Howa 7.62 x 39

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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by in2anity » 04 Sep 2017, 3:17 pm

sungazer wrote:Just based on my Remington 700 SPS with the 24 inch Varmint barrel. It was about 1 -1.5 moa at best. The chambers are Factory read big and sloppy. The shorter barrel IMHO will limit the accuracy at longer ranges Ok out to about 300m probably.


In terms of accuracy, the only difference should be the shorter barrel will wipe a little bit of velocity off, so yes for F-class style applications it wouldn't be as effective. But < 500m accuracy should be pretty similar, albeit a bit more of a rainbow. Oh and of course it'll be less pleasant to shoot due to increased recoil :wtf: But I hardly ever shoot max loads mainly due to the fact that you simply can't with cast-lead projectiles, and most of the time there's no point.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Gaz52 » 04 Sep 2017, 11:24 pm

I cast 180 gn .314" lead bullets from a Cast bullet engineering mould in my Baikal break action 7.62x39. The flat point gas checked bullet stabilizes even with reduced loads in the little Russian . Check out CBE's web site .
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 35

Post by bladeracer » 05 Sep 2017, 10:49 am

in2anity wrote:Yeah I've been tempted - but I'm just gonna get a short, bull-barrel 308 next and I'll just load it down. A lot more versatile that way. IMO if you roll your own, the 300blk is really for tac-tards; nothing you can't do with a tight twist 308 shooting reduced loads.


The 300BLK does have some advantages over reduced loads in .308, and that's the twist rate which lets you shoot up to 300gn bullets, maybe even heavier than that?
If you can get a .308 with 7"-twist then you can shoot everything the BLK can.
But I'm with you, .308 loaded down is more versatile. If I need to sling a 300gn bullet at 1500fps I'll use something that does that job - 45/70, 450 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOM, or even .44 Magnum.

I'll probably still get a 300BLK just for giggles though :-)
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 35

Post by in2anity » 05 Sep 2017, 11:39 am

bladeracer wrote:The 300BLK does have some advantages over reduced loads in .308, and that's the twist rate which lets you shoot up to 300gn bullets, maybe even heavier than that?

Really? Do you reckon a 1:7 would handle a 300gn+ pill? That'd be sick if it could! Almost light 45/70 territory!
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 35

Post by bladeracer » 05 Sep 2017, 12:01 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:The 300BLK does have some advantages over reduced loads in .308, and that's the twist rate which lets you shoot up to 300gn bullets, maybe even heavier than that?

Really? Do you reckon a 1:7 would handle a 300gn+ pill? That'd be sick if it could! Almost light 45/70 territory!


I'm not that familiar with it but I have seen threads with people trying to find the limits of what they can push out of the BLK. I think it's been pushed well above 300gn but I'm not sure if anybody has found a limit. The main problem is getting enough powder into the case to push the bullet to the end of the barrel :-)
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by bladeracer » 05 Sep 2017, 12:04 pm

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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Hugh » 06 Sep 2017, 6:45 pm

Ok everybody is missing point here,i needed not just lighter recoil but light recoil and the 7.62x 39 on chuck hawks recoil table was about 6lbs a lot less than the 30/30,also needed something that was legal on deer.I believe the 300 blk would also have done the job.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by bladeracer » 06 Sep 2017, 6:59 pm

Hugh wrote:Ok everybody is missing point here,i needed not just lighter recoil but light recoil and the 7.62x 39 on chuck hawks recoil table was about 6lbs a lot less than the 30/30,also needed something that was legal on deer.I believe the 300 blk would also have done the job.


Can you have a shoot with a .308 with a muzzle brake maybe?
For deer you're only likely to be taking one shot so a brake should be tolerable for that.
When you want to shoot smaller stuff load down accordingly.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by in2anity » 06 Sep 2017, 8:18 pm

Hugh wrote:Ok everybody is missing point here,i needed not just lighter recoil but light recoil and the 7.62x 39 on chuck hawks recoil table was about 6lbs a lot less than the 30/30,also needed something that was legal on deer.I believe the 300 blk would also have done the job.


Oops yeah sorry mate. Nah the 7.62x39 is a great little intermediate cartridge; you've done well. I'm starting to see the "Howa" light I think; all things considered it's hard to beat!
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Hugh » 08 Sep 2017, 5:14 am

bladeracer wrote:
Hugh wrote:Ok everybody is missing point here,i needed not just lighter recoil but light recoil and the 7.62x 39 on chuck hawks recoil table was about 6lbs a lot less than the 30/30,also needed something that was legal on deer.I believe the 300 blk would also have done the job.


Can you have a shoot with a .308 with a muzzle brake maybe?
For deer you're only likely to be taking one shot so a brake should be tolerable for that.
When you want to shoot smaller stuff load down accordingly.

It only takes the one shot to find out and if its no good I will have to walk for a month plus more visits to docs,I have been able shot 30 plus rounds at the range with this calibre with no ill effect.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Gamerancher » 08 Sep 2017, 8:33 am

"What we have here is a failure to communicate", I believe that's from a movie. ( Cool Hand Luke for you young'uns )
You blokes need to read the O.P. "I recently purchased a Howa 7.62 x 39"
Suggesting that Hugh buy this or try that is a bit late.
He bought a Howa - tick.
It is chambered in 7.62 x 39 - tick.
Arguing over this is better than that,or what he should have done instead is a bit redundant. :unknown:
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Gwion » 08 Sep 2017, 8:42 am

^^^
Yup.

I take it Hugh will only be targeting smaller deer species inside 100yd?

I'm not familiar with the 39 but from the paper figures it would be pretty light on for larger deer. According to ballisticstudies.com, it can be a slow and unreliable killing cartridge if not kept within strict limitations.

EDITED because website referred to was incorrect. Correct address now.
Last edited by Gwion on 09 Sep 2017, 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Oldbloke » 08 Sep 2017, 10:11 am

Gwion wrote:^^^
Yup.

I take it Hugh will only be targeting smaller deer species inside 100yd?

I'm not familiar with the 39 but from the paper figures it would be pretty light on for larger deer. According to ballisticsresearch.com, it can be a slow and unreliable killing cartridge if not kept within strict limitations.


Agree, fallow, reds, sambar getting a bit dodgy, perhaps up to 70 meters in ideal situations.
But then most sambar are shot at fairly close range.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Hugh » 08 Sep 2017, 5:15 pm

Wouldn't hesitate to hunt sambar with it,but then again I have never been one for shooting them up the arse.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Gaz52 » 08 Sep 2017, 11:08 pm

Op, do you want to shoot jacketed or cast lead? There is not a lot of choices in jacketed hunting projectiles in .311"and what is available needs to be loaded to an appropriate velocity to achieve expansion. Alternatively , a flat pointed cast lead bullet will effectively expand over a much wider range of velocities , allowing the use of milder loads that are still effective on soft skinned game inside 100 meters. A 150/160 gn gas checked ,flat nosed,lead bullet trundling along at 1700/1800 fps is pleasent to shoot and will surely punch a good sized hole thru a deer.
"
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Gwion » 09 Sep 2017, 7:16 am

Hugh wrote:Wouldn't hesitate to hunt sambar with it,but then again I have never been one for shooting them up the arse.


FYI
Taken from and further info: http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowled ... 9+M43.html

"Performance

As a hunting cartridge, the M43 round is adequate for close range hunting of lighter medium game but it’s performance is generally poor to fair. Using either military FMJ or commercial sporting ammunition, kills with a chest shot are often delayed while animals shot beyond 200 yards may show no sign of being hit, in extreme cases going so far as to continue grazing (in a confused state) after moving to safer cover. "

Based on this information I would be very hesitant to attempt to take a sambar with this cartridge unless I had a very clear opportunity to target a brain shot within 100yd.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Sep 2017, 8:30 am

Looking at the data using a 150g bullet it is about 100fps behind the 30-30 but you can use a spire rather than round nose so that helps. The 30-30 was the legal minimum for sambar until recently. So that's a guide I guess.

I've shot plenty of goats and pigs with the 30-30 and feel confident out to 100 yards would be fine for fallow and probably reds. Sambar I'm not so sure about they are a lot bigger. I'd
say close shots only. I traded in mine for a 30-06 for that reason.

The OP hasn't mentioned what deer species he wants to hunt?

Edit, Just noticed looks like OP. Hugh intends to use it on Sambar.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Gwion » 09 Sep 2017, 8:48 am

If you read further in the link I provided you see that his concerns have a lot to do with available bullets and their ability to induce sufficient wounding for fast killing. Considering the author's extensive experience and the fact that a lot of his terminal ballistics research is carried out on mountain goats in NZ, I would suggest that the cartridge is marginal at best on larger, tougher medium game such as sambar when used with a vital organ target area. I'd be aiming for a neck or brain shot and only if I was absolutely certain of pin point accuracy so as to destroy the central nervous system and inside 100yds.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by RoginaJack » 09 Sep 2017, 10:28 am

Could you lease explain what the fascination is with this cartridge - 7.62x39mm? Why not just use a 30-30 Win., ammo more readily available etc etc or 300blk or 308Win or 7-08..?? Sorry, but I just don't get it! :unknown: :D
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Sep 2017, 12:03 pm

RoginaJack wrote:Could you lease explain what the fascination is with this cartridge - 7.62x39mm? Why not just use a 30-30 Win., ammo more readily available etc etc or 300blk or 308Win or 7-08..?? Sorry, but I just don't get it! :unknown: :D


I agree but you need to read the first post to get an explanation.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Gwion » 09 Sep 2017, 12:13 pm

OP has medical reasons why he needs low recoil rifle for hunting.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by in2anity » 09 Sep 2017, 12:29 pm

RoginaJack wrote:Could you lease explain what the fascination is with this cartridge - 7.62x39mm? Why not just use a 30-30 Win., ammo more readily available etc etc or 300blk or 308Win or 7-08..?? Sorry, but I just don't get it! :unknown: :D


Indeed the 7.62x39 and 300blk are comparable intermediate cartridges, but from a recoil perspective, how can you compare a 308W/7-08 against these two? And the 30-30 basically only comes in levers, meaning accuracy isn't great for 200m+ shots. Of course all bets are off if you roll-your-own, but not everyone does (for example OP). Nope the 7.62x39 and 300blk are a fairly distinct category IMO.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Hugh » 09 Sep 2017, 2:03 pm

I don't need to shoot every deer I see,i hunt mainly for the meat,so I'm sure about my shots before I fire,not that I don't make mistakes,it happens,but I'm confident enough in round to kill whatever I'm aiming at.Could go back to old argument of more Elk have been taken by 30/30 then any other round or same thing with 303 and elephants.Im not saying its my first choice as I had the 30.06 and 444 marlin[great round by the way for close work].
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by wildcard6 » 12 Sep 2017, 3:13 pm

Not long ago, I assisted a relative in sorting out their Howa 7.62x39 Mini Action rifle and I too found it an enjoyable rifle to shoot in this calibre. With a quantity of new Sellier & Bellot brass and Hornady 123 grain plastic tipped bullets, I tested both AR2206H and later AR2207 powders to find the best load. AR2206H gave very good accuracy, but when I chronoed it, velocities were somewhat anaemic. Once I went to AR2207 [as everyone told me to], velocities improved by over 200 fps and still accurate, so that's what I recommended to the owner. They have been using the rifle with this load and reporting very good results out to 150m on things like goats and 'roos. One thing that was done was to lighten the trigger by shortening the spring. Before the trigger was good-ish, now it's fantastic! Almost as good as my Sako. Western Firearms was able to supply both brass and projectiles, so if you intend shooting the rifle a lot, reloading is definitely the way to go. Good shooting mate.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by RoginaJack » 13 Sep 2017, 9:46 am

"More Elk have been taken with the 30/30 then etc..." BUT how many have been wounded by the 30/30? Stupid argument, stupid comparison. 8-)

The 7.62X39mm with 130gr projectiles (minimum weight for deer in Vic.), I don't see how it's suitable for hunting Red or Sambar. The 270Win. (minimum calibre with 130gr projectiles) craps all over it.

All I can see with this calibre hunting deer is a lot of heartache and disappointment.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Hugh » 16 Sep 2017, 6:22 am

RoginaJack wrote:"More Elk have been taken with the 30/30 then etc..." BUT how many have been wounded by the 30/30? Stupid argument, stupid comparison. 8-)

The 7.62X39mm with 130gr projectiles (minimum weight for deer in Vic.), I don't see how it's suitable for hunting Red or Sambar. The 270Win. (minimum calibre with 130gr projectiles) craps all over it.

All I can see with this calibre hunting deer is a lot of heartache and disappointment.
My 2 cents worth.

There are lots of deer wounded by 308,3006 and 458 probably more than 30/30 as they are more popular a round in au.
The 7.62 x39 is available in 154 grain bullets factory loaded.Have you read what this thread is about?
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Oldbloke » 17 Sep 2017, 10:17 pm

Sooo, today I looked at Errol Masons Secrets of Sambar. He states the 3006 with well placed shots is capable of reliable 1 shot kills on Sambar out to 300 yards. No further. So I did some Numbers on my 30-06 and the 7.62 x 39. Here it is.

My 3006 Estimated load with 180 gr Interlok .425 BC muzzle velocity 2550 fps 22" barrel. Manual says about 2600 fps but have deducted 50 fps because all data is from the ADI manual and they use 24" barrels. So this is an estimate. People often forget that the ADI and other powder companies usually use 24 or 26" barrels and some allowance needs to be made for this if you are only estimating.

I ran all these through the Federal ballistic calculator.

30-06
Muzzle 2550 fps 2599 ft-lb
100 yards 2348 fps 2203 ft-lb
200 Yards 2156 fps 1857 ft-lb
300 yards 1972 fps 1554 ft-lb

So 1554 ft-lb is considered by E Mason to be the minimum reliable energy for 1 shot kills on Sambar.

7.62x39 Max load with 24" barrel 150 gr .339 BC Interlok 2192 fps, deduct for 22" barrel make in say 2150 fps.
7.62x39
Muzzle 2150 fps 1539 ft-lb energy
50 yards 2034 fps 1377 ft-lb energy
100 yards 1921 fps 1228 ft-lb energy

Numbers speak for them selves- in theory at least reliable to the end of the muzzle. mmmm perhaps 50 yards max. So I would not use it on Sambar. Perhaps Reds to 50 yards.

Just hope I got the numbers right.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by bladeracer » 18 Sep 2017, 1:03 am

Oldbloke wrote:Sooo, today I looked at Errol Masons Secrets of Sambar. He states the 3006 with well placed shots is capable of reliable 1 shot kills on Sambar out to 300 yards. No further. So I did some Numbers on my 30-06 and the 7.62 x 39. Here it is.

My 3006 Estimated load with 180 gr Interlok .425 BC muzzle velocity 2550 fps 22" barrel. Manual says about 2600 fps but have deducted 50 fps because all data is from the ADI manual and they use 24" barrels. So this is an estimate. People often forget that the ADI and other powder companies usually use 24 or 26" barrels and some allowance needs to be made for this if you are only estimating.

I ran all these through the Federal ballistic calculator.

30-06
Muzzle 2550 fps 2599 ft-lb
100 yards 2348 fps 2203 ft-lb
200 Yards 2156 fps 1857 ft-lb
300 yards 1972 fps 1554 ft-lb

So 1554 ft-lb is considered by E Mason to be the minimum reliable energy for 1 shot kills on Sambar.

7.62x39 Max load with 24" barrel 150 gr .339 BC Interlok 2192 fps, deduct for 22" barrel make in say 2150 fps.
7.62x39
Muzzle 2150 fps 1539 ft-lb energy
50 yards 2034 fps 1377 ft-lb energy
100 yards 1921 fps 1228 ft-lb energy

Numbers speak for them selves- in theory at least reliable to the end of the muzzle. mmmm perhaps 50 yards max. So I would not use it on Sambar. Perhaps Reds to 50 yards.

Just hope I got the numbers right.


Numbers are still somewhat random when it comes to killing an animal, even a well-placed shot may not always kill instantly, and sometimes a poorly-placed shot will. If I had to kill a Sambar and 7.62x39mm is all I had then I'd use it, at very close range. But if I could borrow a .308 with a brake I'd be a hell of a lot happier using that, or something even bigger.

I had a post come through my FB feed last week from a guy that was praising the bullet he used to take a Sambar...except it took two shots to kill it. I can't recall what cartridge it was, but I do remember it was legal.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Oldbloke » 18 Sep 2017, 7:56 am

Projectile selection is fairly important too. And there area lot of variables, such as if it hits the shoulder or a rib.
I just spent five minutes having a look & I don't know if Mason really knows what he's talking about but he only talks about using 308, 270, 30-06 or bigger. He considers those more or less minimum requirement. Mentions a few others too, like 7-08. I didn't notice 30-30.

I was just trying to do some sort of qualitative measurement.

The other thing is Hugh doesn't have many choices given his health. But I agree a heavyish 308 or 7-08 with muzzle break would have been a much better choice. The 150 gr bullet limits a bit too I think.
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Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by RoginaJack » 18 Sep 2017, 9:38 am

Bladeracer - "Numbers are still somewhat random when it comes to killing an animal, even a well-placed shot may not always kill instantly, and sometimes a poorly-placed shot will."

What an absolute load of rubbish!
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