First firearm or firearms?

[in2anity]

This chuckhawks article really struck a cord with me: http://www.chuckhawks.com/off-hand_shooting.htm get yourself a 22 and resist the urge to plink off a bench/rest/bipod - the low cost of ammo means you've got nothing to lose but everything to gain by challenging yourself. Learn to shoot well offhand, then everything else seems like cheating.

Cheers mate thats some very interesting info

FYI the lazy eight is only really applicable to standing offhand - classic three position and prone, military style shooting demands a slightly different breath control strategy: three deep breaths, then hold on the exhale. try to squeeze the round away within a few seconds between heart-beats but not too long, as the lactic acid builds, you start to shake, and your vision degrades. in this case, look away at some green grass, catch your breath and start all over again. All that stuff about posture and natural point of aim is still 100% applicable. At least that's how I was trained to shoot prone fullbore target - and we started on target 22s at 25m - we had to to "graduate" into centerfire after we were consistently scoring 130+ in a 15 shot 150 point match.

[bigfellascott]

This chuckhawks article really struck a cord with me: http://www.chuckhawks.com/off-hand_shooting.htm get yourself a 22 and resist the urge to plink off a bench/rest/bipod - the low cost of ammo means you've got nothing to lose but everything to gain by challenging yourself. Learn to shoot well offhand, then everything else seems like cheating.

Cheers mate thats some very interesting info

FYI the lazy eight is only really applicable to standing offhand - classic three position and prone, military style shooting demands a slightly different breath control strategy: three deep breaths, then hold on the exhale. try to squeeze the round away within a few seconds between heart-beats but not too long, as the lactic acid builds, you start to shake, and your vision degrades. in this case, look away at some green grass, catch your breath and start all over again. All that stuff about posture and natural point of aim is still 100% applicable. At least that's how I was trained to shoot prone fullbore target - and we started on target 22s at 25m - we had to to "graduate" into centerfire after we were consistently scoring 130+ in a 15 shot 150 point match.

Is this info applicable to hunting situations or just target shooting? Can't say I've bothered with it hunting, infact I don't pay too much attention to the breathing side of it at all to be honest, just a quick breath in, exhale whilst the xhairs are on the target then send it on it's way. I can see where it's needed for target shooting but completely unnecessary for hunting situations where quick shots can often be the norm where it's a matter of getting the Xhairs on the target and send it asap before they bugger off.

I've often been out with people hunting and I wonder what they are doing when it comes to shooting the animal, I see them fluffing about for what feels like an eternity trying to get the breathing/shot placement right, meanwhile I could have shot the thing several times over. I blame the high mag scopes that some use to hunt with, those things show every heart beat etc which can cause one to 2nd guess themselves to some degree - my mate love his "Hubbles" as I call em, I reckon most of his rifles are way overscoped for the distances he shoots ferals at.

[in2anity]

Is this info applicable to hunting situations or just target shooting? Can't say I've bothered with it hunting, infact I don't pay too much attention to the breathing side of it at all to be honest, just a quick breath in, exhale whilst the xhairs are on the target then send it on it's way. I can see where it's needed for target shooting but completely unnecessary for hunting situations where quick shots can often be the norm where it's a matter of getting the Xhairs on the target and send it asap before they bugger off.

I've often been out with people hunting and I wonder what they are doing when it comes to shooting the animal, I see them fluffing about for what feels like an eternity trying to get the breathing/shot placement right, meanwhile I could have shot the thing several times over. I blame the high mag scopes that some use to hunt with, those things show every heart beat etc which can cause one to 2nd guess themselves to some degree - my mate love his "Hubbles" as I call em, I reckon most of his rifles are way overscoped for the distances he shoots ferals at.

Actually I find it very unnatural to not follow this routine, in fact so much so I find myself doing it even when I'm watching movies that have scenes where the point-of-view is through a rifle scope I guess It's just ingrained into my psyche now. This technique is particularly applicable to smallbore and fullbore target shooting using open sights and a sling in the prone position. Consistent accuracy boils down to employing the exact same motions and muscle movements every shot. Here is another great article http://www.tsw.net.nz/files/Beginners%2 ... 0prone.pdf summarizing the primary aspects to target rifle - exactly how I was trained. There's a lot to be learned from that pdf about rifle shooting in general.

Do you need to follow this when hunting? Well considering pinpoint accuracy is not the most important aspect (rather fast target acquisition), probably not; but you can always cull the three breaths down to two or one if you need to speed things up (which it sounds like you more or less already do this anyway BF). I guess that's what I do in the field when things happen quickly (which is fairly rare for me considering I don't hunt that often).

I guess it really boils down to what your long term shooting goals are; either way, having that really solid foundation means you can sculpt the house the sits on top any way you want. And getting back to OP, that's why I feel starting with a 22lr is such a good idea - cheap and pleasant enough to make many, many mistakes without breaking the bank (or your shoulder). The bigger boys can come later

[Bigjobss]

Hey OP,
MK10 VS MK70, in my humble oppinion I dont see any value in spending more on the MK10, as far as I can tell its quality of wood and engraving that the extra cash is for, spending heaps on a shotty is a slippery slope and once you get a quality piece like a Miroku the entry models are really very good, especially considering their current prices have come down to only about $1500.

I shot both and ended up with a MK70 which points well for me. I was looking at a berretta at the same time that was about twice the price of the Miroku, it came up like crap compared to the MK70, if it was the other way around I would have spent more on the Beretta, you need a shottie to come up naturally.

[FlyingStick]

Hi All,

Been rather busy the last few days organizing my license and visiting gun shops to see what's out there.

The 22 vs 223 was a difficult decision. I know I will eventually end up with both however I've had to consider the immediate situation and make a choice from there.

I've ended up throwing some money at an absolutely stunning Grade 3 Miroku MK10 and a Howa 1500 chambered in 223.

The MK10 was an interesting decision - I had the Grade 1 and Grade 3 sitting right next to eachother (I honestly went in there ready to buy the G1), and that was pretty much the end of the Grade 1 for me. The 3 is just absolutely stunning with a beautiful stock and beautifully detailed receiver. I know in the end this doesn't do anything for my shooting, however I can see this beautiful gun in my sons hands when I'm not around anymore and that's worth a fair bit of coin in my mind.

As mentioned - I went 223 just to enable me to get into some some bigger vermin like fox. I did note the price difference in ammo which is substantial, I'm hoping I can find a 2nd hand 22 in the 2nd half of the year (what sites do you guys use?). Alternatively. I have access to 2 22MAGs which I could use to hone my skills, cheapishly.

Next mission is scope for the Howa. Currently looking at a Vortex Diamondback 4x-12x x 40. Open to suggestions though!

Appreciate all the advice guys!

[happyhunter]

Congrats on the guns.

[bigfellascott]

Hi All,

Been rather busy the last few days organizing my license and visiting gun shops to see what's out there.

The 22 vs 223 was a difficult decision. I know I will eventually end up with both however I've had to consider the immediate situation and make a choice from there.

I've ended up throwing some money at an absolutely stunning Grade 3 Miroku MK10 and a Howa 1500 chambered in 223.

The MK10 was an interesting decision - I had the Grade 1 and Grade 3 sitting right next to eachother (I honestly went in there ready to buy the G1), and that was pretty much the end of the Grade 1 for me. The 3 is just absolutely stunning with a beautiful stock and beautifully detailed receiver. I know in the end this doesn't do anything for my shooting, however I can see this beautiful gun in my sons hands when I'm not around anymore and that's worth a fair bit of coin in my mind.

As mentioned - I went 223 just to enable me to get into some some bigger vermin like fox. I did note the price difference in ammo which is substantial, I'm hoping I can find a 2nd hand 22 in the 2nd half of the year (what sites do you guys use?). Alternatively. I have access to 2 22MAGs which I could use to hone my skills, cheapishly.

Next mission is scope for the Howa. Currently looking at a Vortex Diamondback 4x-12x x 40. Open to suggestions though!

Appreciate all the advice guys!

Well done mate and nice choice of shotgun and CF rifle, they will both serve you well and suit your needs well. What Howa did you go for, the Mini or the Short Action?

As for the 22 I'd get your local gunshop to keep an eye out for something decent for you (tell them what you want brand wise and quality wise and I'm sure they will look after you. As for scopes I like the Nikon brand for cheap good quality scopes that stack up well against the more expensive stuff. Leupold are good, nothing wrong with the Vortex range either - I wouldn't bother the the Tasco range.

Magnification range wise I'd keep it to max of 12x (higher mag means you will see your heart beats etc more through the scope which can be off putting to some degree) and I like the 50mm Objectives for their light gathering ability

Good luck and enjoy the new purchases.

[FlyingStick]

Embarrasingly. I don't remember the name. I think it may be the sporter? Was a rubberish texture stock (HOGUE), floorpan (no mag, preferred the simplicity of the floor pan and that if I wished I could go to a mag with a kit), blue non fluted barrel, was the normal action/bolt length.

[bigfellascott]

Embarrasingly. I don't remember the name. I think it may be the sporter? Was a rubberish texture stock (HOGUE), floorpan (no mag, preferred the simplicity of the floor pan and that if I wished I could go to a mag with a kit), blue non fluted barrel, was the normal action/bolt length.

Yeah that's the short action sporter by the sounds of it, which will suit you well and I too like the Floor Plate over the DBM setups because you can top load them which suits spotlighting better IMO (no big deal either way) but I do like the ability to just drop one in the chamber quickly when needed.

Get yourself a Bipod when you can (27" length if possible) as it will allow you to sit and whistle foxes and really aids in getting the shot placement right compared to shooting off hand so to speak (you'll get better results using a rest of some sort out in the field).

Yeah the Hogue stocks are ok (not my cup of tea) all mine sit in Boyds Laminated Stocks but see how it goes and if you're happy with it that's all that matters.

Anyway mate enjoy the new gear.

[bigfellascott]

Is this info applicable to hunting situations or just target shooting? Can't say I've bothered with it hunting, infact I don't pay too much attention to the breathing side of it at all to be honest, just a quick breath in, exhale whilst the xhairs are on the target then send it on it's way. I can see where it's needed for target shooting but completely unnecessary for hunting situations where quick shots can often be the norm where it's a matter of getting the Xhairs on the target and send it asap before they bugger off.

I've often been out with people hunting and I wonder what they are doing when it comes to shooting the animal, I see them fluffing about for what feels like an eternity trying to get the breathing/shot placement right, meanwhile I could have shot the thing several times over. I blame the high mag scopes that some use to hunt with, those things show every heart beat etc which can cause one to 2nd guess themselves to some degree - my mate love his "Hubbles" as I call em, I reckon most of his rifles are way overscoped for the distances he shoots ferals at.

Actually I find it very unnatural to not follow this routine, in fact so much so I find myself doing it even when I'm watching movies that have scenes where the point-of-view is through a rifle scope I guess It's just ingrained into my psyche now. This technique is particularly applicable to smallbore and fullbore target shooting using open sights and a sling in the prone position. Consistent accuracy boils down to employing the exact same motions and muscle movements every shot. Here is another great article http://www.tsw.net.nz/files/Beginners%2 ... 0prone.pdf summarizing the primary aspects to target rifle - exactly how I was trained. There's a lot to be learned from that pdf about rifle shooting in general.

Do you need to follow this when hunting? Well considering pinpoint accuracy is not the most important aspect (rather fast target acquisition), probably not; but you can always cull the three breaths down to two or one if you need to speed things up (which it sounds like you more or less already do this anyway BF). I guess that's what I do in the field when things happen quickly (which is fairly rare for me considering I don't hunt that often).

I guess it really boils down to what your long term shooting goals are; either way, having that really solid foundation means you can sculpt the house the sits on top any way you want. And getting back to OP, that's why I feel starting with a 22lr is such a good idea - cheap and pleasant enough to make many, many mistakes without breaking the bank (or your shoulder). The bigger boys can come later

Cheers for that mate - I can definitely see where it is important and yeah I do do something similar at times, just depends on what type of shooting I'm doing ie varminting or stalking (varminting you can usually take your time and get nice and relaxed and concentrate on all the diff bits and pieces re breathing etc, stalking well that can be a bit of a mixture but often it's spot something and get the shot off ASAP as its aware of your presence and getting ready to bolt. I will have to have a look at the PDF you posted and see if theres anything there I may or may not be doing right.

[FlyingStick]

As for scopes I like the Nikon brand for cheap good quality scopes that stack up well against the more expensive stuff. Leupold are good, nothing wrong with the Vortex range either - I wouldn't bother the the Tasco range.

Magnification range wise I'd keep it to max of 12x (higher mag means you will see your heart beats etc more through the scope which can be off putting to some degree) and I like the 50mm Objectives for their light gathering ability

The scope selection is difficult - I'd like the 50 obj lens (I anticipate some shooting in lower light) however I'm finding within my budget, to get the 50mm, I will need to forgo magnification (go to a x3 - x9) to get it. The alternative is get the higher magnification and get the 40-42mm obj lens.

Which way should I go or should I stretch the budget a little to get into the Nikon Prostaff 5 (3.5-14x50 - ~$700). Was hoping to spend $400 or so.

[bigfellascott]

As for scopes I like the Nikon brand for cheap good quality scopes that stack up well against the more expensive stuff. Leupold are good, nothing wrong with the Vortex range either - I wouldn't bother the the Tasco range.

Magnification range wise I'd keep it to max of 12x (higher mag means you will see your heart beats etc more through the scope which can be off putting to some degree) and I like the 50mm Objectives for their light gathering ability

The scope selection is difficult - I'd like the 50 obj lens (I anticipate some shooting in lower light) however I'm finding within my budget, to get the 50mm, I will need to forgo magnification (go to a x3 - x9) to get it. The alternative is get the higher magnification and get the 40-42mm obj lens.

Which way should I go or should I stretch the budget a little to get into the Nikon Prostaff 5 (3.5-14x50 - ~$700). Was hoping to spend $400 or so.

I was running the 3-9x50mm Nikon prostaff on my Howa 204 Varmint which I loved (plenty of bunnies have had their heads removed out around 300m with that outfit) so was good enough to shoot things that small that far out, it's very good in low light, have since put it on my 308 Tikka as I needed a scope on it and have put the 6.5-20x50 Zeiss on the 204 as I had it sitting on the shelf doing nothing but I can't see myself using the high mag range as I was quite happy with the 3-9 mag range for my shooting needs (used to love the high mag scopes but honestly I found the lower mag range to be more user friendly for the reasons I mentioned earlier re heart beat etc.

I've compared that little Nikon Prostaff to many many high end euro and USA made scopes worth well over $2k plus and honestly it doesn't give bugger all away to them (even those that own the expensive stuff say the same) and were very surprised just how well it compared to their gear side by side in all diff light conditions.

[in2anity]

Cheers for that mate - I can definitely see where it is important and yeah I do do something similar at times, just depends on what type of shooting I'm doing ie varminting or stalking (varminting you can usually take your time and get nice and relaxed and concentrate on all the diff bits and pieces re breathing etc, stalking well that can be a bit of a mixture but often it's spot something and get the shot off ASAP as its aware of your presence and getting ready to bolt. I will have to have a look at the PDF you posted and see if theres anything there I may or may not be doing right.

Something else I use which you don't see too often these days is I always use a sling as a stabiliser; whether it be a Ching Sling for my levers, or a m1903 style loop sling for the more accurate stuff/plinking (or when I have more time to setup in the field). Ching slings are the best compromise between stability and speed of acquisition IMO - this short video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-oHZQ2smpA shows just how fast one can fall into position using a Ching Sling, and I reckon it gives you maybe a 33% increase in stability. Sadly, using the sling as a stabiliser seems like a lost art these days

[bigfellascott]

Cheers for that mate - I can definitely see where it is important and yeah I do do something similar at times, just depends on what type of shooting I'm doing ie varminting or stalking (varminting you can usually take your time and get nice and relaxed and concentrate on all the diff bits and pieces re breathing etc, stalking well that can be a bit of a mixture but often it's spot something and get the shot off ASAP as its aware of your presence and getting ready to bolt. I will have to have a look at the PDF you posted and see if theres anything there I may or may not be doing right.

Something else I use which you don't see too often these days is I always use a sling as a stabiliser; whether it be a Ching Sling for my levers, or a m1903 style loop sling for the more accurate stuff/plinking (or when I have more time to setup in the field). Ching slings are the best compromise between stability and speed of acquisition IMO - this short video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-oHZQ2smpA shows just how fast one can fall into position using a Ching Sling, and I reckon it gives you maybe a 33% increase in stability. Sadly, using the sling as a stabiliser seems like a lost art these days

Yep I use my slings all the time, definitely helps when nothing else is available (I wrap them around my forearm type thing) definitely better than just straight off hand shooting I find (sadly I'm too wobbly on the feet to not need something to help get the best results). I tried a Mono Pod stick the other week and it didn't do bugger all for me and I think I also tried the two stick version and it wasn't much chop either (joys of getting older I guess) the best I've found for me is the good ol bipod but that isn't always an option depending on terrain and type of shooting I'm doing.

[happyhunter]

my mate love his "Hubbles" as I call em..

hahaha!! Hubbles! The best description of over scoped ever

[Gwion]

As for scopes I like the Nikon brand for cheap good quality scopes that stack up well against the more expensive stuff. Leupold are good, nothing wrong with the Vortex range either - I wouldn't bother the the Tasco range.

Magnification range wise I'd keep it to max of 12x (higher mag means you will see your heart beats etc more through the scope which can be off putting to some degree) and I like the 50mm Objectives for their light gathering ability

The scope selection is difficult - I'd like the 50 obj lens (I anticipate some shooting in lower light) however I'm finding within my budget, to get the 50mm, I will need to forgo magnification (go to a x3 - x9) to get it. The alternative is get the higher magnification and get the 40-42mm obj lens.

Which way should I go or should I stretch the budget a little to get into the Nikon Prostaff 5 (3.5-14x50 - ~$700). Was hoping to spend $400 or so.

Mate. I have the Vortex Diamondback you are talking about on one of my 22lr with adjustable objective and the 3-9 version on my 223rem. Both work fine in the failing light and under a spot. I can shoot right up to and through dusk with them, no probs; if i can see it with my naked eye, i can see it with my scope.

My only suggestion would be to go up one step to the Diamondback HP. It has better glass and a turret adjustable parallax rather than an adjustable objective lens. I'd go the 3-12x42 version. http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/di ... iflescopes

[bigfellascott]

As for scopes I like the Nikon brand for cheap good quality scopes that stack up well against the more expensive stuff. Leupold are good, nothing wrong with the Vortex range either - I wouldn't bother the the Tasco range.

Magnification range wise I'd keep it to max of 12x (higher mag means you will see your heart beats etc more through the scope which can be off putting to some degree) and I like the 50mm Objectives for their light gathering ability

The scope selection is difficult - I'd like the 50 obj lens (I anticipate some shooting in lower light) however I'm finding within my budget, to get the 50mm, I will need to forgo magnification (go to a x3 - x9) to get it. The alternative is get the higher magnification and get the 40-42mm obj lens.

Which way should I go or should I stretch the budget a little to get into the Nikon Prostaff 5 (3.5-14x50 - ~$700). Was hoping to spend $400 or so.

Mate. I have the Vortex Diamondback you are talking about on one of my 22lr with adjustable objective and the 3-9 version on my 223rem. Both work fine in the failing light and under a spot. I can shoot right up to and through dusk with them, no probs; if i can see it with my naked eye, i can see it with my scope.

My only suggestion would be to go up one step to the Diamondback HP. It has better glass and a turret adjustable parallax rather than an adjustable objective lens. I'd go the 3-12x42 version. http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/di ... iflescopes

I find adjustable objectives a PITA in a hunting outfit (the one thing I don't like about my Zeiss) ok for varminting type work or target shooting but for a walkabout outfit where you really don't have time to stuff around they are no good, easier just to use a scope that is designed for quick focus point and shoot.

Just my opinion and something for the OP to keep in mind A OJ are good for target work or long long range type work but really more of a hindrance in hunting situations where quick shots are more common (KISS principal springs to mind)

[bigfellascott]

my mate love his "Hubbles" as I call em..

hahaha!! Hubbles! The best description of over scoped ever

Very appropriate I find and he always refers to em as Hubbles now too So not needed in a hunting outfit but he loves shooting a few groups too so they definately come in handy in those types of situations for sure.

[Gwion]

Yeah, i agree about AO but the turret parallax adjustment is so much quicker and simpler. Just set it for the middle of the usual range you shoot at (say, 150m for a 223rem) and leave it there while hunting. Being able to dial it right back to 10m quickly when something pops up right in front of you is very handy. Lost count of the times i had to let critters (pest control) get away because they were just too close to see through my fixed parallax scope. Anyway, there are pros and cons to having a parallax adjustment, or not having one, depending on the situation.I wouldn't by another AO scope (too fiddly, cant adjust it easily from shooting position) but would by one with a parallax dial turret.

At any rate. If the OP goes for the diamondback he shouldn't have too much issue in low light.

[bigfellascott]

I take it you mean side focus? Yeah it's a little easier but still something else to fiddle with rather than the animal too shoot. I generally do as you suggest and just leave it set on 100m myself as most scopes are set for that.

After using high mag scopes and lower mag scopes I definitely find the lower mag more user friendly, wider field of view often less detectable movement whilst looking through the scope and handier for the close in stuff and generally better in low light conditions.

Another brand worth a look is the meopta range - plenty of good reviews and happy owners.

[Gwion]

I take it you mean side focus? Yeah it's a little easier but still something else to fiddle with rather than the animal too shoot. I generally do as you suggest and just leave it set on 100m myself as most scopes are set for that.

After using high mag scopes and lower mag scopes I definitely find the lower mag more user friendly, wider field of view often less detectable movement whilst looking through the scope and handier for the close in stuff and generally better in low light conditions.

Another brand worth a look is the meopta range - plenty of good reviews and happy owners.

Yep. Side focus.

My scopes are usually left set at around 6X and only dial out or back if i absolutely need to or if i'm shooting targets for load or ammo testing or sighting in.