bladeracer wrote:I don't understand your point about Power Factor - 9mm out of a pistol barrel makes Minor already.
I think 9mm is too anaemic for a rifle, .357 Magnum is about as weak as I'd be interested in. I would think you'd have a larger potential market if you build something that can also be used for hunting rather than just competition.
The modular concept is good, but I doubt I'd have any interest in a pump-action pistol-caliber rifle. Pumps work great in high-recoil cartridges but do nothing for me in light cartridges. Do you think it can be done cost-effectively to complete with pistol-caliber lever rifles?
I see sense in sticking with a common handgun magazine, but that also greatly restricts your cartridge choices.
Mr.Seacucumber wrote:I would buy lots of them. I've been considering funding a project to convert a 7615 to take glock mags but it's a little down the list of things to do.
brett1868 wrote:I love the idea so consider me onboard I can't see how power factor comes into play for a rifle though. Top of my list would be a 460 Magnum or S&W 500 as they pack plenty of punch and perfect for a scrub gun.
Download wrote:bladeracer wrote:I don't understand your point about Power Factor - 9mm out of a pistol barrel makes Minor already.Download wrote:There's a difference between minor in pistol and minor in rifle power factors.
There is? I had no idea power factors even enter the equation with rifles. A bit of a Google tells me pistol PF is 125 for minor and 160 for major, and rifle is 150 and 320. Shotguns are 480 for major PF.I think 9mm is too anaemic for a rifle, .357 Magnum is about as weak as I'd be interested in. I would think you'd have a larger potential market if you build something that can also be used for hunting rather than just competition.Download wrote:I did suggest other cartridges, most of which are in the .357Mag and greater range, and .460 Rowland even makes .44Mag energies.
But they won't be able to use Glock mags will they?The modular concept is good, but I doubt I'd have any interest in a pump-action pistol-caliber rifle. Pumps work great in high-recoil cartridges but do nothing for me in light cartridges. Do you think it can be done cost-effectively to complete with pistol-caliber lever rifles?Download wrote:In mechanical complexity and machining time I'm imagining it will be similar to an AR15. In the US many small shops manage to produce small runs of AR15s and compete with the big names, producing guns well under US$1k. The man price competitor though will be the Remington 7615.
I don't see that being much of a competition unless you chamber this in more powerful hunting cartridges.Download wrote:The gun will also have the advantage over lever guns in being faster firing and quicker to reload.
Not of interest to me. If you are building it purely for competition you'll need to start with how many competition handgun shooters do we have in Oz, and how many of those would have any interest in paying a couple grand for a larger (but no more powerful) pistol. In the field I don't need faster than a bolt or quicker to reload.I see sense in sticking with a common handgun magazine, but that also greatly restricts your cartridge choices.Download wrote:Glock makes handguns in pretty much every mainstream rimless pistol calibre. What more would you want?
Something other than rimless perhaps? Rimless cases need to headspace on the case mouth. In my opinion, headspacing on the rim or the shoulder is a better idea. Handgun cartridges need to be compact because they're used in handguns. Retaining that restriction when building a rifle doesn't make sense to me.Mr.Seacucumber wrote:I would buy lots of them. I've been considering funding a project to convert a 7615 to take glock mags but it's a little down the list of things to do.Download wrote:That was my initial thought but I wasn't sure people would want to spend $1600+ on a rifle and then a lot more for a conversion kit. The 7615 design isn't very good anyway.
bladeracer wrote:You're set! As long as you can break even on the "lots of them" that MrSC buys I'd say tool up
Why not just put a 9mm into one of the chassis systems already around?
What is it that you feel a pistol-caliber rifle offers over a pistol? I can see that a butt stock greatly improves accuracy for shooting past 100m, but is there any significant benefit to a longer barrel in a pistol cartridge? I shot with guys that were making major in 9mm, and that's higher than minor PF in rifle class. It's hard on the gun but it is usually achievable, even from the standard-length pistol barrel. Cartridges bigger than 9mm probably already make minor rifle class from pistol barrels anyway.
Download wrote:bladeracer wrote:Why not just put a 9mm into one of the chassis systems already around?Download wrote:Because converting a pistol into a rifle/carbine is usually illegal in most states.
I'm not talking about turning a pistol into a rifle, which is not the purpose of the pistol chassis anyway. Put a stock on a pistol and convert the tilting-barrel semi-auto pistol into a fixed-barrel pump-action. I don't see any need for a rifle-length barrel (other than to make it compliant as a rifle, which you don't need for a proof-of-concept). Put a 10-12" barrel on it to support the pump while keeping it under rifle length. Put a few thousand rounds through it and if you think you have something others might want then start designing your own version from scratch.bladeracer wrote:What is it that you feel a pistol-caliber rifle offers over a pistol? I can see that a butt stock greatly improves accuracy for shooting past 100m, but is there any significant benefit to a longer barrel in a pistol cartridge? I shot with guys that were making major in 9mm, and that's higher than minor PF in rifle class. It's hard on the gun but it is usually achievable, even from the standard-length pistol barrel. Cartridges bigger than 9mm probably already make minor rifle class from pistol barrels anyway.Download wrote:Because pistols are not rifles. The whole point here is to design a rifle that is cheap to feed, meets IPSC rifle minor PF and can hopefully be used on a pistol range.
Download wrote:Because pistols are not rifles. The whole point here is to design a rifle that is cheap to feed, meets IPSC rifle minor PF and can hopefully be used on a pistol range.
bladeracer wrote:But wouldn't a lever-action .357 or .44 Magnum rifle meet those needs already, and at half the cost? Any of the pistol cartridges are cheap to feed cast lead bullets, as are rifle cartridges. I shoot 8x57mm cast lead for 15-25c a shot, depending on whether I buy fresh lead or dig it out of the dam wall.
I'm afraid I just don't see any value in such a contraption at all. Rifles and pistols suit two different purposes. Building a rifle but crippling it to perform like a pistol just seems a mistake to me. About the only potentially useful feature I can see is the box magazines, but that doesn't come close to outweighing the fact that you're still stuck with a pistol cartridge in my opinion. Maybe design a conversion for running pistol mags on the pistol-caliber lever guns? That could be an interesting concept that opens up the range of bullets that can be used.
bladeracer wrote:Can we currently use any rifles on IPSC pistol ranges?
Download wrote:I haven't named a price yet so its a bit steep to be making claims about costs. Shooting cast bullets may be acceptable for major PF but you won't see people doing the same with .223 Remington.
bladeracer wrote:I'm afraid I just don't see any value in such a contraption at all. Rifles and pistols suit two different purposes. Building a rifle but crippling it to perform like a pistol just seems a mistake to me. About the only potentially useful feature I can see is the box magazines, but that doesn't come close to outweighing the fact that you're still stuck with a pistol cartridge in my opinion. Maybe design a conversion for running pistol mags on the pistol-caliber lever guns? That could be an interesting concept that opens up the range of bullets that can be used.
Download wrote:So you all those people out there who hunt with .357 Magnums and the like are wasting their time? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying to me.
bladeracer wrote:Can we currently use any rifles on IPSC pistol ranges?
Download wrote:Many ranges are only approved by the police for specific calibres.
wrenchman wrote:taurus did make one for a while called the thunder bolt they were in revolver rounds
BRNO_Bigot wrote:wrenchman wrote:taurus did make one for a while called the thunder bolt they were in revolver rounds
I had one for Western Action, but it was too different, and I was subjected to silly requirements by people who didn't understand the how it actually worked, so idiots were always running up while I was loading it screaming "unsafe, unsafe" because the action had to be open to load, unlike a lever rifle.
It was a copy of the Colt Lightning.
Mr.Seacucumber wrote:What? Haha Western Action peeps are a funny bunch.
bentaz wrote:I like the IMI Timberwolf, but not so much the sound of your more modern version. Not saying its a bad idea just not my style.
bladeracer wrote:Mr.Seacucumber wrote:What? Haha Western Action peeps are a funny bunch.
You've only got to see how they dress to know that
Tripod wrote:I think small calibre pumpy's are great, I have 25-20 and a 32-20 pump actions and my 218 Bee pump action should be finished in the next few weeks.
Next up is figuring out how to do a . If you want something do you're homework and figure out how and make it happen