First firearm or firearms?

Bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action, self loading rifles and other miscellaneous longarms.

Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by bigfellascott » 25 Jan 2017, 1:45 pm

Gwion wrote:I started shooting at the age of 11. Practicing at tin cans with my mate's .177 and .22 slug guns.

There is nothing 'nambie pambie' about practicing shooting skills to be able to confidently make clean kills.


referring to mambie pambie in regards to starting on a 22 because you could be recoil sensitive line everyone trots out these days :thumbsup: - way too much limp wristed people these days I reckon - ol mate's not going to be worried about recoil if he's shooting 12g and I'd rather see him shooting foxes with a CF than a 22 because the chances of him killing it outright are better with a CF than a 22 for the simple fact he may not nail it in the sweet spot being a novice (I assume he is) - the CF will allow a bit of room for error so to speak and give him more flexibility when it comes to shooting other stuff down the track, the 22 is really a rabbit cal and a plinker in reality (nothing wrong with em got 3 or 4 of the bloody things myself but just not that versatile compared to a small cal CF for a first rifle if one is on a bit of a budget and can't afford a heap of diff cals straight off the bat (which would be the majority of us I'd say)

I can't say I ever really remember going to a range to specifically learn to shoot as a kid, all my lessons were in the real world learning to hunt - funny how times have changed hey. :thumbsup:
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by Gwion » 25 Jan 2017, 1:51 pm

Fair enough but as s novice shooter only used to the odd run with s shottie, I'd still be encouraging him to start practicing with a 22lr and get confident with clean kills out to 50m on bunnies before stepping up to foxes with a centre fire.
He will never regret owning a 22lr for fun and short range hunting.
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by bigfellascott » 25 Jan 2017, 1:57 pm

Gwion wrote:Fair enough but as s novice shooter only used to the odd run with s shottie, I'd still be encouraging him to start practicing with a 22lr and get confident with clean kills out to 50m on bunnies before stepping up to foxes with a centre fire.
He will never regret owning a 22lr for fun and short range hunting.


True enough G, maybe an air rifle for some cheap plinking fun (had one of them as a kid - well had a few actually) BB and .177 and .22 cals good fun and cheap enough to buy and run and wasn't annoying noise wise to anyone.

This question has got me thinking back how many diff cals and rifles I've had over the years - quite staggering when I start thinking about it - some I've still got from my teens which I'm glad about. :thumbsup:
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by Gwion » 25 Jan 2017, 2:08 pm

Imagine how much cash you've gone through in all the swapping and changing!?!
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by bigfellascott » 25 Jan 2017, 2:46 pm

Gwion wrote:Imagine how much cash you've gone through in all the swapping and changing!?!


Imagine how much some of them would be worth today - 18 diff ones I can recall and still got 12 of em as far as I can tell :shock:

I really need to thin some out but I find it hard to let go of them because of all the memories associated with them. :unknown:
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by Gwion » 25 Jan 2017, 2:54 pm

If you like having them, they are worth more just sitting in the safe than their cash value if sold off. You know how quick any spare cash can get swallowed up by household needs!
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by brett1868 » 25 Jan 2017, 2:54 pm

I really need to thin some out but I find it hard to let go of them because of all the memories associated with them.


Had that same thought myself Bigfella, but it lasted only a nanosecond before I regained my senses. I'm sure that thought will soon pass for you as well :D
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by bigfellascott » 25 Jan 2017, 3:19 pm

Gwion wrote:If you like having them, they are worth more just sitting in the safe than their cash value if sold off. You know how quick any spare cash can get swallowed up by household needs!


Bloody oath, their not worth much Monetarily but sentimentally they are worth a darn sight more.

brett1868 wrote:
I really need to thin some out but I find it hard to let go of them because of all the memories associated with them.


Had that same thought myself Bigfella, but it lasted only a nanosecond before I regained my senses. I'm sure that thought will soon pass for you as well :D


Yeah it passes soon enough although there are a few there that I really don't use and probably won't use again that I could/should flog off and use the $$ to buy something firearms related with - problem is I have everything I need and everything works fine the way it is so haven't bothered as yet. :D
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Re: First weapon or weapons?

Post by happyhunter » 25 Jan 2017, 8:26 pm

.
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Re: First weapon or weapons?

Post by bigfellascott » 26 Jan 2017, 3:20 pm

happyhunter wrote:
FlyingStick wrote:Apologies about the wording - I'm not even sure why I used weapons rather than firearms.

So .22 seems the consensus - a small step up like .223 wouldn't be a good idea?

And I guess the essence of the question - am I better of spending a little less on the shotgun to fit in the rifle?


haha.. Don't worry about the terminology. Anything can be a weapon, even logic.

Very good rifles can be bought cheap, but a nice shotgun is something you will be glad you invested in down the track. Big plus for the 22LR. You can put in 1000s of rounds of practise without bothering anybody (noise). Not always possible with a shotgun or center fire rifle, unless you have access to large private properties.

22LR and 12 gauge are fine for shooting foxes. I use them all the time although I have a couple small center fires for the same purpose under different conditions.


Yep u need something like CF for the majority of fox shooting work, 22's are to limiting IMO - can't shoot a fox at 300m + with a 22, can with a decent CF and a CF can be used at short ranges too so is a better option for foxes in my opinion. 22s are good for practice and bunnies but and def worth owning somewhere along the journey for sure.

I definitely wouldn't buy one for foxes though way too limiting.
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Re: First weapon or weapons?

Post by Title_II » 26 Jan 2017, 4:28 pm

FlyingStick wrote:Apologies about the wording - I'm not even sure why I used weapons rather than firearms.


Because all firearms are weapons, with the rare exception of firearms designed specifically only to train in weaponry. No exceptions. They were invented as weapons, they are designed as weapons, they have only those two uses, with competition included in weaponry training.

You simply ran into an unfortunate legal/cultural issue. Of course, I am a Yank, so your mileage may vary :)

It's like saying my bayonet or my saber is not a weapon, they are for carving my steak, breaking down boxes, or playing improvised lawn darts. And my bear trap is really a nice BBQ tool holder. OK, keep telling yourself that ;)

You will note they are called fireARMS, not firethings ;)
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by Browning » 26 Jan 2017, 4:30 pm

Get either shotty..... Fancy not needed in the field.

If you're personal finances are often stretched, get a 22lr as they're much cheaper to shoot. If not, get a 223. Recoil is nothing to worry about, ammo is cheap and gives you more flexibility......
No doubt a 22 is handy and you'll get one down the track, but sounds like a 223 or such will be just the ticket...
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Re: First weapon or weapons?

Post by Ed9362 » 26 Jan 2017, 6:47 pm

Title_II wrote:
FlyingStick wrote:Apologies about the wording - I'm not even sure why I used weapons rather than firearms.


Because all firearms are weapons, with the rare exception of firearms designed specifically only to train in weaponry. No exceptions. They were invented as weapons, they are designed as weapons, they have only those two uses, with competition included in weaponry training.

You simply ran into an unfortunate legal/cultural issue. Of course, I am a Yank, so your mileage may vary :)

It's like saying my bayonet or my saber is not a weapon, they are for carving my steak, breaking down boxes, or playing improvised lawn darts. And my bear trap is really a nice BBQ tool holder. OK, keep telling yourself that ;)

You will note they are called fireARMS, not firethings ;)



I always enjoy the simple attitudes you have Americans towards guns, I guess it come with the freedom you guys enjoy and the lack of hounding we have to endure.

I must admit that i hate when people call firearms weapons. Purely for the negative image it projects to non shooters.
I think the difference between aussies and Americans is that when an Australian is carrying a fireARM they still don't consider themselves to be armed in the sense that an American might.

just my 2cents
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by Oldbloke » 26 Jan 2017, 7:16 pm

My vote is 22lr & 12g shotgun. Leave the centrefire until you have a specific need & some experience.

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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by brett1868 » 26 Jan 2017, 8:22 pm

Too much talking and not enough doing, I'm a results focused individual and best solution is....Buy the 12ga, Buy a 22LR and Buy a small CF such as a 223 or 204. All bases are covered so get to it mate :)
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by Buddy77 » 26 Jan 2017, 9:06 pm

Hi All,

Joined this forum just minutes ago.

This is the first post ive read but not a stranger to reading forums. I like the advice being given makes alot sense in my situation as i have passed my firearms license yesterday.

Im leaning towards getting a bolt action .22LR as my experience with firearms is very limited.
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by in2anity » 26 Jan 2017, 10:08 pm

This chuckhawks article really struck a cord with me: http://www.chuckhawks.com/off-hand_shooting.htm get yourself a 22 and resist the urge to plink off a bench/rest/bipod - the low cost of ammo means you've got nothing to lose but everything to gain by challenging yourself. Learn to shoot well offhand, then everything else seems like cheating.
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by Buddy77 » 29 Jan 2017, 12:46 am

in2anity wrote:This chuckhawks article really struck a cord with me: http://www.chuckhawks.com/off-hand_shooting.htm get yourself a 22 and resist the urge to plink off a bench/rest/bipod - the low cost of ammo means you've got nothing to lose but everything to gain by challenging yourself. Learn to shoot well offhand, then everything else seems like cheating.


Cheers mate thats some very interesting info
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by in2anity » 29 Jan 2017, 11:26 am

Buddy77 wrote:
in2anity wrote:This chuckhawks article really struck a cord with me: http://www.chuckhawks.com/off-hand_shooting.htm get yourself a 22 and resist the urge to plink off a bench/rest/bipod - the low cost of ammo means you've got nothing to lose but everything to gain by challenging yourself. Learn to shoot well offhand, then everything else seems like cheating.


Cheers mate thats some very interesting info


FYI the lazy eight is only really applicable to standing offhand - classic three position and prone, military style shooting demands a slightly different breath control strategy: three deep breaths, then hold on the exhale. try to squeeze the round away within a few seconds between heart-beats but not too long, as the lactic acid builds, you start to shake, and your vision degrades. in this case, look away at some green grass, catch your breath and start all over again. All that stuff about posture and natural point of aim is still 100% applicable. At least that's how I was trained to shoot prone fullbore target - and we started on target 22s at 25m - we had to to "graduate" into centerfire after we were consistently scoring 130+ in a 15 shot 150 point match.
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by bigfellascott » 29 Jan 2017, 11:40 am

in2anity wrote:
Buddy77 wrote:
in2anity wrote:This chuckhawks article really struck a cord with me: http://www.chuckhawks.com/off-hand_shooting.htm get yourself a 22 and resist the urge to plink off a bench/rest/bipod - the low cost of ammo means you've got nothing to lose but everything to gain by challenging yourself. Learn to shoot well offhand, then everything else seems like cheating.


Cheers mate thats some very interesting info


FYI the lazy eight is only really applicable to standing offhand - classic three position and prone, military style shooting demands a slightly different breath control strategy: three deep breaths, then hold on the exhale. try to squeeze the round away within a few seconds between heart-beats but not too long, as the lactic acid builds, you start to shake, and your vision degrades. in this case, look away at some green grass, catch your breath and start all over again. All that stuff about posture and natural point of aim is still 100% applicable. At least that's how I was trained to shoot prone fullbore target - and we started on target 22s at 25m - we had to to "graduate" into centerfire after we were consistently scoring 130+ in a 15 shot 150 point match.


Is this info applicable to hunting situations or just target shooting? Can't say I've bothered with it hunting, infact I don't pay too much attention to the breathing side of it at all to be honest, just a quick breath in, exhale whilst the xhairs are on the target then send it on it's way. I can see where it's needed for target shooting but completely unnecessary for hunting situations where quick shots can often be the norm where it's a matter of getting the Xhairs on the target and send it asap before they bugger off.

I've often been out with people hunting and I wonder what they are doing when it comes to shooting the animal, I see them fluffing about for what feels like an eternity trying to get the breathing/shot placement right, meanwhile I could have shot the thing several times over. I blame the high mag scopes that some use to hunt with, those things show every heart beat etc which can cause one to 2nd guess themselves to some degree - my mate love his "Hubbles" as I call em, I reckon most of his rifles are way overscoped for the distances he shoots ferals at.
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by in2anity » 29 Jan 2017, 2:45 pm

bigfellascott wrote:Is this info applicable to hunting situations or just target shooting? Can't say I've bothered with it hunting, infact I don't pay too much attention to the breathing side of it at all to be honest, just a quick breath in, exhale whilst the xhairs are on the target then send it on it's way. I can see where it's needed for target shooting but completely unnecessary for hunting situations where quick shots can often be the norm where it's a matter of getting the Xhairs on the target and send it asap before they bugger off.

I've often been out with people hunting and I wonder what they are doing when it comes to shooting the animal, I see them fluffing about for what feels like an eternity trying to get the breathing/shot placement right, meanwhile I could have shot the thing several times over. I blame the high mag scopes that some use to hunt with, those things show every heart beat etc which can cause one to 2nd guess themselves to some degree - my mate love his "Hubbles" as I call em, I reckon most of his rifles are way overscoped for the distances he shoots ferals at.


Actually I find it very unnatural to not follow this routine, in fact so much so I find myself doing it even when I'm watching movies that have scenes where the point-of-view is through a rifle scope :wtf: I guess It's just ingrained into my psyche now. This technique is particularly applicable to smallbore and fullbore target shooting using open sights and a sling in the prone position. Consistent accuracy boils down to employing the exact same motions and muscle movements every shot. Here is another great article http://www.tsw.net.nz/files/Beginners%2 ... 0prone.pdf summarizing the primary aspects to target rifle - exactly how I was trained. There's a lot to be learned from that pdf about rifle shooting in general.

Do you need to follow this when hunting? Well considering pinpoint accuracy is not the most important aspect (rather fast target acquisition), probably not; but you can always cull the three breaths down to two or one if you need to speed things up (which it sounds like you more or less already do this anyway BF). I guess that's what I do in the field when things happen quickly (which is fairly rare for me considering I don't hunt that often).

I guess it really boils down to what your long term shooting goals are; either way, having that really solid foundation means you can sculpt the house the sits on top any way you want. And getting back to OP, that's why I feel starting with a 22lr is such a good idea - cheap and pleasant enough to make many, many mistakes without breaking the bank (or your shoulder). The bigger boys can come later :thumbsup:
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by Bigjobss » 29 Jan 2017, 4:54 pm

Hey OP,
MK10 VS MK70, in my humble oppinion I dont see any value in spending more on the MK10, as far as I can tell its quality of wood and engraving that the extra cash is for, spending heaps on a shotty is a slippery slope and once you get a quality piece like a Miroku the entry models are really very good, especially considering their current prices have come down to only about $1500.

I shot both and ended up with a MK70 which points well for me. I was looking at a berretta at the same time that was about twice the price of the Miroku, it came up like crap compared to the MK70, if it was the other way around I would have spent more on the Beretta, you need a shottie to come up naturally.
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by FlyingStick » 30 Jan 2017, 5:25 am

Hi All,

Been rather busy the last few days organizing my license and visiting gun shops to see what's out there.

The 22 vs 223 was a difficult decision. I know I will eventually end up with both however I've had to consider the immediate situation and make a choice from there.

I've ended up throwing some money at an absolutely stunning Grade 3 Miroku MK10 and a Howa 1500 chambered in 223.

The MK10 was an interesting decision - I had the Grade 1 and Grade 3 sitting right next to eachother (I honestly went in there ready to buy the G1), and that was pretty much the end of the Grade 1 for me. The 3 is just absolutely stunning with a beautiful stock and beautifully detailed receiver. I know in the end this doesn't do anything for my shooting, however I can see this beautiful gun in my sons hands when I'm not around anymore and that's worth a fair bit of coin in my mind.

As mentioned - I went 223 just to enable me to get into some some bigger vermin like fox. I did note the price difference in ammo which is substantial, I'm hoping I can find a 2nd hand 22 in the 2nd half of the year (what sites do you guys use?). Alternatively. I have access to 2 22MAGs which I could use to hone my skills, cheapishly.

Next mission is scope for the Howa. Currently looking at a Vortex Diamondback 4x-12x x 40. Open to suggestions though!

Appreciate all the advice guys!
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by happyhunter » 30 Jan 2017, 5:36 am

Congrats on the guns.
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by bigfellascott » 30 Jan 2017, 5:58 am

FlyingStick wrote:Hi All,

Been rather busy the last few days organizing my license and visiting gun shops to see what's out there.

The 22 vs 223 was a difficult decision. I know I will eventually end up with both however I've had to consider the immediate situation and make a choice from there.

I've ended up throwing some money at an absolutely stunning Grade 3 Miroku MK10 and a Howa 1500 chambered in 223.

The MK10 was an interesting decision - I had the Grade 1 and Grade 3 sitting right next to eachother (I honestly went in there ready to buy the G1), and that was pretty much the end of the Grade 1 for me. The 3 is just absolutely stunning with a beautiful stock and beautifully detailed receiver. I know in the end this doesn't do anything for my shooting, however I can see this beautiful gun in my sons hands when I'm not around anymore and that's worth a fair bit of coin in my mind.

As mentioned - I went 223 just to enable me to get into some some bigger vermin like fox. I did note the price difference in ammo which is substantial, I'm hoping I can find a 2nd hand 22 in the 2nd half of the year (what sites do you guys use?). Alternatively. I have access to 2 22MAGs which I could use to hone my skills, cheapishly.

Next mission is scope for the Howa. Currently looking at a Vortex Diamondback 4x-12x x 40. Open to suggestions though!

Appreciate all the advice guys!


Well done mate and nice choice of shotgun and CF rifle, they will both serve you well and suit your needs well. What Howa did you go for, the Mini or the Short Action?

As for the 22 I'd get your local gunshop to keep an eye out for something decent for you (tell them what you want brand wise and quality wise and I'm sure they will look after you. As for scopes I like the Nikon brand for cheap good quality scopes that stack up well against the more expensive stuff. Leupold are good, nothing wrong with the Vortex range either - I wouldn't bother the the Tasco range.

Magnification range wise I'd keep it to max of 12x (higher mag means you will see your heart beats etc more through the scope which can be off putting to some degree) and I like the 50mm Objectives for their light gathering ability

Good luck and enjoy the new purchases. :thumbsup:
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by FlyingStick » 30 Jan 2017, 6:11 am

Embarrasingly. I don't remember the name. I think it may be the sporter? Was a rubberish texture stock (HOGUE), floorpan (no mag, preferred the simplicity of the floor pan and that if I wished I could go to a mag with a kit), blue non fluted barrel, was the normal action/bolt length.
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by bigfellascott » 30 Jan 2017, 6:30 am

FlyingStick wrote:Embarrasingly. I don't remember the name. I think it may be the sporter? Was a rubberish texture stock (HOGUE), floorpan (no mag, preferred the simplicity of the floor pan and that if I wished I could go to a mag with a kit), blue non fluted barrel, was the normal action/bolt length.


Yeah that's the short action sporter by the sounds of it, which will suit you well and I too like the Floor Plate over the DBM setups because you can top load them which suits spotlighting better IMO (no big deal either way) but I do like the ability to just drop one in the chamber quickly when needed.

Get yourself a Bipod when you can (27" length if possible) as it will allow you to sit and whistle foxes and really aids in getting the shot placement right compared to shooting off hand so to speak (you'll get better results using a rest of some sort out in the field).

Yeah the Hogue stocks are ok (not my cup of tea) all mine sit in Boyds Laminated Stocks but see how it goes and if you're happy with it that's all that matters.

Anyway mate enjoy the new gear. :drinks:
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by bigfellascott » 30 Jan 2017, 6:56 am

in2anity wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:Is this info applicable to hunting situations or just target shooting? Can't say I've bothered with it hunting, infact I don't pay too much attention to the breathing side of it at all to be honest, just a quick breath in, exhale whilst the xhairs are on the target then send it on it's way. I can see where it's needed for target shooting but completely unnecessary for hunting situations where quick shots can often be the norm where it's a matter of getting the Xhairs on the target and send it asap before they bugger off.

I've often been out with people hunting and I wonder what they are doing when it comes to shooting the animal, I see them fluffing about for what feels like an eternity trying to get the breathing/shot placement right, meanwhile I could have shot the thing several times over. I blame the high mag scopes that some use to hunt with, those things show every heart beat etc which can cause one to 2nd guess themselves to some degree - my mate love his "Hubbles" as I call em, I reckon most of his rifles are way overscoped for the distances he shoots ferals at.


Actually I find it very unnatural to not follow this routine, in fact so much so I find myself doing it even when I'm watching movies that have scenes where the point-of-view is through a rifle scope :wtf: I guess It's just ingrained into my psyche now. This technique is particularly applicable to smallbore and fullbore target shooting using open sights and a sling in the prone position. Consistent accuracy boils down to employing the exact same motions and muscle movements every shot. Here is another great article http://www.tsw.net.nz/files/Beginners%2 ... 0prone.pdf summarizing the primary aspects to target rifle - exactly how I was trained. There's a lot to be learned from that pdf about rifle shooting in general.

Do you need to follow this when hunting? Well considering pinpoint accuracy is not the most important aspect (rather fast target acquisition), probably not; but you can always cull the three breaths down to two or one if you need to speed things up (which it sounds like you more or less already do this anyway BF). I guess that's what I do in the field when things happen quickly (which is fairly rare for me considering I don't hunt that often).

I guess it really boils down to what your long term shooting goals are; either way, having that really solid foundation means you can sculpt the house the sits on top any way you want. And getting back to OP, that's why I feel starting with a 22lr is such a good idea - cheap and pleasant enough to make many, many mistakes without breaking the bank (or your shoulder). The bigger boys can come later :thumbsup:


Cheers for that mate - I can definitely see where it is important and yeah I do do something similar at times, just depends on what type of shooting I'm doing ie varminting or stalking (varminting you can usually take your time and get nice and relaxed and concentrate on all the diff bits and pieces re breathing etc, stalking well that can be a bit of a mixture but often it's spot something and get the shot off ASAP as its aware of your presence and getting ready to bolt. I will have to have a look at the PDF you posted and see if theres anything there I may or may not be doing right. :drinks:
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by FlyingStick » 30 Jan 2017, 7:01 am

bigfellascott wrote:As for scopes I like the Nikon brand for cheap good quality scopes that stack up well against the more expensive stuff. Leupold are good, nothing wrong with the Vortex range either - I wouldn't bother the the Tasco range.

Magnification range wise I'd keep it to max of 12x (higher mag means you will see your heart beats etc more through the scope which can be off putting to some degree) and I like the 50mm Objectives for their light gathering ability


The scope selection is difficult - I'd like the 50 obj lens (I anticipate some shooting in lower light) however I'm finding within my budget, to get the 50mm, I will need to forgo magnification (go to a x3 - x9) to get it. The alternative is get the higher magnification and get the 40-42mm obj lens.

Which way should I go or should I stretch the budget a little to get into the Nikon Prostaff 5 (3.5-14x50 - ~$700). Was hoping to spend $400 or so.
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Re: First firearm or firearms?

Post by bigfellascott » 30 Jan 2017, 7:11 am

FlyingStick wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:As for scopes I like the Nikon brand for cheap good quality scopes that stack up well against the more expensive stuff. Leupold are good, nothing wrong with the Vortex range either - I wouldn't bother the the Tasco range.

Magnification range wise I'd keep it to max of 12x (higher mag means you will see your heart beats etc more through the scope which can be off putting to some degree) and I like the 50mm Objectives for their light gathering ability


The scope selection is difficult - I'd like the 50 obj lens (I anticipate some shooting in lower light) however I'm finding within my budget, to get the 50mm, I will need to forgo magnification (go to a x3 - x9) to get it. The alternative is get the higher magnification and get the 40-42mm obj lens.

Which way should I go or should I stretch the budget a little to get into the Nikon Prostaff 5 (3.5-14x50 - ~$700). Was hoping to spend $400 or so.


I was running the 3-9x50mm Nikon prostaff on my Howa 204 Varmint which I loved (plenty of bunnies have had their heads removed out around 300m with that outfit) so was good enough to shoot things that small that far out, it's very good in low light, have since put it on my 308 Tikka as I needed a scope on it and have put the 6.5-20x50 Zeiss on the 204 as I had it sitting on the shelf doing nothing but I can't see myself using the high mag range as I was quite happy with the 3-9 mag range for my shooting needs (used to love the high mag scopes but honestly I found the lower mag range to be more user friendly for the reasons I mentioned earlier re heart beat etc.

I've compared that little Nikon Prostaff to many many high end euro and USA made scopes worth well over $2k plus and honestly it doesn't give bugger all away to them (even those that own the expensive stuff say the same) and were very surprised just how well it compared to their gear side by side in all diff light conditions.
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bigfellascott
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