Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action, self loading rifles and other miscellaneous longarms.

Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by Download » 26 Sep 2017, 11:01 pm

I started working on this idea a few years ago and what to get back to it, even more so as I finally get close to the end of my engineering degree. Basically a pump-action rifle using Glock magazines in a range of pistol calibres (initially 9mm, but later expanding to 45ACP/460 Rowland, 10mm Auto, .357 Sig)

While it seems a bit odd this would have some upsides:
*9mm out of a carbine length barrel makes IPSC minor PF.
*9mm is far cheaper to buy and reload than any centre fire rifle cartridge.
*Many ranges (including most of the ranges at my club) are only rated for handgun calibres. It may be possible to get an exemption to use "pistol calibre" rifles (i.e. approved pistol calibres from a list) on pistol ranges.
*Larger calibres will make good .357 and .44 magnum replacements in hunting. .460 Rowland should make major PF.

To reduce costs my current thinking is to use an AR15 stock, pistol grip and trigger parts. Parts commonality across the whole calibre range; the only differences should be the bolt head, barrel and barrel extension. Will probably use magazine well inserts to get the magazine sizes right. May also have a split low/upper receiver design like the AR15 to allow easy calibre swaps.

I'm mostly looking for feedback and who would be interested it this point.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by wrenchman » 27 Sep 2017, 12:24 am

taurus did make one for a while called the thunder bolt they were in revolver rounds
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by bladeracer » 27 Sep 2017, 3:21 am

Download,

I don't understand your point about Power Factor - 9mm out of a pistol barrel makes Minor already.
I think 9mm is too anaemic for a rifle, .357 Magnum is about as weak as I'd be interested in. I would think you'd have a larger potential market if you build something that can also be used for hunting rather than just competition.
The modular concept is good, but I doubt I'd have any interest in a pump-action pistol-caliber rifle. Pumps work great in high-recoil cartridges but do nothing for me in light cartridges. Do you think it can be done cost-effectively to complete with pistol-caliber lever rifles?
I see sense in sticking with a common handgun magazine, but that also greatly restricts your cartridge choices.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by Mr.Seacucumber » 27 Sep 2017, 10:44 am

I would buy lots of them. I've been considering funding a project to convert a 7615 to take glock mags but it's a little down the list of things to do.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by Download » 27 Sep 2017, 12:14 pm

bladeracer wrote:I don't understand your point about Power Factor - 9mm out of a pistol barrel makes Minor already.

There's a difference between minor in pistol and minor in rifle power factors.

I think 9mm is too anaemic for a rifle, .357 Magnum is about as weak as I'd be interested in. I would think you'd have a larger potential market if you build something that can also be used for hunting rather than just competition.

I did suggest other cartridges, most of which are in the .357Mag and greater range, and .460 Rowland even makes .44Mag energies.

The modular concept is good, but I doubt I'd have any interest in a pump-action pistol-caliber rifle. Pumps work great in high-recoil cartridges but do nothing for me in light cartridges. Do you think it can be done cost-effectively to complete with pistol-caliber lever rifles?

In mechanical complexity and machining time I'm imagining it will be similar to an AR15. In the US many small shops manage to produce small runs of AR15s and compete with the big names, producing guns well under US$1k. The man price competitor though will be the Remington 7615.

The gun will also have the advantage over lever guns in being faster firing and quicker to reload.

I see sense in sticking with a common handgun magazine, but that also greatly restricts your cartridge choices.

Glock makes handguns in pretty much every mainstream rimless pistol calibre. What more would you want?

Mr.Seacucumber wrote:I would buy lots of them. I've been considering funding a project to convert a 7615 to take glock mags but it's a little down the list of things to do.

That was my initial thought but I wasn't sure people would want to spend $1600+ on a rifle and then a lot more for a conversion kit. The 7615 design isn't very good anyway.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by wrenchman » 27 Sep 2017, 12:21 pm

i have thought about the mossberg 500 action for the 410 could be barreled in a caliber like 45 long colt
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by brett1868 » 27 Sep 2017, 1:19 pm

I love the idea so consider me onboard :) I can't see how power factor comes into play for a rifle though. Top of my list would be a 460 Magnum or S&W 500 as they pack plenty of punch and perfect for a scrub gun.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by Mr.Seacucumber » 27 Sep 2017, 2:15 pm

brett1868 wrote:I love the idea so consider me onboard :) I can't see how power factor comes into play for a rifle though. Top of my list would be a 460 Magnum or S&W 500 as they pack plenty of punch and perfect for a scrub gun.


Hay Brett I'm know your like a multiple billionaire have you ever considered asking a company in the states to fit a stock to a S&W 500 with the longer barrel and then import it as a rifle?

As long as it enters the country with a unique serial number and the stock is permanent it should be good to go :thumbsup:
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by No1Mk3 » 27 Sep 2017, 2:34 pm

Rifle looks like an AR? Can see plenty of numbys freaking out already, best paint it canary yellow or soothing green because black will attract the ban hammer. I can see the advantage of a box magazine for IPSC comps, but a Colt Lightning already fulfills all the other requirements. I feel you would need to do a very thorough, and cold headed, market appraisal prior to starting to tool up, Cheers.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by bladeracer » 27 Sep 2017, 5:24 pm

Download wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I don't understand your point about Power Factor - 9mm out of a pistol barrel makes Minor already.


Download wrote:There's a difference between minor in pistol and minor in rifle power factors.


There is? I had no idea power factors even enter the equation with rifles. A bit of a Google tells me pistol PF is 125 for minor and 160 for major, and rifle is 150 and 320. Shotguns are 480 for major PF.

I think 9mm is too anaemic for a rifle, .357 Magnum is about as weak as I'd be interested in. I would think you'd have a larger potential market if you build something that can also be used for hunting rather than just competition.


Download wrote:I did suggest other cartridges, most of which are in the .357Mag and greater range, and .460 Rowland even makes .44Mag energies.


But they won't be able to use Glock mags will they?

The modular concept is good, but I doubt I'd have any interest in a pump-action pistol-caliber rifle. Pumps work great in high-recoil cartridges but do nothing for me in light cartridges. Do you think it can be done cost-effectively to complete with pistol-caliber lever rifles?


Download wrote:In mechanical complexity and machining time I'm imagining it will be similar to an AR15. In the US many small shops manage to produce small runs of AR15s and compete with the big names, producing guns well under US$1k. The man price competitor though will be the Remington 7615.


I don't see that being much of a competition unless you chamber this in more powerful hunting cartridges.

Download wrote:The gun will also have the advantage over lever guns in being faster firing and quicker to reload.


Not of interest to me. If you are building it purely for competition you'll need to start with how many competition handgun shooters do we have in Oz, and how many of those would have any interest in paying a couple grand for a larger (but no more powerful) pistol. In the field I don't need faster than a bolt or quicker to reload.

I see sense in sticking with a common handgun magazine, but that also greatly restricts your cartridge choices.

Download wrote:Glock makes handguns in pretty much every mainstream rimless pistol calibre. What more would you want?


Something other than rimless perhaps? Rimless cases need to headspace on the case mouth. In my opinion, headspacing on the rim or the shoulder is a better idea. Handgun cartridges need to be compact because they're used in handguns. Retaining that restriction when building a rifle doesn't make sense to me.

Mr.Seacucumber wrote:I would buy lots of them. I've been considering funding a project to convert a 7615 to take glock mags but it's a little down the list of things to do.

Download wrote:That was my initial thought but I wasn't sure people would want to spend $1600+ on a rifle and then a lot more for a conversion kit. The 7615 design isn't very good anyway.


You're set! As long as you can break even on the "lots of them" that MrSC buys I'd say tool up ;-)

Why not just put a 9mm into one of the chassis systems already around?
Personally, I would just build what you want around an existing firearm and see how well it works.

I spent a lot of time practicing shooting the "head" of the IPSC Torso Target at 80m with my 9mm, so even with a tilting barrel the cartridge is certainly accurate enough.

What is it that you feel a pistol-caliber rifle offers over a pistol? I can see that a butt stock greatly improves accuracy for shooting past 100m, but is there any significant benefit to a longer barrel in a pistol cartridge? I shot with guys that were making major in 9mm, and that's higher than minor PF in rifle class. It's hard on the gun but it is usually achievable, even from the standard-length pistol barrel. Cartridges bigger than 9mm probably already make minor rifle class from pistol barrels anyway.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by Download » 27 Sep 2017, 5:35 pm

bladeracer wrote:You're set! As long as you can break even on the "lots of them" that MrSC buys I'd say tool up ;-)

Why not just put a 9mm into one of the chassis systems already around?

Because converting a pistol into a rifle/carbine is usually illegal in most states.

What is it that you feel a pistol-caliber rifle offers over a pistol? I can see that a butt stock greatly improves accuracy for shooting past 100m, but is there any significant benefit to a longer barrel in a pistol cartridge? I shot with guys that were making major in 9mm, and that's higher than minor PF in rifle class. It's hard on the gun but it is usually achievable, even from the standard-length pistol barrel. Cartridges bigger than 9mm probably already make minor rifle class from pistol barrels anyway.

Because pistols are not rifles. The whole point here is to design a rifle that is cheap to feed, meets IPSC rifle minor PF and can hopefully be used on a pistol range.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by bladeracer » 27 Sep 2017, 6:26 pm

Download wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Why not just put a 9mm into one of the chassis systems already around?

Download wrote:Because converting a pistol into a rifle/carbine is usually illegal in most states.


I'm not talking about turning a pistol into a rifle, which is not the purpose of the pistol chassis anyway. Put a stock on a pistol and convert the tilting-barrel semi-auto pistol into a fixed-barrel pump-action. I don't see any need for a rifle-length barrel (other than to make it compliant as a rifle, which you don't need for a proof-of-concept). Put a 10-12" barrel on it to support the pump while keeping it under rifle length. Put a few thousand rounds through it and if you think you have something others might want then start designing your own version from scratch.

bladeracer wrote:What is it that you feel a pistol-caliber rifle offers over a pistol? I can see that a butt stock greatly improves accuracy for shooting past 100m, but is there any significant benefit to a longer barrel in a pistol cartridge? I shot with guys that were making major in 9mm, and that's higher than minor PF in rifle class. It's hard on the gun but it is usually achievable, even from the standard-length pistol barrel. Cartridges bigger than 9mm probably already make minor rifle class from pistol barrels anyway.

Download wrote:Because pistols are not rifles. The whole point here is to design a rifle that is cheap to feed, meets IPSC rifle minor PF and can hopefully be used on a pistol range.


But wouldn't a lever-action .357 or .44 Magnum rifle meet those needs already, and at half the cost? Any of the pistol cartridges are cheap to feed cast lead bullets, as are rifle cartridges. I shoot 8x57mm cast lead for 15-25c a shot, depending on whether I buy fresh lead or dig it out of the dam wall.

I'm afraid I just don't see any value in such a contraption at all. Rifles and pistols suit two different purposes. Building a rifle but crippling it to perform like a pistol just seems a mistake to me. About the only potentially useful feature I can see is the box magazines, but that doesn't come close to outweighing the fact that you're still stuck with a pistol cartridge in my opinion. Maybe design a conversion for running pistol mags on the pistol-caliber lever guns? That could be an interesting concept that opens up the range of bullets that can be used.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by bladeracer » 27 Sep 2017, 6:27 pm

Download wrote:Because pistols are not rifles. The whole point here is to design a rifle that is cheap to feed, meets IPSC rifle minor PF and can hopefully be used on a pistol range.


Can we currently use any rifles on IPSC pistol ranges?
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by Download » 27 Sep 2017, 7:25 pm

bladeracer wrote:But wouldn't a lever-action .357 or .44 Magnum rifle meet those needs already, and at half the cost? Any of the pistol cartridges are cheap to feed cast lead bullets, as are rifle cartridges. I shoot 8x57mm cast lead for 15-25c a shot, depending on whether I buy fresh lead or dig it out of the dam wall.

I haven't named a price yet so its a bit steep to be making claims about costs. Shooting cast bullets may be acceptable for major PF but you won't see people doing the same with .223 Remington.

I'm afraid I just don't see any value in such a contraption at all. Rifles and pistols suit two different purposes. Building a rifle but crippling it to perform like a pistol just seems a mistake to me. About the only potentially useful feature I can see is the box magazines, but that doesn't come close to outweighing the fact that you're still stuck with a pistol cartridge in my opinion. Maybe design a conversion for running pistol mags on the pistol-caliber lever guns? That could be an interesting concept that opens up the range of bullets that can be used.

So you all those people out there who hunt with .357 Magnums and the like are wasting their time? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying to me.

bladeracer wrote:Can we currently use any rifles on IPSC pistol ranges?

Many ranges are only approved by the police for specific calibres.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by bladeracer » 27 Sep 2017, 7:54 pm

Download wrote:I haven't named a price yet so its a bit steep to be making claims about costs. Shooting cast bullets may be acceptable for major PF but you won't see people doing the same with .223 Remington.


I can't see you doing these for anything less than a couple grand a piece. Have a look at Serbu's RN-50 for a very, very simple rifle that sells reasonably well but still commands a steep price to be viable. And he owns his own CNC equipment to do it all in-house. You could probably have everything made on CNC in Asia and then just assemble it here I guess. But unless you plan to set up as a firearm manufacturer here I would think you would have to contract the entire build to an existing manufacturer.

.223 is very significantly more powerful than 9mm, and people do indeed shoot cast .223 bullets because they're cheap. But to get .223 up to minor rifle requires more velocity than most people would want with cast bullets. A 110gn .308 though only needs 1400fps which is easily doable in cast.
I don't think anybody at all used jacketed bullets in competition when I was shooting IPSC, not even the heavily sponsored team shooters.

bladeracer wrote:I'm afraid I just don't see any value in such a contraption at all. Rifles and pistols suit two different purposes. Building a rifle but crippling it to perform like a pistol just seems a mistake to me. About the only potentially useful feature I can see is the box magazines, but that doesn't come close to outweighing the fact that you're still stuck with a pistol cartridge in my opinion. Maybe design a conversion for running pistol mags on the pistol-caliber lever guns? That could be an interesting concept that opens up the range of bullets that can be used.


Download wrote:So you all those people out there who hunt with .357 Magnums and the like are wasting their time? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying to me.


Not at all. But the rimmed magnums are a fair bit more capable than 9mm. I doubt too many hunters would want to replace their .357's with 9mm. I just bought a pile of .357 and .44 Magnum brass myself. As I said, in my first response, 9mm is too anemic for hunting in my opinion. The rimmed pistol cartridges are much better choices, but they don't suit Glock mags, which was my point. If you don't base it on Glock mags then you can work with more versatile cartridges than rimless pistol. But then you lose the modularity of sticking with an existing magazine.

bladeracer wrote:Can we currently use any rifles on IPSC pistol ranges?

Download wrote:Many ranges are only approved by the police for specific calibres.


Yes, I'm aware of that. But are rifles allowed on pistol ranges even when chambered in pistol cartridges, or are they simply classed as rifles and thus not allowed?
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by in2anity » 27 Sep 2017, 8:18 pm

https://www.tcarms.com/firearms/interch ... er#barrels

https://dandtcustomgunworks.websitetool ... st-5264779

http://www.ozgunsales.com/listing/42151 ... ximum.html

.35 is the way to go - many options ranging from cast lead pistol, to higher BC .35 rem. I doubt pistol ranges are going to be very accommodative of shooting what looks like a rifle though...
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by bladeracer » 27 Sep 2017, 8:22 pm

To more clearly answer your question - "Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?"

My general answer is, possibly.
But it is tempered by a number of variables, like calibers, price and fun-factor.
In rimless pistol cartridges? - nope.
In magnum rimmed cartridges?, significantly more likely.
For IPSC use? - nope. For me, "practical" is the keyword in IPSC competition.
For more than I can buy a budget hunting bolt rifle or a pistol-caliber lever rifle for? - nope.
Being a pump-action is a major downside for me as well.
Detachable box mags don't sway me either way, just unnecessary. But the Ruger rotary might be an option for you to build something around the .357 or .44 magnums.

I'll also qualify that I don't like pumps or levers, but I'm about to buy at least three lever rifles, and probably several more. However, they do offer decent versatility being rimmed magnum cartridges, that can also be loaded down as required.
Pump shotguns work brilliantly because they have enough recoil to operate the action, and don't require regaining a sight picture for each shot.
Pump .22's do not, so I just find the system annoying on those. I can't recall ever shooting a pump in anything other than .22LR or 12ga, but I have used levers in a variety of cartridges.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by BRNO_Bigot » 27 Sep 2017, 9:14 pm

wrenchman wrote:taurus did make one for a while called the thunder bolt they were in revolver rounds


I had one for Western Action, but it was too different, and I was subjected to silly requirements by people who didn't understand the how it actually worked, so idiots were always running up while I was loading it screaming "unsafe, unsafe" because the action had to be open to load, unlike a lever rifle.

It was a copy of the Colt Lightning.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by Mr.Seacucumber » 28 Sep 2017, 8:41 am

BRNO_Bigot wrote:
wrenchman wrote:taurus did make one for a while called the thunder bolt they were in revolver rounds


I had one for Western Action, but it was too different, and I was subjected to silly requirements by people who didn't understand the how it actually worked, so idiots were always running up while I was loading it screaming "unsafe, unsafe" because the action had to be open to load, unlike a lever rifle.

It was a copy of the Colt Lightning.


What? Haha Western Action peeps are a funny bunch.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by sungazer » 28 Sep 2017, 9:11 am

There is a Pistol range in Mansfield that is open 24/7 and you can shoot even a 308 there.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by bladeracer » 28 Sep 2017, 7:21 pm

Mr.Seacucumber wrote:What? Haha Western Action peeps are a funny bunch.


You've only got to see how they dress to know that :-)
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by bigpete » 28 Sep 2017, 8:14 pm

bentaz wrote:I like the IMI Timberwolf, but not so much the sound of your more modern version. Not saying its a bad idea just not my style.


Second that. Pity the price !
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by BRNO_Bigot » 28 Sep 2017, 9:38 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Mr.Seacucumber wrote:What? Haha Western Action peeps are a funny bunch.


You've only got to see how they dress to know that :-)


Nonetheless, a lot of fun if the people are congenial.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by bear foot bowhunter » 04 Dec 2017, 11:02 am

500s&w 44mag defintly interested in somthing like that esepsly mag fed posibly evern somthin along the lines of small big boar rifle rounds
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by Hugh » 17 Dec 2017, 5:25 am

458 casull would do it for me.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by Jakethefake » 17 Dec 2017, 5:29 pm

I would love to have one. When I was in Canada I had a Keltec Sub 2000. It was enormously fun. I didn't use it for hunting or competition, just for fun, and it was fun. I reloaded so it was very cheap to shoot, and because it took a pistol mag you could have 10 rounds in it (in Canada semi auto centerfire rifles are limited to 5 round magazine capacity, unless it takes a pistol magazine, which are limited to 10 rounds).
I'd love to have one again, but obviously its not going to happen here. I've been thinking of getting an Alfa Proj carbine in 357, as it seems to be the closest I can get, in terms of how much fun it should be.
So a pump action pistol carbine would be awesome. But you would have to get the cost down one way or the other, or they'll be real tough sell. I would look at having it manufactured in Turkey or the Phillipines.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by jovialjosie2002 » 29 Dec 2017, 7:02 am

I have always wanted a pump action in 9mm or 357. The problem is the cost and limited availability on the market. The only one I could find was the Israeli one......I think it was about $3000!!! The only other alternative was the Remington 7615 (aka jamamatic), in my opinion, this is also way overpriced. If I remember correctly, the map in USA was about $500, so why are we paying $1800 for them here????
I reckon you are on a winner if you manufacture a 9mm or 357 Magnum pump for the Australian market. You may even be able to export it to other countries that have strict hand gun laws like Australia....e.g. UK.
I personally don't know why Lithgow didn't do it, after all, their current bolt action has some serious competition to deal with in Howa and tikka.
A pump action in a pistol calibre has very little competition in Australia.
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by Tripod » 29 Dec 2017, 8:54 am

I think small calibre pumpy's are great, I have 25-20 and a 32-20 pump actions and my 218 Bee pump action should be finished in the next few weeks. :D
Next up is figuring out how to do a 9mm. If you want something do you're homework and figure out how and make it happen
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by Jakethefake » 03 Jan 2018, 10:14 pm

Tripod wrote:I think small calibre pumpy's are great, I have 25-20 and a 32-20 pump actions and my 218 Bee pump action should be finished in the next few weeks. :D
Next up is figuring out how to do a . If you want something do you're homework and figure out how and make it happen


Where would one even begin with making a pump? Start with a 7615?
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Re: Would you buy a pistol calibre pump-action rifle?

Post by juststarting » 03 Jan 2018, 11:10 pm

I'd love one. I'd love Timberwolf, but they are very expensive and hard to find. I'd love one in 45-70 too, that would be awesome. And 9mm would be awesome. As well as 44 and 500 mag.

Or if someone would come up with a unique caliber, like say 11.3x64R, that would be a cool lead slinger. Eh! Sneaky AF here :)
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