Howa 7.62 x 39

Bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action, self loading rifles and other miscellaneous longarms.

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by RoginaJack » 09 Sep 2017, 10:28 am

Could you lease explain what the fascination is with this cartridge - 7.62x39mm? Why not just use a 30-30 Win., ammo more readily available etc etc or 300blk or 308Win or 7-08..?? Sorry, but I just don't get it! :unknown: :D
Boom, Boom! Tikka, Tikka, Boom! Shoot first, video later.
User avatar
RoginaJack
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1410
Queensland

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Sep 2017, 12:03 pm

RoginaJack wrote:Could you lease explain what the fascination is with this cartridge - 7.62x39mm? Why not just use a 30-30 Win., ammo more readily available etc etc or 300blk or 308Win or 7-08..?? Sorry, but I just don't get it! :unknown: :D


I agree but you need to read the first post to get an explanation.
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Gwion » 09 Sep 2017, 12:13 pm

OP has medical reasons why he needs low recoil rifle for hunting.
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by in2anity » 09 Sep 2017, 12:29 pm

RoginaJack wrote:Could you lease explain what the fascination is with this cartridge - 7.62x39mm? Why not just use a 30-30 Win., ammo more readily available etc etc or 300blk or 308Win or 7-08..?? Sorry, but I just don't get it! :unknown: :D


Indeed the 7.62x39 and 300blk are comparable intermediate cartridges, but from a recoil perspective, how can you compare a 308W/7-08 against these two? And the 30-30 basically only comes in levers, meaning accuracy isn't great for 200m+ shots. Of course all bets are off if you roll-your-own, but not everyone does (for example OP). Nope the 7.62x39 and 300blk are a fairly distinct category IMO.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Hugh » 09 Sep 2017, 2:03 pm

I don't need to shoot every deer I see,i hunt mainly for the meat,so I'm sure about my shots before I fire,not that I don't make mistakes,it happens,but I'm confident enough in round to kill whatever I'm aiming at.Could go back to old argument of more Elk have been taken by 30/30 then any other round or same thing with 303 and elephants.Im not saying its my first choice as I had the 30.06 and 444 marlin[great round by the way for close work].
Last edited by Hugh on 12 Sep 2017, 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hugh
Private
Private
 
Posts: 95
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by wildcard6 » 12 Sep 2017, 3:13 pm

Not long ago, I assisted a relative in sorting out their Howa 7.62x39 Mini Action rifle and I too found it an enjoyable rifle to shoot in this calibre. With a quantity of new Sellier & Bellot brass and Hornady 123 grain plastic tipped bullets, I tested both AR2206H and later AR2207 powders to find the best load. AR2206H gave very good accuracy, but when I chronoed it, velocities were somewhat anaemic. Once I went to AR2207 [as everyone told me to], velocities improved by over 200 fps and still accurate, so that's what I recommended to the owner. They have been using the rifle with this load and reporting very good results out to 150m on things like goats and 'roos. One thing that was done was to lighten the trigger by shortening the spring. Before the trigger was good-ish, now it's fantastic! Almost as good as my Sako. Western Firearms was able to supply both brass and projectiles, so if you intend shooting the rifle a lot, reloading is definitely the way to go. Good shooting mate.
wildcard6
Private
Private
 
Posts: 89
South Australia

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by RoginaJack » 13 Sep 2017, 9:46 am

"More Elk have been taken with the 30/30 then etc..." BUT how many have been wounded by the 30/30? Stupid argument, stupid comparison. 8-)

The 7.62X39mm with 130gr projectiles (minimum weight for deer in Vic.), I don't see how it's suitable for hunting Red or Sambar. The 270Win. (minimum calibre with 130gr projectiles) craps all over it.

All I can see with this calibre hunting deer is a lot of heartache and disappointment.
My 2 cents worth.
Boom, Boom! Tikka, Tikka, Boom! Shoot first, video later.
User avatar
RoginaJack
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1410
Queensland

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Hugh » 16 Sep 2017, 6:22 am

RoginaJack wrote:"More Elk have been taken with the 30/30 then etc..." BUT how many have been wounded by the 30/30? Stupid argument, stupid comparison. 8-)

The 7.62X39mm with 130gr projectiles (minimum weight for deer in Vic.), I don't see how it's suitable for hunting Red or Sambar. The 270Win. (minimum calibre with 130gr projectiles) craps all over it.

All I can see with this calibre hunting deer is a lot of heartache and disappointment.
My 2 cents worth.

There are lots of deer wounded by 308,3006 and 458 probably more than 30/30 as they are more popular a round in au.
The 7.62 x39 is available in 154 grain bullets factory loaded.Have you read what this thread is about?
Hugh
Private
Private
 
Posts: 95
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Oldbloke » 17 Sep 2017, 10:17 pm

Sooo, today I looked at Errol Masons Secrets of Sambar. He states the 3006 with well placed shots is capable of reliable 1 shot kills on Sambar out to 300 yards. No further. So I did some Numbers on my 30-06 and the 7.62 x 39. Here it is.

My 3006 Estimated load with 180 gr Interlok .425 BC muzzle velocity 2550 fps 22" barrel. Manual says about 2600 fps but have deducted 50 fps because all data is from the ADI manual and they use 24" barrels. So this is an estimate. People often forget that the ADI and other powder companies usually use 24 or 26" barrels and some allowance needs to be made for this if you are only estimating.

I ran all these through the Federal ballistic calculator.

30-06
Muzzle 2550 fps 2599 ft-lb
100 yards 2348 fps 2203 ft-lb
200 Yards 2156 fps 1857 ft-lb
300 yards 1972 fps 1554 ft-lb

So 1554 ft-lb is considered by E Mason to be the minimum reliable energy for 1 shot kills on Sambar.

7.62x39 Max load with 24" barrel 150 gr .339 BC Interlok 2192 fps, deduct for 22" barrel make in say 2150 fps.
7.62x39
Muzzle 2150 fps 1539 ft-lb energy
50 yards 2034 fps 1377 ft-lb energy
100 yards 1921 fps 1228 ft-lb energy

Numbers speak for them selves- in theory at least reliable to the end of the muzzle. mmmm perhaps 50 yards max. So I would not use it on Sambar. Perhaps Reds to 50 yards.

Just hope I got the numbers right.
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by bladeracer » 18 Sep 2017, 1:03 am

Oldbloke wrote:Sooo, today I looked at Errol Masons Secrets of Sambar. He states the 3006 with well placed shots is capable of reliable 1 shot kills on Sambar out to 300 yards. No further. So I did some Numbers on my 30-06 and the 7.62 x 39. Here it is.

My 3006 Estimated load with 180 gr Interlok .425 BC muzzle velocity 2550 fps 22" barrel. Manual says about 2600 fps but have deducted 50 fps because all data is from the ADI manual and they use 24" barrels. So this is an estimate. People often forget that the ADI and other powder companies usually use 24 or 26" barrels and some allowance needs to be made for this if you are only estimating.

I ran all these through the Federal ballistic calculator.

30-06
Muzzle 2550 fps 2599 ft-lb
100 yards 2348 fps 2203 ft-lb
200 Yards 2156 fps 1857 ft-lb
300 yards 1972 fps 1554 ft-lb

So 1554 ft-lb is considered by E Mason to be the minimum reliable energy for 1 shot kills on Sambar.

7.62x39 Max load with 24" barrel 150 gr .339 BC Interlok 2192 fps, deduct for 22" barrel make in say 2150 fps.
7.62x39
Muzzle 2150 fps 1539 ft-lb energy
50 yards 2034 fps 1377 ft-lb energy
100 yards 1921 fps 1228 ft-lb energy

Numbers speak for them selves- in theory at least reliable to the end of the muzzle. mmmm perhaps 50 yards max. So I would not use it on Sambar. Perhaps Reds to 50 yards.

Just hope I got the numbers right.


Numbers are still somewhat random when it comes to killing an animal, even a well-placed shot may not always kill instantly, and sometimes a poorly-placed shot will. If I had to kill a Sambar and 7.62x39mm is all I had then I'd use it, at very close range. But if I could borrow a .308 with a brake I'd be a hell of a lot happier using that, or something even bigger.

I had a post come through my FB feed last week from a guy that was praising the bullet he used to take a Sambar...except it took two shots to kill it. I can't recall what cartridge it was, but I do remember it was legal.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Oldbloke » 18 Sep 2017, 7:56 am

Projectile selection is fairly important too. And there area lot of variables, such as if it hits the shoulder or a rib.
I just spent five minutes having a look & I don't know if Mason really knows what he's talking about but he only talks about using 308, 270, 30-06 or bigger. He considers those more or less minimum requirement. Mentions a few others too, like 7-08. I didn't notice 30-30.

I was just trying to do some sort of qualitative measurement.

The other thing is Hugh doesn't have many choices given his health. But I agree a heavyish 308 or 7-08 with muzzle break would have been a much better choice. The 150 gr bullet limits a bit too I think.
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by RoginaJack » 18 Sep 2017, 9:38 am

Bladeracer - "Numbers are still somewhat random when it comes to killing an animal, even a well-placed shot may not always kill instantly, and sometimes a poorly-placed shot will."

What an absolute load of rubbish!
Boom, Boom! Tikka, Tikka, Boom! Shoot first, video later.
User avatar
RoginaJack
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1410
Queensland

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by bladeracer » 18 Sep 2017, 9:47 am

RoginaJack wrote:Bladeracer - "Numbers are still somewhat random when it comes to killing an animal, even a well-placed shot may not always kill instantly, and sometimes a poorly-placed shot will."

What an absolute load of rubbish!


You expressed your opinion, but do you have anything to support it?
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by RoginaJack » 18 Sep 2017, 11:01 am

Bladeracer, no support needed really but if you insist, just troll YouTube there's enough evidence there of shooters getting chewed up by all types of animals hit by poorly placed shots. Also, many books by well known hunters and guides describe nasty instances of poorly placed shots not stopping animals and being tracked for x number of days.
Cheers.
Boom, Boom! Tikka, Tikka, Boom! Shoot first, video later.
User avatar
RoginaJack
Warrant Officer C1
Warrant Officer C1
 
Posts: 1410
Queensland

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by bladeracer » 18 Sep 2017, 11:24 am

RoginaJack wrote:Bladeracer, no support needed really but if you insist, just troll YouTube there's enough evidence there of shooters getting chewed up by all types of animals hit by poorly placed shots. Also, many books by well known hunters and guides describe nasty instances of poorly placed shots not stopping animals and being tracked for x number of days.
Cheers.


At no point was I suggesting that placing your shots poorly is acceptable. But bullets do sometimes do random things when they enter animals, from deflecting off bones and teeth, or heavy mud to exploding near the surface or blowing straight through. Even bullets into the brain do not always put an animal down.

My mother's Chihuahua was shot with a .22. The well-placed bullet entered the centre of the chest, passed the full length of the body and exited right beside the root of the tail. With no surgery he survived and lived a very long life. My lab-cross pup that was with him took a badly-placed bullet into the liver and bled out internally in an hour with almost no external blood loss. We raced them to the vet immediately.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Gwion » 18 Sep 2017, 11:35 am

Now how the *#%$ did that s**t happen!?! :crazy:
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Gwion » 18 Sep 2017, 11:37 am

My argument would be that if the animal wasn't killed then the shot wasn't place well, was it!??! :unknown:
(or the cartridge and bullet selection were inadequate, which in a way leads to poor shot placement as it leaves you with no "good" spot to place the shot) :unknown:
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by bladeracer » 18 Sep 2017, 11:44 am

Gwion wrote:My argument would be that if the animal wasn't killed then the shot wasn't place well, was it!??! :unknown:
(or the cartridge and bullet selection were inadequate, which in a way leads to poor shot placement as it leaves you with no "good" spot to place the shot) :unknown:


You could make that argument, but it doesn't negate the randomness of shooting animals. Shooting Sambar with 7.62x39mm increases the risk of those random results, that would be minimised by using something with a lot more terminal energy.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by bladeracer » 18 Sep 2017, 11:49 am

Gwion wrote:Now how the *#%$ did that s**t happen!?! :crazy:


That's exactly my point :-)
You only need look at warfare to see the random results inherent in ballistics. An 8x57mm bullet through the brain with full recovery, .22LR in the arm that opens an artery and you die. Or crime when a point-blank shotgun blast to the face doesn't kill the estranged wife.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Gwion » 18 Sep 2017, 12:16 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Gwion wrote:Now how the *#%$ did that s**t happen!?! :crazy:


That's exactly my point :-)
You only need look at warfare to see the random results inherent in ballistics. An 8x57mm bullet through the brain with full recovery, .22LR in the arm that opens an artery and you die. Or crime when a point-blank shotgun blast to the face doesn't kill the estranged wife.


No, you miss my point.

How the hell do two pets get shot with a 22lr at the same time???
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Oldbloke » 18 Sep 2017, 12:19 pm

I think what blade racer is saying it there are a lot of variables. Some hard to predict.
Bullet construction and hardness
Velocity upon impact
Angle hit
Did it hit heavy bone or no bone
Location, chest, brain etc
Bullet weight
Was the animal relaxed or nervous, running.

My experience says better a bit more oomf than less. I hardly shoot off hand any more.
I would never shoot at a running sambar again. Already lost two, never to be found.

Heard too many first hand accounts of sambar hit well and run far further than expected. The other problem is easy shots on sambar are hard to come by.
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Gwion » 18 Sep 2017, 12:36 pm

Yeah. I get all that but my argument is that all these factor come into the shot selection and placement, some of them well before you even get out into the field. It is still part of shot selection & placement.

No one is debating against the fact a 50cal placed anywhere in the main body (ie: not the extrmities) of, lets say a dog for instance, will likely result in a rapid death where as a raking shot on a quartering animal with a 22lr is going to be marginal at the very best. My argument contends that a raking shot , even accurately placed at the vital area) with an inadequate cartridge and a marginal bullet is not, in fact, a well placed shot because your basic selection criteria prior to the hunt has failed to address requirements and likely possibilities.
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Oldbloke » 18 Sep 2017, 4:33 pm

"My argument contends that a raking shot , even accurately placed at the vital area) with an inadequate cartridge and a marginal bullet is not, in fact, a well placed shot because your basic selection criteria prior to the hunt has failed to address requirements and likely possibilities."

I'd agree with that. Or you should have been more selective regarding when you pull the trigger.

Are we a bit far off topic here? Should we start a new thread? Eg. cartridge and bullet selection? :lol:
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Hugh » 18 Sep 2017, 5:28 pm

Oldbloke wrote:I think what blade racer is saying it there are a lot of variables. Some hard to predict.
Bullet construction and hardness
Velocity upon impact
Angle hit
Did it hit heavy bone or no bone
Location, chest, brain etc
Bullet weight
Was the animal relaxed or nervous, running.

My experience says better a bit more oomf than less. I hardly shoot off hand any more.
I would never shoot at a running sambar again. Already lost two, never to be found.

Heard too many first hand accounts of sambar hit well and run far further than expected. The other problem is easy shots on sambar are hard to come by.

I'm not arguing that this round is ideal but its what I have to work with,reasonably large calibre with low recoil,im pretty sure it has enough knock down power as sighting the new scope in seeing how it shot out at 200 yards it punched a clean hole through the reo bar target holder,not that is proof.Most of my hunting is in se vic and 100 yards is a long shot.Military gives this round out of AK 47 lethal to 450 metres.
Hugh
Private
Private
 
Posts: 95
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Gwion » 18 Sep 2017, 5:40 pm

Not having a go, Hugh. Just debating pros and cons.

I'm sure as long as you are sure of your shot and take out the central nervous system you will be fine within a reasonable range. Just wouldn't be the first choice of cartridge if no medical requirements were involved.
User avatar
Gwion
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3978
-

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Oldbloke » 18 Sep 2017, 5:41 pm

"Military gives this round out of AK 47 lethal to 450 metres."

People aren't sambar. Good luck, I do understand your situation. Just be very selective when pulling the trigger.

Might bump into you in a few weeks. Would be good. :thumbsup:
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by bladeracer » 18 Sep 2017, 5:46 pm

Gwion wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Gwion wrote:Now how the *#%$ did that s**t happen!?! :crazy:


That's exactly my point :-)
You only need look at warfare to see the random results inherent in ballistics. An 8x57mm bullet through the brain with full recovery, .22LR in the arm that opens an artery and you die. Or crime when a point-blank shotgun blast to the face doesn't kill the estranged wife.


No, you miss my point.

How the hell do two pets get shot with a 22lr at the same time???


We were living on a farm property with a farmer/butcher who was mad, I mean literally crazy. One morning we woke up to discover that he'd shot them, supposedly for barking. But it was his dog that was always bloody barking, it used to drive us nuts. We never got any sensible reason, but it was the last straw so we moved elsewhere. He was the sort of bloke that if you saw on the news some crazy bastard had murdered his family, you wouldn't be at all surprised to learn it was him.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Hugh » 18 Sep 2017, 8:03 pm

Gwion wrote:Not having a go, Hugh. Just debating pros and cons.

I'm sure as long as you are sure of your shot and take out the central nervous system you will be fine within a reasonable range. Just wouldn't be the first choice of cartridge if no medical requirements were involved.

As I have posted its not my first choice but it is what it is.
Hugh
Private
Private
 
Posts: 95
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Hugh » 07 Oct 2017, 2:44 pm

Ok after a bit of research have found that the 123 gr 7.62 x39 out performs the 30/30 wcf 170 gr bullet in only 50 yards due to better shape of bullets,bit of a bonus still waiting on my 154 gr ammo to come in.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016 ... g-caliber/
Hugh
Private
Private
 
Posts: 95
Victoria

Re: Howa 7.62 x 39

Post by Oldbloke » 08 Oct 2017, 3:56 pm

1. No way would I use a 30-30 on moose.
2. 130 gr is the minimum weight for Reds & Sambar.

See my previous posts. Good luck. Get very close and shoot straight.
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

PreviousNext

Back to top
 
Return to Centerfire rifles