6.5 Creedmoor

[Gamerancher]

With regards comparisons between 6.5, 7mm and .308cal, as can be seen in the information below, for the given 2500f/s velocity the 6.5 shoots both flatter with less wind drift and better retained energy at long range than both the 7mm and .308 calibre bullets.
This is why the various 6.5mm's are very popular in long range shooting.
Yes, it is a slightly lighter bullet and yes, you can get higher velocities out of each, but this is only a "for instance" example. Trying to compare apples and apples.

6.5 Creedmoor

Ballistic Coefficient 0.626 Velocity (ft/s) 2500 Weight (grains) 142
Maximum Range (yds) 600 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 1000
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 75 Humidity (%) 0.78

Ballistics Results - 6.5 Creedmoor
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) WIND DRIFT (IN)
Muzzle 2500 1971 -1.5
100 2373 1775 2.2 0.6
200 2250 1596 0 2.3
300 2130 1430 -9.2 5.3
400 2014 1279 -26.1 9.7
500 1902 1140 -51.6 15.6
600 1794 1014 -86.7 23.1

7-08 Rem

Ballistic Coefficient 0.429 Velocity (ft/s) 2500 Weight (grains) 150
Maximum Range (yds) 600 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 1000
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 75 Humidity (%) 0.78

Ballistics Results - 7-08
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) WIND DRIFT (IN)
Muzzle 2500 2082 -1.5 0
100 2316 1786 2.5 0.9
200 2139 1524 0 3.5
300 1971 1294 -10.1 8.1
400 1811 1092 -29.4 14.9
500 1660 918 -58.9 24.2
600 1521 770 -101.3 36.4

.308 Win
Ballistic Coefficient 0.390 Velocity (ft/s) 2500 Weight (grains) 150
Maximum Range (yds) 600 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 1000
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 75 Humidity (%) 0.78

Ballistics Results - .308 Win
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) WIND DRIFT (IN)
Muzzle 2500 2082 -1.5
100 2298 1758 2.6 1
200 2105 1476 0 3.8
300 1922 1230 -10.4 9
400 1749 1019 -30.3 16.7
500 1589 841 -61.6 27.2
600 1442 693 -106.7 41

[Gwion]

How does that work out with a Berger 140 VLD out of the 7-08 with a BC of .510?

At a guess, the gap would close somewhat.

[bladeracer]

With regards comparisons between 6.5, 7mm and .308cal, as can be seen in the information below, for the given 2500f/s velocity the 6.5 shoots both flatter with less wind drift and better retained energy at long range than both the 7mm and .308 calibre bullets.
This is why the various 6.5mm's are very popular in long range shooting.
Yes, it is a slightly lighter bullet and yes, you can get higher velocities out of each, but this is only a "for instance" example. Trying to compare apples and apples.

6.5 Creedmoor

Ballistic Coefficient 0.626 Velocity (ft/s) 2500 Weight (grains) 142
Maximum Range (yds) 600 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 1000
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 75 Humidity (%) 0.78

Ballistics Results - 6.5 Creedmoor
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) WIND DRIFT (IN)
Muzzle 2500 1971 -1.5
100 2373 1775 2.2 0.6
200 2250 1596 0 2.3
300 2130 1430 -9.2 5.3
400 2014 1279 -26.1 9.7
500 1902 1140 -51.6 15.6
600 1794 1014 -86.7 23.1

7-08 Rem

Ballistic Coefficient 0.429 Velocity (ft/s) 2500 Weight (grains) 150
Maximum Range (yds) 600 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 1000
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 75 Humidity (%) 0.78

Ballistics Results - 7-08
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) WIND DRIFT (IN)
Muzzle 2500 2082 -1.5 0
100 2316 1786 2.5 0.9
200 2139 1524 0 3.5
300 1971 1294 -10.1 8.1
400 1811 1092 -29.4 14.9
500 1660 918 -58.9 24.2
600 1521 770 -101.3 36.4

.308 Win
Ballistic Coefficient 0.390 Velocity (ft/s) 2500 Weight (grains) 150
Maximum Range (yds) 600 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 1000
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 75 Humidity (%) 0.78

Ballistics Results - .308 Win
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) WIND DRIFT (IN)
Muzzle 2500 2082 -1.5
100 2298 1758 2.6 1
200 2105 1476 0 3.8
300 1922 1230 -10.4 9
400 1749 1019 -30.3 16.7
500 1589 841 -61.6 27.2
600 1442 693 -106.7 41

I don't think you are comparing apple to apples though with this example. To be able to use the 142gn 6.5mm bullet will likely require a custom barrel.
Try running the same numbers with the 130gn .335BC 6.5mm bullet that you'd be shooting in most off-the-shelf rifles.
Or if you want to know the absolute best case try the 7mm 180gn ELD-M .796BC.

[Gamerancher]

Reply to Gwion,
Yes, it does. The 6.5 still has the edge though. I have both and my results have been in line with the data. I used to have a 6.5mm/.257 Ackley. That thing would send Sierra 155gr match kings down range @ 3000f/s, shot flat and straight, would put 1 & 1/2 " 5 shot groups @ 500m. Bit hard on throats though.

140gr 7mm .510BC.
Muzzle 2500 1943 -1.5 0
100 2344 1709 2.4 0.7
200 2195 1497 0 2.9
300 2050 1307 -9.7 6.7
400 1912 1136 -27.6 12.2
500 1779 984 -55.1 19.7
600 1654 850 -93.6 29.4

[sungazer]

Like wise if you were using the Berger 155 gr (VLD Match target, Match Fullbore Target, Match Hybrid Target) or the Sierra 155 gr HPBT Palma Match King, 2155, 2156.
Perhaps a better comparison would be to use the maximum weight projectile and powder combination as listed in ADI and then to a comparison as that would be the Calibers best potential.

Sending a Sierra 155 Match King at 2940 or above is the standard practice and load for most competitors as it keeps the projectile above supersonic at the 1000 yds so you don't get the issues with the trans sonic zone. Its not that big of a load when you use a 30 inch barrel aging pretty standard for target rifles.

[bladeracer]

Reply to Gwion,
Yes, it does. The 6.5 still has the edge though. I have both and my results have been in line with the data. I used to have a 6.5mm/.257 Ackley. That thing would send Sierra 155gr match kings down range @ 3000f/s, shot flat and straight, would put 1 & 1/2 " 5 shot groups @ 500m. Bit hard on throats though.

140gr 7mm .510BC.
Muzzle 2500 1943 -1.5 0
100 2344 1709 2.4 0.7
200 2195 1497 0 2.9
300 2050 1307 -9.7 6.7
400 1912 1136 -27.6 12.2
500 1779 984 -55.1 19.7
600 1654 850 -93.6 29.4

Where do you get 6.5mm 155gn Sierra Matchkings?
And what twist do they require?

[bladeracer]

However on my hunting rifles I like the First Focal Plane...

You don't find the FFP reticle becomes obstructive at longer ranges though?

[Gamerancher]

Reply to Bladeracer, et al,
So maybe one apple was a"granny-smith" Still , was implying similar weights at same MV's.
Yes, as I said, you can change the ingredients for the various calibres and the results will be different.( please refer to the 1st line of my original post)
As for the 180gr 7mm ELD-M, you 'aint running that bullet in an "off the shelf" 7-08 rifle either.
You need a 1 in 8" twist rate to run the 142gr 6.5mm. Pretty sure any factory rifle chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor will have 1 in 8".
I built mine with a 1 in 7.5" twist rate, just because.
Also can't find the bullet you are refering to,"130gr, .335BC". Just had a quick look and found numerous 6.5's from 108gr and up and all had BC's above .450.
Even a Hornady interlock, a spire point, flat based hunting bullet has a BC of .445.

Sierra don't make the 6.5mm 155gr MK's anymore, pity, they were a great bullet.

[bladeracer]

Reply to Bladeracer, et al,
So maybe one apple was a"granny-smith" Still , was implying similar weights at same MV's.
Yes, as I said, you can change the ingredients for the various calibres and the results will be different.( please refer to the 1st line of my original post)
As for the 180gr 7mm ELD-M, you 'aint running that bullet in an "off the shelf" 7-08 rifle either.
You need a 1 in 8" twist rate to run the 142gr 6.5mm. Pretty sure any factory rifle chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor will have 1 in 8".
I built mine with a 1 in 7.5" twist rate, just because.
Also can't find the bullet you are refering to,"130gr, .335BC". Just had a quick look and found numerous 6.5's from 108gr and up and all had BC's above .450.
Even a Hornady interlock, a spire point, flat based hunting bullet has a BC of .445.

Sierra don't make the 6.5mm 155gr MK's anymore, pity, they were a great bullet.

Similar weights at similar MV would be fine if you're comparing bullets in the same caliber. Not in different calibers. A larger caliber requires a heavier bullet to offer similar ballistics. If that caliber also allows higher velocity then clearly that is an advantage also.

[Gwion]

Reply to Bladeracer, et al,
So maybe one apple was a"granny-smith" Still , was implying similar weights at same MV's.
Yes, as I said, you can change the ingredients for the various calibres and the results will be different.( please refer to the 1st line of my original post)
As for the 180gr 7mm ELD-M, you 'aint running that bullet in an "off the shelf" 7-08 rifle either.
You need a 1 in 8" twist rate to run the 142gr 6.5mm. Pretty sure any factory rifle chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor will have 1 in 8".
I built mine with a 1 in 7.5" twist rate, just because.
Also can't find the bullet you are refering to,"130gr, .335BC". Just had a quick look and found numerous 6.5's from 108gr and up and all had BC's above .450.
Even a Hornady interlock, a spire point, flat based hunting bullet has a BC of .445.

Sierra don't make the 6.5mm 155gr MK's anymore, pity, they were a great bullet.

Similar weights at similar MV would be fine if you're comparing bullets in the same caliber. Not in different calibers. A larger caliber requires a heavier bullet to offer similar ballistics. If that caliber also allows higher velocity then clearly that is an advantage also.

The whole point of the argument is that the 6.5 has very good ballistics when talking weight for weight.

[Gamerancher]

Go back and check Duncan61's question, that was what I was replying to.

Yes mate, you can get better results with heavy for calibre VLD bullets no matter what, BUT, that comes with the trade off of increased recoil as you go up in calibre. I'm sure a 7" artillery round will outperform a 7mm with regards downrange energy and wind drift but I'd hate to hold onto one.

That's the main reason why I built my Creedmoor. After 3 lots of shoulder surgery I was looking for something that I could still shoot 500m Silhouette with.
The 6.5 Creedmoor has the accuracy I want, the down-range energy required to knock down rams with a much reduced "felt" recoil compared to my 7-08's.
As for ammo and component availability, I had no worries getting a set of dies and the 200 cases,( Hornady ) that I wanted. I also had 2000 projectiles sitting on the shelf so had that side covered. I have a Sako 75 in 6.5 X 55 which is nice to shoot and extremely accurate but I still wanted to go down, in recoil, from there.
It's all good, great discussion is supposed to be the point of the forum isn't it?

[Gwion]

Maybe a better comparison would be to find a bullet of similar BC for each cartridge and see how much powder it takes to push it it, say 2650fps.

For instance, i shoot the 162Amax (stated BC= 0.625, stated SD= 0.287) at approximately 2650fps (from memory, maybe a touch slower: will double check data) from a 24" barrel, using 43.3gn of BM8208:


Calculated Table
Rng / Drop/ Wind / Velocity /Energy
(yd)/ (MOA) / (MOA)/ (FPS)/ (Ft/lb)
0 / 0.0 / 0.0 / 2655.0 /2535.2
100 / -0.0 / 0.5 /2507.7 /2261.7
200 / -1.9 / 1.1/ 2365.0/ 2011.7
300 / -4.5 / 1.7 /2227.2/ 1784.0
400 / -7.5 / 2.4/ 2094.3/ 1577.4
500 / -10.8/ 3.1/ 1965.9 /1390.0
600 / -14.5/ 3.8/ 1841.7 /1219.9
700 / -18.5/ 4.6/ 1721.2/ 1065.5
800 / -22.9/ 5.5/ 1604.2/ 925.6
900 / -27.7/ 6.4/ 1490.8/ 799.3
1000 / -33.1/ 7.3/ 1381.1/ 686.0

[Gwion]

^^^ well that table is impossible to read!

EDIT: edited the table but still pretty illegible!

[Gamerancher]

Yeah, a little bit.
I spent ages cutting and pasting, shuffling numbers and columns on the one that I posted and it turned to sh!t too.

[Gwion]

So, the 7-08 shooting a similar BC bullet at the same velocity (2500fps) beats the Creedmoore out at 600yd on retained energy (only just) but not on retained velocity.

7mm08: range: 600 velFPS: 1719 nrgFT-LB: 1063

6.5 CM: range: 600 velFPS: 1794 nrgFT-LB: 1014

[Gwion]

Yeah, a little bit.
I spent ages cutting and pasting, shuffling numbers and columns on the one that I posted and it turned to sh!t too.

The site doesn't allow for formatting.

What does it take to push those 142 6.5 bullets that 150fps faster (2650) through the Creedmoore?

[Gamerancher]

I worked on 2500f/s, even though you can get a lot better than that out of all cases involved, because we have found in silhouette more is not always better. When hitting steel targets, the higher velocities will cause the bullets to "explode" on impact with the 500m rams and they don't fall. A bit slower velocity seems to give a bit of "dwell" time on the targets and they fall down. Go figure. Also accepted in the sport is that you need +1000ft/lb of energy @ 500m to knock them down. I really am showing a bias towards my chosen sport aren't I.

[Gwion]

Only a bit...

But still, it's good to go with what you know.

I have pushed my 7-08 with the 162 amax to over 2750 but it wasn't as tight to group so i backed off for better precision.

[Gamerancher]

I have been shooting the 139gr Lapua Scenars with 40gr of 2209, haven't crony'ed them but they shoot under 1//2" and knock down the rams.
Hornady factory load data for the 147gr ELD-M is 42.2gr of IMR4831 for 2650f/s.

[Gamerancher]

Okay Gwion, hope this makes sense. I think I'll try to get hold of some of these pills to try. Numbers look good.

6.5 Creedmoor 147gr ELD-M
Ballistic Coefficient 0.697 Velocity (ft/s) 2650 Weight (grains) 147
Maximum Range (yds) 1000 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 1000
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 75 Humidity (%) 0.78
Ballistics Results - 6.5 Creedmoor
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) WIND DRIFT (IN)
Muzzle 2650 2292 -1.5 0
100 2532 2092 2 0.5
200 2417 1907 0 1.9
300 2305 1734 -7.9 4.4
400 2196 1574 -22.4 7.9
500 2089 1425 -44.1 12.6
600 1986 1288 -73.8 18.6
700 1886 1161 -112.3 26
800 1790 1045 -160.5 34.8
900 1697 940 -219.7 45.2
1000 1608 844 -290.9 57.2

Blurb says that BC is measured @ 800 yards.

[sungazer]

However on my hunting rifles I like the First Focal Plane...

You don't find the FFP reticle becomes obstructive at longer ranges though?

It can be a bit obstructive on the lower magnifications. I tend to use as high a magnification as I can for the situation, which then unclutters the view. But yes I agree it can be a bit crowded at times.

[sungazer]

Actually the different experiences across the different sports are all quite informative when you put it all together and step back from it a bit. There are little gems of information that each sport uses to get the most. In the target rifle field more is not always better as well. what a lot of the guys do is run loads across the chronograph. What they are looking for is the smallest standard deviation of speeds as possible. Of course this is dependent a lot on your reloading skill to make absolute consistent rounds. Then the rifle will have a sweet spot sometimes where a certain velocity will show a better consistency.
Having a constant velocity equates to a constant elevation POI.

[Gwion]

Too bad the 6.5 is not legal across the seer hunting board or i would probably go for it rather than the 7mm. BC and retained energy is very good and with a mild recoil, what's there to complain about!?!!

Still, i'll stick with the 7mm, i think. I can't afford to have that many rifles and it is going pretty well for me.

[bladeracer]

What does it take to push those 142 6.5 bullets that 150fps faster (2650) through the Creedmoore?

A couple extra inches on the muzzle?

[Gamerancher]

Yeah mate, it is due to the shoulder and also a head injury that is making me go this way. ( less recoil and muzzle blast )
I still have my 7-08's. Been more than happy with the round.

[bladeracer]

Actually the different experiences across the different sports are all quite informative when you put it all together and step back from it a bit. There are little gems of information that each sport uses to get the most. In the target rifle field more is not always better as well. what a lot of the guys do is run loads across the chronograph. What they are looking for is the smallest standard deviation of speeds as possible. Of course this is dependent a lot on your reloading skill to make absolute consistent rounds. Then the rifle will have a sweet spot sometimes where a certain velocity will show a better consistency.
Having a constant velocity equates to a constant elevation POI.

I don't agree with this as a given. The Ladder test is done to find a window of velocities that give the same elevation at the target - ie. where minor variations in powder charge and/or velocity have no effect on elevation. Then you test within that window to find best accuracy.
You can have very consistent velocities but with poor accuracy.

[bladeracer]

Yeah mate, it is due to the shoulder and also a head injury that is making me go this way. ( less recoil and muzzle blast )
I still have my 7-08's. Been more than happy with the round.

Speaking of shoulder injuries, mine is going to be aching for days after a dozen rounds through the 6.5mm Carcano today - 160gn RN at 1950fps.
5rds into 90mm at 100m off the bench with the open sights. Need to drift the front sight across now to suit.

[Gwion]

What does it take to push those 142 6.5 bullets that 150fps faster (2650) through the Creedmoore?

A couple extra inches on the muzzle?

Yeah. This thread inspired me do a bit of reading on the 6.5cm. Seems it was designed for a 28" barrel to match 6.5x55 ballistics with smaller case, action and less powder. A 30" barrel and slower powder would push it quite quickly.

Still, a 6.5winmag will throw a 160gn bullet up near 2900fps (if you like replacing barrels, that is!).

[Smiley]

Like the 260, Its a great cartridge with exceptional performance, but most of the hype is simply driven buy the US market. 260rem has been around Australia and killing things well for a few decades now.

https://youtu.be/B8Qf1mIEY7E

^^ This. America reinventing the wheel.

[duncan61]

Yes Bladeracer I meant rebarrel.I have mentioned it before that I have a .243 Howa that got damp in a gun safe.The action and bolt are fine but the 22 in steel barrel rusted and its sitting on a plastic stock.A new 28 inch barrel in 260 Rem on a custom stock is what I am researching and this thread has been most informative.