used weapons rather than firearms.

So .22 seems the consensus - a small step up like .223 wouldn't be a good idea?

And I guess the essence of the question - am I better of spending a little less on the shotgun to fit in the rifle?

I am certainly no shot gun expert but I have always been surprised how much people will spend on a shotgun to use for hunting and occasional clay shooting in a paddock. I understand for the guys shooting competition but for the casual user surely the cheaper end of the market is about right. my old $1000 lanber has served me well for years.

[brett1868]

Now that the nomenclature has been settled (the term weapon for firearm is a pet hate of mine as well), maybe forget the 22LR and get yourself a .223. The .223 is relatively cheap to feed compared to most centre fire rifles and ammunition is plentiful. It'll do a better job on smaller game at longer ranges compared to the 22LR while teaching you a bit about holdovers and possibly reloading in the future. Plenty of choices out there for the .223, personally I own a Howa Mini Action S/S with varmint barrel which cost $1145. The blued base package was $795 with a Tasco WC 3-9x40 but for the sake of $350 I opted for the S/S with varmint barrel and Burris FF-E1 3-9x40 scope. I feed it with 55gr OSA factory ammo which groups around an inch or less at 100m making it perfectly acceptable for hunting small game.
Other options besides a 22LR are the 22Mag which can be expensive on ammo if you can find it, the 17HMR which is a good performer but again expensive on ammo compared to the humble 22LR.
I have no opinion on shotguns, I have several but use them mainly for birds, pigs and snakes. Probably the closest I have to the Miroku is the Akkar Churchill Combo which set me back $1200 and came with 2 ejector barrels (20" & 30") screw in chokes. Might be worth checking out as the price point is close to the Miroku and you get both barrels and a nice case (Note. Store the Akkar well oiled as they like to rust).
Hopefully one of the Mexican members can point you to a good firearms dealer in your neighborhood as I'm in NSW.

[Gettingstarted]

As a recent starter I can highly recommend a 22lr. I can put a couple of hundred rounds through in a session to practice and it only costs me 20 or 30 bucks on the cheap stuff. I spent 1000 for a rifle and scope package and it's performing faultlessly.

[deye243]

Hi All,

Need some guidance and advice here. My license application is in progress and I am currently researching my first shotgun, and possibly, rifle.

So. Shotgun is almost sorted, either the Miroku MK70 or MK10. Reason for miroku is I love my brother in laws MK10 and I have been told by some experienced range officers that its a good fit. I definitely need the shotgun as the family is into duck hunting.

Question is, do I spend more and get the MK10 or do I opt to spend less and possibly go MK70 (or similar) and fit in a small calibre rifle too?

Regarding rifle, looking to use it for general shooting and target, hunting small game and fox etc. Originally I thought .22 was a good choice given it's so economical but starting to think something bigger??

Also, what sort of $$ should I set aside for rifle and scope?

Cheers!

flyingstick do have any experience on your brothers shotgun the reason I ask is if you can hit clays

with it then don't bother going backwards and start of with a 22 when the family is obviously in to

duck hunting .

there is no reason to start with a rimfire if you are already recoil tolerant and buy the best shotty that

you can afford that FITS you .

[GLS_1956]

I am also a proponent of the 22LR for first gun, rifle or pistol. It is much easier to obtain firearms here that in Australia so I can see you wanting to get the more powerful cartridge at the start, in which case I'd go for a 223Remington. When it comes to the shotgun, most of mine are repeaters, but Miroku makes damn fine guns.

[in2anity]

If you've got the budget for it - get yourself a nice Anchutz 22lr and be done with it you're better off spending a bit more coin up front rather than being left with the feeling of dissatisfaction. You can then move into centerfires down the track without looking back.

[sandgroperbill]

Plenty of very good, pre-loved .22s out there for not much coin. Check around and you might be surprised what you can find. Great way to squeeze an extra quality firearm out of the budget.

[bigfellascott]

Personally I'd go a CF rifle over the 22 when it comes to shooting foxes etc, it gives you more flexibility for the longer range shots, can be used for bigger ferals too if need be. The 12g will sort the foxes out at the 22 ranges 99% of the time anyway.

I'd say the only real diff between the 2 shotguns you are looking at is the grade of timber and probably a few cosmetic diffs in the finish so work out if you want to pay more $$ for fancy or not.

Buy a cheapish 22 ($400 range) if you want to do some cheap practice but you should be able to find a decent 2nd hand 22 for that price if you look around. Same with the shottie, there are usually some decent 2nd options out there that might be worth investigating so have a look.

Good luck

[Gwion]

Totally agree a 22cal centre fire is a better choice for foxes, etc.. Most beginners don't start by bagging foxes, though. They start by practicing their basic shooting skills. A 22lr is a much better option for practicing as you can rattle off 5shots for the cost of every 1shot of a 223rem.
Shooting (well) is an acquired and perishable skill. Having a 22lr to keep your eye in without breaking the bank or needing too much space is always going to be a handy thing.

[bigfellascott]

Totally agree a 22cal centre fire is a better choice for foxes, etc.. Most beginners don't start by bagging foxes, though. They start by practicing their basic shooting skills. A 22lr is a much better option for practicing as you can rattle off 5shots for the cost of every 1shot of a 223rem.
Shooting (well) is an acquired and perishable skill. Having a 22lr to keep your eye in without breaking the bank or needing too much space is always going to be a handy thing.

Yeah in this day and age maybe, not in my day, we practiced on a few tin cans or such then went hunting - seem to have managed to do alright that way (my first shot from a rifle was a 303 at about age 8

Now we have to mambie pambie everyone in case they get scared - crazy world we live in these days, everyone's soft and weak and can't think for themselves anymore, they seem to need to seek approval and help for everything and anything now - different times I guess.

The wife had half a dozen shots at the range from my 22-250 and liked it so got her license, bought a 2nd hand 223 Ruger and went smackin bunnies with it out to about 150m or so (a few headshots in there which was great to see) - a bit of guidance can see someone shooting well soon enough. The good part about the 22 is it's cheap to run and not overly noisy etc which makes it user friendly and definitely a fun way to practice (I only use my 22 now to roll the odd rabbit for something diff and the occasional spinner shooting fun when on holidays - other than that I use the CF rifles 99.9% of the time as they allow me more flexibility and are more useful for the types of shooting I do.

Everyone needs a 22 in their collection though no doubt about that, whether you need it straight off the bat will really depend on what type of shooting you intend doing I guess and as ol mate mentioned foxes I'd give the 22 a miss for now and buy a 223 or similar and learn how to shoot that well then get stuck into em.

[Gwion]

I started shooting at the age of 11. Practicing at tin cans with my mate's .177 and .22 slug guns.

There is nothing 'nambie pambie' about practicing shooting skills to be able to confidently make clean kills.

[Supaduke]

I've found firearms to be a lot like motorbikes. In so much as there are two distinct types of owners. The first type are the ones who just want to have one, because it's tough, cool or whatever. The second type are those who genuinely enjoy the sport and use their equipment a lot.

Hence you see 2007 Harley's with 2k on the clock. And so many rifles with "only shot one box of ammo" for sale.

The second hand market for bikes and firearms is a buyers market. Plenty of great deals to be had if you are smart and do your research.

A second hand rifle is a great option.

As far as shotties go, it's all about your budget. If you can afford a Miroku, get one, they are excellent and I've never heard a complaint from their owners.

I agree that .22's are the best choice for a first rifle. The fact is most of us are in the suburbs and have limited access to properties. Generally requiring some weekend time put aside to get there. Absolutely nothing wrong with shooting at a range. Bottom line, it's fun.

Again referring to motorcycles, its similar to the attitude of a lot of riders pushing newbies to get big bikes because "250's and 600's are for pussies". Learning the fundamentals on a .22 is a time honoured tradition. If you don't like shooting a .22 at the range, cool, don't do it then. Doesn't make you any less of a shooter.

I know so many guys who have bought a larger centrefire as their first rifle, but when we go shooting they always end up wanting to have a go at my .22's and have great fun doing it.

Real Men shoot .22's and don't feel like their masculinity is under threat for doing so

[bigfellascott]

I started shooting at the age of 11. Practicing at tin cans with my mate's .177 and .22 slug guns.

There is nothing 'nambie pambie' about practicing shooting skills to be able to confidently make clean kills.

referring to mambie pambie in regards to starting on a 22 because you could be recoil sensitive line everyone trots out these days - way too much limp wristed people these days I reckon - ol mate's not going to be worried about recoil if he's shooting 12g and I'd rather see him shooting foxes with a CF than a 22 because the chances of him killing it outright are better with a CF than a 22 for the simple fact he may not nail it in the sweet spot being a novice (I assume he is) - the CF will allow a bit of room for error so to speak and give him more flexibility when it comes to shooting other stuff down the track, the 22 is really a rabbit cal and a plinker in reality (nothing wrong with em got 3 or 4 of the bloody things myself but just not that versatile compared to a small cal CF for a first rifle if one is on a bit of a budget and can't afford a heap of diff cals straight off the bat (which would be the majority of us I'd say)

I can't say I ever really remember going to a range to specifically learn to shoot as a kid, all my lessons were in the real world learning to hunt - funny how times have changed hey.

[Gwion]

Fair enough but as s novice shooter only used to the odd run with s shottie, I'd still be encouraging him to start practicing with a 22lr and get confident with clean kills out to 50m on bunnies before stepping up to foxes with a centre fire.
He will never regret owning a 22lr for fun and short range hunting.

[bigfellascott]

Fair enough but as s novice shooter only used to the odd run with s shottie, I'd still be encouraging him to start practicing with a 22lr and get confident with clean kills out to 50m on bunnies before stepping up to foxes with a centre fire.
He will never regret owning a 22lr for fun and short range hunting.

True enough G, maybe an air rifle for some cheap plinking fun (had one of them as a kid - well had a few actually) BB and .177 and .22 cals good fun and cheap enough to buy and run and wasn't annoying noise wise to anyone.

This question has got me thinking back how many diff cals and rifles I've had over the years - quite staggering when I start thinking about it - some I've still got from my teens which I'm glad about.

[Gwion]

Imagine how much cash you've gone through in all the swapping and changing!?!

[bigfellascott]

Imagine how much cash you've gone through in all the swapping and changing!?!

Imagine how much some of them would be worth today - 18 diff ones I can recall and still got 12 of em as far as I can tell

I really need to thin some out but I find it hard to let go of them because of all the memories associated with them.

[Gwion]

If you like having them, they are worth more just sitting in the safe than their cash value if sold off. You know how quick any spare cash can get swallowed up by household needs!

[brett1868]

I really need to thin some out but I find it hard to let go of them because of all the memories associated with them.

Had that same thought myself Bigfella, but it lasted only a nanosecond before I regained my senses. I'm sure that thought will soon pass for you as well

[bigfellascott]

If you like having them, they are worth more just sitting in the safe than their cash value if sold off. You know how quick any spare cash can get swallowed up by household needs!

Bloody oath, their not worth much Monetarily but sentimentally they are worth a darn sight more.

I really need to thin some out but I find it hard to let go of them because of all the memories associated with them.

Had that same thought myself Bigfella, but it lasted only a nanosecond before I regained my senses. I'm sure that thought will soon pass for you as well

Yeah it passes soon enough although there are a few there that I really don't use and probably won't use again that I could/should flog off and use the $$ to buy something firearms related with - problem is I have everything I need and everything works fine the way it is so haven't bothered as yet.

[happyhunter]

.

[bigfellascott]

Apologies about the wording - I'm not even sure why I used weapons rather than firearms.

So .22 seems the consensus - a small step up like .223 wouldn't be a good idea?

And I guess the essence of the question - am I better of spending a little less on the shotgun to fit in the rifle?

haha.. Don't worry about the terminology. Anything can be a weapon, even logic.

Very good rifles can be bought cheap, but a nice shotgun is something you will be glad you invested in down the track. Big plus for the 22LR. You can put in 1000s of rounds of practise without bothering anybody (noise). Not always possible with a shotgun or center fire rifle, unless you have access to large private properties.

22LR and 12 gauge are fine for shooting foxes. I use them all the time although I have a couple small center fires for the same purpose under different conditions.

Yep u need something like CF for the majority of fox shooting work, 22's are to limiting IMO - can't shoot a fox at 300m + with a 22, can with a decent CF and a CF can be used at short ranges too so is a better option for foxes in my opinion. 22s are good for practice and bunnies but and def worth owning somewhere along the journey for sure.

I definitely wouldn't buy one for foxes though way too limiting.

[Title_II]

Apologies about the wording - I'm not even sure why I used weapons rather than firearms.

Because all firearms are weapons, with the rare exception of firearms designed specifically only to train in weaponry. No exceptions. They were invented as weapons, they are designed as weapons, they have only those two uses, with competition included in weaponry training.

You simply ran into an unfortunate legal/cultural issue. Of course, I am a Yank, so your mileage may vary

It's like saying my bayonet or my saber is not a weapon, they are for carving my steak, breaking down boxes, or playing improvised lawn darts. And my bear trap is really a nice BBQ tool holder. OK, keep telling yourself that

You will note they are called fireARMS, not firethings

[Browning]

Get either shotty..... Fancy not needed in the field.

If you're personal finances are often stretched, get a 22lr as they're much cheaper to shoot. If not, get a 223. Recoil is nothing to worry about, ammo is cheap and gives you more flexibility......
No doubt a 22 is handy and you'll get one down the track, but sounds like a 223 or such will be just the ticket...