WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

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WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 08 Nov 2017, 8:51 pm

got my WIN94 LONG time ago

thought I've posted about this rifle but can not find

finally found some dirt cheap projectiles, so started to reload, today got time to try at St Mary's, I am lucky the first batch it's not too bad :lol:

here's the rifle

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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 08 Nov 2017, 8:52 pm

dirt cheap projectile

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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 08 Nov 2017, 8:54 pm

cost about 30 cents per round

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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 08 Nov 2017, 8:59 pm

not too bad for iron sight 50 meters 5 shot? :lol:
I believe there are a lot of guys can do it much better but for me this is my best ever

AR 2207 (there is typo in the photo, it is 2207 rather than 2208) 21.1gr, 170 gr hard coat lead cast bullet CCI primer

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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by in2anity » 08 Nov 2017, 10:13 pm

Nice SHV - love your work mate, all things considered that’s a bloody tidy group for irons :thumbsup: They must be fairly hard to handle 21gr; holes look nice and concentric so looks to be stabilizing well. Just curious how low did you go? 17gr 2207 under a cast bullet is popular in the 30/30. Did you chrono them?
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by wrenchman » 09 Nov 2017, 12:02 am

are you loading a gas check behind them
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by Daddybang » 09 Nov 2017, 5:56 am

Hey shv ya getting a nice collection together.good work!!! :thumbsup:
This hard living ain't as easy as it used to be!!!
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 09 Nov 2017, 7:50 am

wrenchman wrote:are you loading a gas check behind them


no gas check
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 09 Nov 2017, 7:51 am

Daddybang wrote:Hey shv ya getting a nice collection together.good work!!! :thumbsup:



thanks :lol:
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 09 Nov 2017, 7:56 am

in2anity wrote:Nice SHV - love your work mate, all things considered that’s a bloody tidy group for irons :thumbsup: They must be fairly hard to handle 21gr; holes look nice and concentric so looks to be stabilizing well. Just curious how low did you go? 17gr 2207 under a cast bullet is popular in the 30/30. Did you chrono them?


I tried 21.1 and 22.2, they all ok, got less recoil than the factory ammo, only thing is the smoke is quite heavy, I will try 17gr maybe 18 19 and 20 next time to see if the smoke is due to 21.1 is too hot( burn the coating and strip lead)

according ADI data, for 170gr bullet AR2207 charge from 20.5-22.5gr and speed from 1764 to 1918, the speed of 21.1gr powder should be around 1800 I reckon if the cast lead and jacket bullet are the same or similar (school me if there are different and the cast lead need less charge)
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 09 Nov 2017, 8:26 am

TB 10.0gr same projectiles 25 meters

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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by in2anity » 09 Nov 2017, 1:48 pm

SHV the rifle tables are more for jacketed projectiles, you should really be using the “SINGLE ACTION DATA” instead (also on the ADI website) i.e. http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloade ... Winchester

Your TB group has some room for improvement; 10gr TB is pretty hot for the 30/30, I’d start at 7gr min 9gr max, moving up in .5 or even .3 GR increments.

With regard to your 2207 load; 2207 isn’t the cleanest powder, then again it shouldn’t cause excessive smoke. Your theory about the velocity might be plausible. That 21.2gr would be a good small-medium game hunting load though; I’ve hunted with 20gr 2206 under cast; it expanded ok, reasonable accuracy. But yeah, for 2207 try starting at 16gr through to 20gr, possibly with magnum primers.

Keep up the good work!
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 09 Nov 2017, 2:12 pm

in2anity wrote:SHV the rifle tables are more for jacketed projectiles, you should really be using the “SINGLE ACTION DATA” instead (also on the ADI website) i.e. http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloade ... Winchester

Your TB group has some room for improvement; 10gr TB is pretty hot for the 30/30, I’d start at 7gr min 9gr max, moving up in .5 or even .3 GR increments.

With regard to your 2207 load; 2207 isn’t the cleanest powder, then again it shouldn’t cause excessive smoke. Your theory about the velocity might be plausible. That 21.2gr would be a good small-medium game hunting load though; I’ve hunted with 20gr 2206 under cast; it expanded ok, reasonable accuracy. But yeah, for 2207 try starting at 16gr through to 20gr, possibly with magnum primers.

Keep up the good work!


will do and update later :drinks:
thanks a lot and BTW what's single action data for? is it mainly for cast lead?
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by in2anity » 09 Nov 2017, 4:37 pm

SHV wrote:
in2anity wrote:SHV the rifle tables are more for jacketed projectiles, you should really be using the “SINGLE ACTION DATA” instead (also on the ADI website) i.e. http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloade ... Winchester

Your TB group has some room for improvement; 10gr TB is pretty hot for the 30/30, I’d start at 7gr min 9gr max, moving up in .5 or even .3 GR increments.

With regard to your 2207 load; 2207 isn’t the cleanest powder, then again it shouldn’t cause excessive smoke. Your theory about the velocity might be plausible. That 21.2gr would be a good small-medium game hunting load though; I’ve hunted with 20gr 2206 under cast; it expanded ok, reasonable accuracy. But yeah, for 2207 try starting at 16gr through to 20gr, possibly with magnum primers.

Keep up the good work!


will do and update later :drinks:
thanks a lot and BTW what's single action data for? is it mainly for cast lead?


It’s for single-action cowboy shooting, where you can only shoot lead (close range, metal targets, reduced loads)
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by ebr love » 15 Nov 2017, 3:44 pm

Looks like Hulk brand ammo :lol:
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 15 Nov 2017, 8:58 pm

in2anity wrote:
SHV wrote:
in2anity wrote:SHV the rifle tables are more for jacketed projectiles, you should really be using the “SINGLE ACTION DATA” instead (also on the ADI website) i.e. http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloade ... Winchester

Your TB group has some room for improvement; 10gr TB is pretty hot for the 30/30, I’d start at 7gr min 9gr max, moving up in .5 or even .3 GR increments.

With regard to your 2207 load; 2207 isn’t the cleanest powder, then again it shouldn’t cause excessive smoke. Your theory about the velocity might be plausible. That 21.2gr would be a good small-medium game hunting load though; I’ve hunted with 20gr 2206 under cast; it expanded ok, reasonable accuracy. But yeah, for 2207 try starting at 16gr through to 20gr, possibly with magnum primers.

Keep up the good work!


will do and update later :drinks:
thanks a lot and BTW what's single action data for? is it mainly for cast lead?


It’s for single-action cowboy shooting, where you can only shoot lead (close range, metal targets, reduced loads)


this evening I tried some 50 meters iron sight 5 shot group for 14,15,`16,17x2,18, 19 and 20gr AR2207, 20gr is similar to 21gr's group. a little bigger, 19gr got one fly otherwise unreal tight group, 3 in one big hole, another next to the cluster...18, one of 17, 16's group is normal. 15 and 14 spread away
another 17gr's group looks unreal to me, even better than 21.1's :lol:

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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 15 Nov 2017, 9:06 pm

20gr's group. normal size, similar to 18 and 16's

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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 15 Nov 2017, 9:10 pm

19's got one fly...
next time maybe try 17 and 19?

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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by in2anity » 16 Nov 2017, 7:21 am

Really good shooting SHV :thumbsup: You can also sort your projectiles based on weight; there is sometimes a surprising discrepancy in those commercial cast projectiles. Oh and another thing, you could start to experiment with lubricants; a simple pan lube of 1 part paraffin wax (candle wax),1 part pure lard and 1/2 part beeswax tightened my groups up a measurable ammount. Take a squiz at my thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6817&start=54#p106634
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 16 Nov 2017, 9:23 am

in2anity wrote:Really good shooting SHV :thumbsup: You can also sort your projectiles based on weight; there is sometimes a surprising discrepancy in those commercial cast projectiles. Oh and another thing, you could start to experiment with lubricants; a simple pan lube of 1 part paraffin wax (candle wax),1 part pure lard and 1/2 part beeswax tightened my groups up a measurable ammount. Take a squiz at my thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6817&start=54#p106634


too many things to do :crazy: try one by one maybe better idea
thanks a lot for your advises, really helpful :drinks:
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by in2anity » 16 Nov 2017, 10:27 am

SHV wrote:too many things to do :crazy: try one by one maybe better idea
thanks a lot for your advises, really helpful :drinks:


hehe yeah sorry; one step at a time. just planting some seeds.... :drinks:
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 22 Nov 2017, 8:03 pm

looks like 17gr is better, easy to get average 5 shot group like this. if can see the target more clear(used pistol target at 50 meters, front sight and target both black and the target is too big... ) should be better than this,

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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by in2anity » 23 Nov 2017, 6:21 am

SHV wrote:looks like 17gr is better, easy to get average 5 shot group like this. if can see the target more clear(used pistol target at 50 meters, front sight and target both black and the target is too big... ) should be better than this,


That looks about right; if you had some better sights it'd probably put 5 into an inch at 50m (i.e. ~2moa). SHV you should get it drilled an tapped for a rear aperture; that'll go a long way in realising the rifle's potential.
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by Oldbloke » 23 Nov 2017, 6:41 am

My understanding is that marlin micro grooves are just shallower than normal but a few more of them. Easier and cheaper to manufacture.
But that isn't great for lead bullets. They Tenn to strip at lower speeds\pressures

Even my Marlin 223 doesn't like hot loads and I think this is the reason. My 3006 is the same.
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by in2anity » 23 Nov 2017, 7:19 am

Oldbloke wrote:My understanding is that marlin micro grooves are just shallower than normal but a few more of them. Easier and cheaper to manufacture.
But that isn't great for lead bullets. They Tenn to strip at lower speeds\pressures

Even my Marlin 223 doesn't like hot loads and I think this is the reason. My 3006 is the same.


Yes, but SHV's is a Winchester?

But since you brought up the subject of the microgroove and lead; I know that's the commonly circulated theory, but I think it's more or less a myth. I've done a lot of load development for the 30/30 microgroove and I got my groups down to a consistent 2moa:

16_2207_L.jpg
REMINDER: that's a 20 shot group, without sorting the projectiles (explaining the flyers).
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I'm yet to see a winnie consistently group much tighter than that. Basically I just don't think the microgroove is that much of a (negative) factor (with lead).
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 23 Nov 2017, 9:39 am

in2anity wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:My understanding is that marlin micro grooves are just shallower than normal but a few more of them. Easier and cheaper to manufacture.
But that isn't great for lead bullets. They Tenn to strip at lower speeds\pressures

Even my Marlin 223 doesn't like hot loads and I think this is the reason. My 3006 is the same.


Yes, but SHV's is a Winchester?

With regard to the microgroove and lead; I know that's the commonly circulated theory, but I think it's more or less a myth. I've done a lot of load development for the 30/30 microgroove and I got my groups down to a consistent 2moa:

16_2207_L.jpg


I'm yet to see a winnie consistently group much tighter than that. I just don't think the microgroove is much of a (negative) factor (with lead).


yes, mine is win94
1 inch group is amazing, iron sigh or scoped?
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 23 Nov 2017, 9:43 am

in2anity wrote:
SHV wrote:looks like 17gr is better, easy to get average 5 shot group like this. if can see the target more clear(used pistol target at 50 meters, front sight and target both black and the target is too big... ) should be better than this,


That looks about right; if you had some better sights it'd probably put 5 into an inch at 50m (i.e. ~2moa). SHV you should get it drilled an tapped for a rear aperture; that'll go a long way in realising the rifle's potential.


got rear aperture now, but it is hunting aperture rather than target aperture, next time will try different target which I can see more clearly no need guess work and maybe try the small aperture

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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by in2anity » 23 Nov 2017, 9:47 am

SHV wrote:1 inch group is amazing, iron sigh or scoped?


That was with a old fixed x4 scope - that goes on for load development. That said, my .050" aperture and my front tunnel sight can produce almost, if not as-good as that if I'm shooting well (and the targets are properly lit). And to reiterate, these loads are position sensitive; I have to tilt the barrel prior to each shot to get consistent burns.
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by in2anity » 23 Nov 2017, 9:55 am

SHV wrote:got rear aperture now, but it is hunting aperture rather than target aperture, next time will try different target which I can see more clearly no need guess work and maybe try the small aperture


cool! was going to suggest the lyman looks right at-home on the 94! very nice! Btw who does your gun-smithing?
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Re: WIN94 & 30 cents 30 cal

Post by SHV » 23 Nov 2017, 9:58 am

in2anity wrote:
SHV wrote:got rear aperture now, but it is hunting aperture rather than target aperture, next time will try different target which I can see more clearly no need guess work and maybe try the small aperture


cool! was going to suggest the lyman looks right at-home on the 94! very nice! Btw who does your gun-smithing?


I am luck it already have the holes on the receiver, so just bought the lyman sight and fitted by myself
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