Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action, self loading rifles and other miscellaneous longarms.

Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Ikkarus » 08 Aug 2017, 4:04 pm

Hi all!

This is my first post here, though I've been lurking the forums for a while now (think I've read almost every post!). I've picked up a bunch of good info from a lot of the regulars here, so thank you very much guys.

I have had a .22 for a few years and have been range shooting when I can to try and get myself forming good habits before moving up in calibre.

I recently decided to purchase something of the .223 variety (Heart was set on a T3X Varmint, then got swayed by the LA102 but couldn't source one, so the T3X should arrive by the end of the week :) ).

So after that ramble I'll get to my question. The rifle is available in both a 1in8 and 1in12 twist. At the advice of the LGS chap I've got the 1in12 on order as all I'll be using it for will be shooting paper at the range.

I kinda knew about twist rates vs projectile weight at the time but he seemed to think that as I'll just be shooting paper a 1in12 with 55gr max would be fine.

I do tend to agree, but have I handicapped myself for stability or accuracy at range due to not being able to sling heavier lead?

When I say "range" I'm meaning anything up to 400 as that's the limit where I shoot.

Anyways, seeing that I'm going to be limited to 55gr and under rounds, does that put me at a disadvantage compared to my 1in7 RPR toting mate with his 69gr pills or is it negligible at these distances?

Hope that makes sense and cheers guys in advance for any advice you can give.
Last edited by Ikkarus on 08 Aug 2017, 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ikkarus
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 11
Queensland

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by straightshooter » 08 Aug 2017, 4:42 pm

Ikkarus wrote:Anyways, seeing that I'm going to be limited to 55gr and under rounds, does that put me at a disadvantage compared to my 1in9 RPR toting mate with his 69gr pills or is it negligible at these distances?


Yes, at longer ranges.
"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about."
"There is no expedient to which a man will not resort to avoid the real labor of thinking." Sir Joshua Reynolds
straightshooter
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1263
New South Wales

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Gwion » 08 Aug 2017, 4:47 pm

It will make a difference for windage. I shoot a 1:12 twist with 50gn bullets out to 500yd and it is doable but heavier (longer) bullets with higher BC would stand up to wind better and carry out past 600yd better. My load at 600yd is marginal at best.

IMO, a faster twist with heavier bullets is what you want for target shooting as your max point blank isn't as important as it is in a hunting situation where a lighter, faster bullet will give you a longer max point blank range due to flatter trajectory. Just my take on it.
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Ikkarus » 08 Aug 2017, 4:56 pm

Cheers for the info guys, I figured as much. It'll just be for hitting paper at 200/300 maybe 400 at the range. Will try to keep an eye on the wind due to the lighter bullets but will hopefully go ok. Just another future excuse to buy another rifle. :D
User avatar
Ikkarus
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 11
Queensland

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by bladeracer » 08 Aug 2017, 4:57 pm

Ikkarus wrote:Hi all!

This is my first post here, though I've been lurking the forums for a while now (think I've read almost every post!). I've picked up a bunch of good info from a lot of the regulars here, so thank you very much guys.

I have had a .22 for a few years and have been range shooting when I can to try and get myself forming good habits before moving up in calibre.

I recently decided to purchase something of the .223 variety (Heart was set on a T3X Varmint, then got swayed by the LA102 but couldn't source one, so the T3X should arrive by the end of the week :) ).

So after that ramble I'll get to my question. The rifle is available in both a 1in8 and 1in12 twist. At the advice of the LGS chap I've got the 1in12 on order as all I'll be using it for will be shooting paper at the range.

I kinda knew about twist rates vs projectile weight at the time but he seemed to think that as I'll just be shooting paper a 1in12 with 55gr max would be fine.

I do tend to agree, but have I handicapped myself for stability or accuracy at range due to not being able to sling heavier lead?

When I say "range" I'm meaning anything up to 400 as that's the limit where I shoot.

Anyways, seeing that I'm going to be limited to 55gr and under rounds, does that put me at a disadvantage compared to my 1in9 RPR toting mate with his 69gr pills or is it negligible at these distances?

Hope that makes sense and cheers guys in advance for any advice you can give.


If you're only shooting to 400 yards you'll be fine.
But I personally would've gone with the 8" twist if you're only shooting paper at any range.
The tighter twist lets you run heavier bullets with much higher BC. That makes them shoot flatter, buck the wind better and hold their velocity for longer range.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Ikkarus » 08 Aug 2017, 5:03 pm

Thanks for the reply Bladeracer. I'm kinda wishing I'd gone the 8" now for the versatility. Old mate at the LGS was recommending the 1in12 for target and the 1in8 for hunting. Shrugs. Just looking forward to shooting something with wee bit more punch than the .22LR.
User avatar
Ikkarus
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 11
Queensland

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Gwion » 08 Aug 2017, 5:19 pm

IMO, if you want a fast twist 223 to shoot 80gn bullets for hunting then you should just get a 243 and be done with it. A 243 will shoot the same weight pill much faster and flatter for better MPB and more reliable, emphatic killing.
Basically, I think your GS dude got it arse backwards. Just from my viewpoint, anyway.
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by yoshie » 08 Aug 2017, 5:51 pm

If you're planning of shooting 55s then 1-12 is better, if you plan on shooting anything larger 1-8 is what you want.
User avatar
yoshie
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 641
Australian Capital Territory

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Ikkarus » 08 Aug 2017, 6:31 pm

Gwion, yoshie, thanks for the replies. I'll be sticking to 55gr or less. Just gotta find the brand it likes to eat. And yep Gwion, arse backwards was my thought exactly.
User avatar
Ikkarus
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 11
Queensland

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by duncan61 » 08 Aug 2017, 6:54 pm

The first reloads I ever made in centrefire rifle were 52gn matchkings in .222.Rediculous accuracy.They struggled to make 400 metres but were great from 300 or less.The bit of extra grunt you get out of .223 should get you to 400.the recoil is so mild as to not be a problem.ADI manual has this load
bullet powder dia case weight velocity pressure weight velocity pressure
52 GN. SIE HPBT AR2208 .224" 2.250" 24.0 2905 35100 psi 27.0 C 3330 51900 psi
have fun and welcome to the world of shooting
.22 winchester .22hornet .222 .243 7mm rem mag cbc 12g
User avatar
duncan61
Officer Cadet
Officer Cadet
 
Posts: 1905
Western Australia

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Gamerancher » 08 Aug 2017, 6:57 pm

Considering that just about every bullet above 60gr in .224 calibre is a MATCH bullet, I'd say that your gun-store expert has his head up his ar$e.
User avatar
Gamerancher
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1596
New South Wales

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Gwion » 08 Aug 2017, 7:26 pm

I agree with Sungazer, alter your order. The store is there to sell you what you want and you want a range rifle: 223, heavy barrel, 1:8 twist.
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Ikkarus » 08 Aug 2017, 7:28 pm

Agreed Gamerancher. :lol:

duncan61: thanks heaps for the info on the 300/400 stuff. It'll just be factory loads (for now). Used to watch my late dad reload for his pistols and a kid and was always fascinated by it. I've no doubt the bug will bite and I'll start to go down that path in the future.

sungazer: yeah the thought had crossed my mind a few times about trying to swap twist rates. But I couldn't bring myself to wait another x amount of weeks to get the firearm. Still... given their current track record I'm sure the LGS will botch it up and will have ordered me a 1:8" anyway. ;)
User avatar
Ikkarus
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 11
Queensland

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Ikkarus » 08 Aug 2017, 7:33 pm

Still... might give em a call tomorrow. Cheers lads.
User avatar
Ikkarus
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 11
Queensland

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Gwion » 08 Aug 2017, 7:34 pm

Mate. You're better off waiting another couple of weeks and getting what is more suitable to target shooting.
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Ikkarus » 08 Aug 2017, 7:38 pm

Thanks Gwion, very true. I'll call them tomorrow and see if I can get them to change it. Not expecting too much but fingers crossed even if it's another few weeks wait. Appreciate the advice from all.
User avatar
Ikkarus
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 11
Queensland

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Gwion » 08 Aug 2017, 7:42 pm

No worries, mate. Just be firm and polite and resolute that your research suggests that you want a 1:8 and that is what you want. It really is no skin off their nose, just another phone call to supplier.
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by duncan61 » 08 Aug 2017, 8:17 pm

I see there is a lot of reasonable price target ammo for sale
.22 winchester .22hornet .222 .243 7mm rem mag cbc 12g
User avatar
duncan61
Officer Cadet
Officer Cadet
 
Posts: 1905
Western Australia

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by duncan61 » 08 Aug 2017, 8:24 pm

If you end up with the 1;12 twist it would be good to see how 69gn target bullets go
.22 winchester .22hornet .222 .243 7mm rem mag cbc 12g
User avatar
duncan61
Officer Cadet
Officer Cadet
 
Posts: 1905
Western Australia

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by bladeracer » 08 Aug 2017, 9:05 pm

duncan61 wrote:If you end up with the 1;12 twist it would be good to see how 69gn target bullets go



They won't. 55gn is about as long a bullet as you can run at 12" twist. 69's will have no chance of stability at all.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Ikkarus » 08 Aug 2017, 9:32 pm

Yeah my mate picked up a bunch of the 69gr Aussie Outback which shoot great out of his RPR. Not gonna go anything above 55 if I end up with the 1:12" due to the stabilisation. Sadly, cannot find the 55gr Aussie Outbacks anywhere but have already grabbed some Buffalo River (same manufacturer I believe?), some Winchester and some Tikka rounds for initial testing.
Last edited by Ikkarus on 08 Aug 2017, 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ikkarus
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 11
Queensland

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by duncan61 » 08 Aug 2017, 9:50 pm

,HOME

ABOUT US
PRODUCTS
RESOURCES
SIERRA SCRAPBOOK

ASK SIERRA
.22 Caliber (.224) 69 gr. HPBT MatchKing (100 bullets)
.22 CALIBER (.224) 69 GR. HPBT MATCHKING
Sierra MatchKing BulletsDesigned for Service Rifle competition in the M16A2/AR-15A2, our 22 caliber bullets have set an incredible number of new national records.

While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications. Although MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are commonly used for varmint hunting, their design will not provide the same reliable explosive expansion at equivalent velocities in varmints compared to their lightly jacketed Hornet, Blitz or Varminter counterparts.

The #1380 was introduced in 1984.

This bullet requires a barrel twist rate of 1x10” or faster.

Dia. (inches) Weight (grains) Sectional Density Ballistic Coefficients and Velocity Ranges
0.224 69 .196 .301 @ 2800 fps and above
.305 between 2800 and 2200 fps
.317 @ 2200 fps and below

Price: $27.36 Stock Code: 1380
100 bullets
You May Also Like:
.22 Caliber (.224) 69 gr. Tipped MatchKing (TMK) (100 bullets)
Quantity
1
ADD TO CART
To order by phone, please call 1-888-223-3006

RELATED PRODUCTS
Price: $134.38 Stock Code: 1380C
500 bullets
Quantity
1
ADD TO CART


Price: $164.92 Stock Code: 1380M
Moly 500 bullets
Quantity
1
ADD TO CART
*Sierra Bullets does not sell any loaded ammunition. What you are purchasing are bullets only and will need to be loaded into ammunition in order to be fired from a firearm. Prices, specifications and availability are subject to change without notice. We reserve the right to correct typographic, photographic and/or descriptive errors.



REVIEWS
Overall Rating
5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars
Rate This Product
5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars
Les S of Darwin , Australia January 10, 2017
10 shots 10 kills on big roos , they fragment to cause max tissue damage ,the base holds together still 30gn ,and gets penetration
Was this review helpful? Yes No400 found it helpful | 354 did not
5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars
Blake S of Spanish Fork, Utah December 18, 2016
I started using these in my 22-250 behind some varget powder and .... wow!! They shoot better than I could have asked for. Get ya some , you won't be disappointed.
Was this review helpful? Yes No402 found it helpful | 400 did not
5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars
robert w of myerstown, Pennsylvania August 12, 2016
most consistently accurate bullet I have used in my savage 12fv rifle. 3/8" to 1/2" groups at 100-150 yds.are the norm. have used sierra bullets for over 40 years. others are good but sierra are my choice. take the time to work up your load, may take some effort, but when you get it, all at the range notice!
Was this review helpful? Yes No634 found it helpful | 634 did not
5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars5 Stars
john p of towanda, Pennsylvania December 6, 2015
this is the only bulet i will use in my 223 f class rifle...constantlly small groups to 500 yards..tried bergers,but the sierra 69g.
.22 winchester .22hornet .222 .243 7mm rem mag cbc 12g
User avatar
duncan61
Officer Cadet
Officer Cadet
 
Posts: 1905
Western Australia

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by duncan61 » 08 Aug 2017, 9:54 pm

your right
.22 winchester .22hornet .222 .243 7mm rem mag cbc 12g
User avatar
duncan61
Officer Cadet
Officer Cadet
 
Posts: 1905
Western Australia

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by yoshie » 09 Aug 2017, 7:37 am

Some people can get 62g flat bases to stabilise but their loads are usually over max and even then some rifles dont stabilise them well.
User avatar
yoshie
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 641
Australian Capital Territory

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Member-Deleted » 09 Aug 2017, 9:11 am

Well Ikkarus my son and i have been through what you are about to go through ,firstly couldn't wait for rifle, then it turned up, novelty wore off
so decided to try heavier projectiles then the wish we had got the 8'' kicked in, by the way the rifle was also 223
Mate sounds as though these blokes know what they're talking about in fact i would put money on it, myself i only shoot ferals and hunt i'm not a member of a
shooting club
In my experience with shooting 400 to 500 yrd with 55gr the weather would have to be nigh on perfect infact i wouldn't even try to shoot anything at that distance
with a 223 ( unless targets) i run a 22-250 and with 55gr it to is iffy at long range even with the slightest breeze hence i now shoot 25-06 for the long breezy shot
had to get better weight
Since buying the 223 my son has done some work on it and rebarrelled to 8'' and hasn't looked back his mate borrows it to shoot at his club

Mate i to have learnt nothing from listening to gun shop owners i have had my own bad experience with them but i won't go into that now
You've got some good advice from these blokes i would run with it and get the 8''the shop can change the order easily don't let them talk you out of it
Just my opinion

Cheers
Member-Deleted
 

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by duncan61 » 09 Aug 2017, 10:26 am

Unfortunately gun shop staff do get it wrong.I had a staff member telling me that shot gun target ammo would not hurt parrots but it made no sense so I went with it and the cheap target ammo worked great on rabbits and parrots
.22 winchester .22hornet .222 .243 7mm rem mag cbc 12g
User avatar
duncan61
Officer Cadet
Officer Cadet
 
Posts: 1905
Western Australia

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Ikkarus » 09 Aug 2017, 10:33 am

Just got off the phone to the GS now and they were happy to swap it for a 1in8 twist. 2 more weeks waiting but I think I'll be happier with it in the long run. Thanks again all for your help and advice!
User avatar
Ikkarus
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 11
Queensland

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Gwion » 09 Aug 2017, 11:08 am

Good stuff. Two weeks waiting well spent.
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by in2anity » 09 Aug 2017, 11:43 am

Ikkarus wrote:Just got off the phone to the GS now and they were happy to swap it for a 1in8 twist. 2 more weeks waiting but I think I'll be happier with it in the long run. Thanks again all for your help and advice!


smart move :thumbsup:
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Question on barrel twist rate - 8 vs 12.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 09 Aug 2017, 12:55 pm

Knew a bloke who said that "light bullets" shot well/accurately in his 1:7" 223. It had a long, heavy barrel and I don't know if that would make a difference but good luck with your new toy mate :thumbsup:
Wm.Traynor
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1644
Queensland

Next

Back to top
 
Return to Centerfire rifles