Levers are fun :-)

Bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action, self loading rifles and other miscellaneous longarms.

Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bigpete » 04 Oct 2017, 8:54 am

Hmmm no its not
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bladeracer » 04 Oct 2017, 9:54 am

juststarting wrote:Mmmm I think this may be an underestimate.

44REM MAG using 2205 @ 19gr per cartridge (plinking load)

500gm (7716grains) of 2205 at say $45 give or take - that's 45/7716*19 = 11c per powder charge

11c powder charge
6c for primer
1c (guessing here, but let's say 1c for lube per lubed bullet, because lube components are not free)

If you're gas checking, that's another 6c

So you are looking at 18c minimum. 24c with gas check.

If you are going to count lead alloy that's not free, then say purchased WW go for $3/kg (local ripoff metal recyclers near me) - 240gr bullet (16gm), that's roughly another 6c (rounded up to 5c + 1c overhead because 3kg of raw material is less after fluxing).

So depends how you do it, you are looking at 18c - 30c


For plinking I wouldn't use rifle powder. I'll be using either around 6gn of AP70N or 4gn of Trailboss so yes, closer to 10cents a shot with reclaimed lead. I'm casting 200gn bullets so 76 per kg of lead at $10/kg is 13 cents a piece for new bullets. I do have about 30kg of new lead but by far most of my bullets are made from reclaimed .22LR bullets.
Lube is not free, but as I get a bottle of it with every sizing die I have several lifetimes worth already.
I bought fifty rounds of 240gn JSP American Eagle for $80 or $1.60 a shot, probably less as he did me a deal on the bundle of both rifles, the ammo and AP70N powder.
I paid $550 for 5000rds of CCI Std Vel or 11 cents a round so I'll be more than happy to shoot the .44 Mag for similar cost :-)

I'm hopeful of finding an hour to throw some cast lead later today.
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bigpete » 04 Oct 2017, 11:31 am

You got the idea. 7gn of trailboss don't cost much
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by juststarting » 04 Oct 2017, 11:38 am

All I'm hearing is that I need more powder :)
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bladeracer » 04 Oct 2017, 11:44 am

juststarting wrote:All I'm hearing is that I need more powder :)



You say that now, and then you get home and start wondering "where the hell can I fit another bottle of powder?" :-)
Powder takes up more room than shot shells!
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by juststarting » 04 Oct 2017, 11:47 am

Already buy in 4kg ;)
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bladeracer » 04 Oct 2017, 2:36 pm

I put my Redfield Retribution 3-9x on the Norinco just now and put 100rds of CCI SV through it at 50m. I burned the first box just trying to zero the damned scope, thought I had it then in the middle of a group it shifted about seven-inches to the left.
Pretty happy with the rifle though :-)
If I make an effort I can put five rounds into one-inch at 50m, ten rounds opens it up a bit, but even fifteen rounds still fall within a two-inch circle.
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by Sydor » 04 Oct 2017, 7:33 pm

Chiappa in .357 is a beauty!
All of them, but Alaskan is the best!
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bladeracer » 05 Oct 2017, 8:21 am

Sydor wrote:Chiappa in .357 is a beauty!
All of them, but Alaskan is the best!


I'm really not into what they look like, how they handle and how they shoot is what matters to me :-)
I do intend to get a .357 lever as well though.

I also put some boxes of Eley Sport, Eley Subsonic, Eley Edge and Highland Target through the JW21 yesterday.
While it can shoot some excellent four-shot clusters in five-shot groups, there's invariably one flier way out. Something odd is the number of times the first shot from a full magazine drops low left.
415rds through it so far.

Feeding can be a problem, though it seems to mainly be due to bullet design, and particularly HP bullets tend to jam into the right side of the chamber edge - there's quite a collection of shaved lead in the right side of the action. I can't recall any that have caught on the left side so it might be a matter of adjusting the lifter perhaps. Less likely with the CCI SV, but still an occasional jam. I've had two or three rounds come off the lifter and jam up the action, including one instance where I discovered three rounds bouncing around in the action, despite only opened the lever once - maybe the magazine cut-off was dirty. And a few times the bullet has gone into the chamber okay but the case head has been high or low against the bolt face and the case gets jammed into the chamber at an angle. No entirely unexpected problems so far and hopefully a good cleaning, inspection and some finesse and polishing might be able to improve it. It's not possible to simply drop a round into the action and have it chamber as with a pump shotgun, so loading it singly is a real pain - I would not suggest ever taking it to any range that requires single-loading.

I've only owned one tube-mag .22 before - Winchester Model 190 - brilliant little rifle, accurate and would feed everything without a glitch - but I now recall why I don't like tube mags :-) No way of knowing what's left in the tube, and slow, awkward loading at the wrong end of the barrel. The Henry captive follower is a better system than the full-length removable tube that you need to coax over each of the fifteen rims to get it back in.

Ejection is very positive, hurling the brass out at two-o'clock. Once I sort the feeding problems then I'll be able to make up some sort of case catcher for it. There is no accommodation for comfort of the firing hand. Working the lever with the back of the fingers is just painful, and having to remove the hand to operate it with the thumb removes any advantage the lever design might offer over a bolt rifle. Gripping the wrist through the loop is equally uncomfortable due to the narrow sharp edges. I'm thinking I might have to round off all the edges and either re-blue or polish the lever, but I'll try wrapping it in rubber tube first.

I think before I do any more shooting with it I'll have to strip it completely to clean and inspect everything.
But overall, the fun factor is high, and the accuracy is reasonable - I quite enjoy shooting it :-)
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bladeracer » 06 Oct 2017, 5:19 pm

I managed to get some casting done today - 250 200gn .429", 100 125gn .358" and 150 90gn .314" bullets.
I'll lube some of the .429's tonight and load them up for testing tomorrow. And hopefully I can try powder coating some over the weekend.
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bladeracer » 11 Oct 2017, 5:16 pm

Well, I managed to get out in the rain this arvo and shoot some .44 Magnum and put another 50rds through the JW21.
The 200gn FP's I cast I pushed with 7.5gn of Trailboss. They shot nicely but accuracy was abysmal - something around 500mm at 50m, and about 400mm to the left, although elevation was fine.
I'll have to try again, but I'm glad I only loaded five of them for testing. They penetrated only two layers of my 16mm rubber bullet stop.
The Norinco shot really well with only one jam in fifty rounds when a round fell off the right side of the lifter. I dropped it into the chamber but it was the last round of the upper right group and flew way off to the left, ruining an otherwise nice cluster. But I did shoot a five-round 16.5mm group with CCI SV which is pretty impressive I think.

And the conveyor belt bullet stop works mint, all the bullets simply drop into the tray at the bottom, no more digging them out with the metal detector! I found two strange ones though, where a bullet has embedded itself into one that was stuck in the rubber and they've become twice the normal size of a .22LR bullet :-) At 50m, roughly a third of the .22's embedded themselves into the second sheet, but I'm sure they'll also drop free as I shoot more into it.
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by Wm.Traynor » 11 Oct 2017, 7:16 pm

Crikey mate; that was done in adverse conditions :thumbsup:
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by Tripod » 11 Oct 2017, 7:22 pm

DSCN1008.JPG
This is the Marlin section. Pity they aren't all here at the moment.
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I agree they are fun.
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bladeracer » 11 Oct 2017, 7:41 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:Crikey mate; that was done in adverse conditions :thumbsup:


Often the case down here, but at least the wind was quiet for a change :-)
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bladeracer » 11 Oct 2017, 8:04 pm

Tripod wrote:
DSCN1008.JPG
I agree they are fun.


Looks like you're the Marlin expert then!
On a hunch I just put a light down the bore and it looks to me that this thing is micro-grooved. I'm guessing that is going to have some bearing on what sort of bullets I need to feed it?
This looks to me like it shot these cast bullets as if it were a smoothbore :-)
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bladeracer » 11 Oct 2017, 8:14 pm

sungazer wrote:Its a nice bullet stop you've made. That initial accuracy at 50m doesn't sound good though. Not much fun shooting if you cant hit what your aiming for.


I'm very impressed with it, although actually getting it erected was problematic :-)

I'm thinking the micro-groove rifling of the Marlin is the problem - need to do some research on casting for these.
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by Tripod » 11 Oct 2017, 8:24 pm

You need to slug the bore and acurately measure the size, Then cast 2 thou bigger. What lube and velocity?
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bladeracer » 11 Oct 2017, 8:59 pm

Tripod wrote:You need to slug the bore and acurately measure the size, Then cast 2 thou bigger. What lube and velocity?


.4265" grooves, .4290" lands.
But I think you might've found the cause. I just measured a handful, and while most bullets are .4295-.4300", a lot are down as far as 0.4270". My lead temperature was not consistent as it was running between 700F up to 1100F at one point so that might explain the size differences. I'll go through and pull out some .430" bullets and load those to see if it's any better. I had a similar problem shooting undersize cast bullets in the .303 as well.

I just lubed these test bullets with Alox but my intention was to powdercoat these for the .44 Magnum.
I didn't get the chrono out due to the rain and cloud cover, at a wild guess I think they're subsonic.
The Federal American Eagle 240gn JHP are listed at 1180fps but I assume from a handgun barrel. My Trailboss loads are far easier on the shoulder than the factory loads.
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by Tripod » 11 Oct 2017, 9:22 pm

In my experience if the microgrooves measure .429 you will need the projectiles to measure .431 to get them to shoot. PC may help because it will increase the diameter but I have never tried PC myself so please put up your results.
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by SHV » 14 Oct 2017, 10:30 pm

will get my third lever very soon :lol:

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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by Wm.Traynor » 15 Oct 2017, 9:44 am

SHV
Hell that's pretty :o
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by juststarting » 15 Oct 2017, 3:23 pm

So this inspired me to cast some bullets today... I think I am over the ladle - smelter thing. Could have doubled my speed if I had bottom pour smelter. Bah!
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bladeracer » 15 Oct 2017, 3:31 pm

juststarting wrote:So this inspired me to cast some bullets today... I think I am over the ladle - smelter thing. Could have doubled my speed if I had bottom pour smelter. Bah!


It's a melter, not a smelter :-)
I like both. I think using the ladle might actually work better for the bigger stuff, say over 200gns or so, although I'm considering drilling out my bottom pour spout to a larger size.
My last melt was problematic and I don't know why. Temperature was 700F on level 9, but it obviously gets hotter as you use the alloy so you need to keep turning it down. But I was down to level 4 and it still spiked near 1100F until I topped up the pot and wound it back up. Wasn't a good time at all. It might just be that I was throwing 430gns with each pour and I need to get more experienced at draining the pot so quickly.
When my new .432" mould comes next week I'm thinking I'll use the Lyman ladle with the pour spout and dip straight from the dutch oven on the gas burner.
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by juststarting » 15 Oct 2017, 3:33 pm

It's a furnace actually, I'm just venting
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by scoobs » 15 Oct 2017, 5:22 pm

bladeracer wrote:
juststarting wrote:So this inspired me to cast some bullets today... I think I am over the ladle - smelter thing. Could have doubled my speed if I had bottom pour smelter. Bah!


It's a melter, not a smelter :-)
I like both. I think using the ladle might actually work better for the bigger stuff, say over 200gns or so, although I'm considering drilling out my bottom pour spout to a larger size.
My last melt was problematic and I don't know why. Temperature was 700F on level 9, but it obviously gets hotter as you use the alloy so you need to keep turning it down. But I was down to level 4 and it still spiked near 1100F until I topped up the pot and wound it back up. Wasn't a good time at all. It might just be that I was throwing 430gns with each pour and I need to get more experienced at draining the pot so quickly.
When my new .432" mould comes next week I'm thinking I'll use the Lyman ladle with the pour spout and dip straight from the dutch oven on the gas burner.



you mean the bullet liquid heater?
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by juststarting » 15 Oct 2017, 5:32 pm

Ye, the pew pew liquifier for me boomstick
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bladeracer » 20 Oct 2017, 8:14 pm

Got my new CBE .432" mould this arvo. Dumped the 200gn .429's I cast last week back into the pot and turned them into 180 248gn .432" bullets tonight. I'll lube some tonight so I can test shoot them tomorrow. I'll have to load up some 265gn FTX's and see what they shoot like as well. Also got two more scopes to put on the levers for accuracy testing. And got a Boyd AR15 stock set for the MDT chassis. If my brother decides he does want an MDT built using this stuff to be legal in ACT then I'll have to cut down the front of the stock and blend it into the chassis.
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by bladeracer » 22 Oct 2017, 7:09 pm

I loaded ten rounds with the new 248gn .432" bullets, unsized and lubed with Alox on 7.5gns of Trailboss and tested them yesterday.
A huge improvement over the 215gn .429" bullets but still not great yet.
All ten went into about 3" at 50m, despite the velocity varying from 964fps up to 1304fps, although the last one was a great deal faster than the rest. Discounting that one they averaged around 1060fps.
I also put ten more Federal 240gn factory loads through it for a baseline. They went into 40mm at 50m with velocities of 1740-1766fps.

I have to lap the .429" sizing die out to .432" but I think I'll try some with powdercoat next and also some with gas checks. I'm hopeful of getting them down to sub-3MoA at least. I think higher pressures might also be worth a try.

I should have added that I also mounted a Bushnell AR Optics 4.5-18x40 scope on it for this testing.
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by Mick280 » 22 Oct 2017, 9:42 pm

Love em!!!
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Re: Levers are fun :-)

Post by SHV » 26 Oct 2017, 8:39 am

Wm.Traynor wrote:SHV
Hell that's pretty :o


got it :lol:

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