Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

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Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by N.Field » 12 Mar 2018, 1:13 pm

I have fired less than 50 rounds through the ME that I bought last year using factory .303 Federal 150 Gr ammo.

Each fired case shows a distinct mark about 6-7mm forward of the rim and in about one in ten, the primers are slightly backed out and have a raised ridge around the firing pin strike - visible in photo

Yesterday I fired five rounds with similar results and the on sixth the primer either ruptured or was pierced.

I had intended to trial some reloads using Federal once fired cases that were neck sized only and went ahead and fired one after the primer issue. The case separated along the forward edge of the mark mentioned. The reloads were very light Trail Boss loads using 130 Gr bullets.

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Any thoughts?
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by bladeracer » 12 Mar 2018, 1:46 pm

Is it an illusion or do the empty cases appear to have the shoulder much further up than the loaded round?
How do they measure up alongside unfired brass?
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by N.Field » 12 Mar 2018, 2:07 pm

They're further forward, fire formed to the chamber.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Mar 2018, 2:40 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the rim dictate head space.? If I'm correct seems like the chamber needs setting back?

Do you know the more recent history of the rifle? Perhaps have a smith look at it.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by marksman » 12 Mar 2018, 2:54 pm

this is a normal thing to happen when using thin 303 brass (usually win) as the brass moves forward to fill the chamber because of the shoulder
once it has been fired in your chamber it is ok, as long as it does not present a ring where it will separate or separates
to tell if a ring has formed get a bit of wire, make it an L shape and run it up the inside of the case, you will see/feel the ring
this does not mean your barrel is not head spaced properly,
it means that the ammo makers try to make a factory case that will fit all 303 chambers with thin brass
answer is to get thicker brass :drinks:
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by COLLECTOR 1 » 12 Mar 2018, 2:55 pm

If I'm not mistaken that's a head space problem..!!!! Get it checked out by a competent gun smith

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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by marksman » 12 Mar 2018, 3:01 pm

this read from enfield rifles may help
http://www.enfield-rifles.com/case-head ... c4015.html
Oldbloke is right the 303 is headspaced off the rim, this is not a headspace problem
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by N.Field » 12 Mar 2018, 3:42 pm

bentaz wrote:The fire formed brass look like .303 epps to me, maybe its been reamed?

I don't think so. The two on the right in this photo are Epps:

Image

They have less taper than my fired cases.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by N.Field » 12 Mar 2018, 3:50 pm

marksman wrote:this is a normal thing to happen when using thin 303 brass (usually win) as the brass moves forward to fill the chamber because of the shoulder
once it has been fired in your chamber it is ok, as long as it does not present a ring where it will separate or separates
to tell if a ring has formed get a bit of wire, make it an L shape and run it up the inside of the case, you will see/feel the ring
this does not mean your barrel is not head spaced properly,
it means that the ammo makers try to make a factory case that will fit all 303 chambers with thin brass
answer is to get thicker brass :drinks:


I have tried the wire trick but I'm not feeling a ring inside the cases. A very slight ridge can be felt on the outside of the case.

I have heard the PPU brass is thicker and was chasing PPU ammo but haven't been able to source any locally.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by sungazer » 12 Mar 2018, 4:02 pm

It might not be a head space issue by definition but the chamber looks to be too long and is stretching the brass to breaking point on the first or second firing. It needs a gunsmith to go over that as well as the primers that could be a bolt issue / barrel fitting or it might not be the correct bolt for that rifle.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by N.Field » 12 Mar 2018, 4:29 pm

sungazer wrote:It might not be a head space issue by definition but the chamber looks to be too long and is stretching the brass to breaking point on the first or second firing. It needs a gunsmith to go over that as well as the primers that could be a bolt issue / barrel fitting or it might not be the correct bolt for that rifle.


I just measured an unfired Federal case at 2.213". Once fired cases are measuring 2.240 - 2.243
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Mar 2018, 6:14 pm

sungazer wrote:It might not be a head space issue by definition but the chamber looks to be too long and is stretching the brass to breaking point on the first or second firing. It needs a gunsmith to go over that as well as the primers that could be a bolt issue / barrel fitting or it might not be the correct bolt for that rifle.


That's what I think.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Mar 2018, 6:19 pm

To carry out a rough head space check.
Cut a small piece of coke can the same size as the case head. If it's placed between the bolt and the cartridge the bolt should not close. If it closes you have a problem.

Let me emphasis it's a rough test.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Wombat » 12 Mar 2018, 6:26 pm

Its a Martini. So no bolt.
I'll dig out my Skenerton book on them and see if there's a method there.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Wombat » 12 Mar 2018, 6:51 pm

Doesn't mention headspacing, however if you remove the breechblock you should be able to offer an unfired case up to the chamber and see if it sits flush.
If the breechblocks pivot or pivot pin are worn that may introduce excessive clearance.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Mar 2018, 7:05 pm

It's days like this I feel like a dope.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by marksman » 12 Mar 2018, 7:30 pm

I have seen this problem quite a few times and it isn't a problem with the firearm it is with the case being made small to fit all chambers
so when you fire thin brass eg: win when it forms to the chamber it will stretch and separate
the ppu brass is very good for not having this problem because of thickness
neck sizing is the go or be careful not to over fls or you create the problem again
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by N.Field » 12 Mar 2018, 7:30 pm

Oldbloke wrote:It's days like this I feel like a dope.


Oldbloke wrote:To carry out a rough head space check.
Cut a small piece of coke can the same size as the case head. If it's placed between the bolt and the cartridge the bolt should not close. If it closes you have a problem.

Let me emphasis it's a rough test.


I carried out a rough test on my own along similar lines.
1. Chambered an unfired (pulled) round.
2. Inserted feeler gauges between case head and breech block face.
3. Got three in, a tight fit. They're as old as me (60+) and the measurement marks are long gone.
4. Measured the three together with caliper to 0.019" of head clearance.
5. Head clearance 0.019 + rim thickness 0.061 = headspace 0.080, assuming accurate measuring and method (?).

Image

Graphic copied from this discussion on .303 headspace: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paralla ... t3361.html
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by N.Field » 12 Mar 2018, 7:53 pm

marksman wrote:I have seen this problem quite a few times and it isn't a problem with the firearm it is with the case being made small to fit all chambers
so when you fire thin brass eg: win when it forms to the chamber it will stretch and separate
the ppu brass is very good for not having this problem because of thickness
neck sizing is the go or be careful not to over fls or you create the problem again


I thinks that that's it. I will try to locate some PPU brass or ammo and work from there.

There are some interesting discussions on .303 headspace and the 'O' Ring Trick at these links:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paralla ... t3361.html

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=56078&page=1

http://www.enfield-rifles.com/303-reloa ... page1.html
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Mar 2018, 8:13 pm

Feeler gauges. Lol. I'm now glad I kept them all these years. All makes sense.

Looks like your within spec.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by RoginaJack » 12 Mar 2018, 9:03 pm

As mentioned above by OldBloke, rimmed cartridges headspace on the rim (except in auto weapons, I think) and the overall length of the 303 should be 2.222(-.020).

Your fired cases are 2.240 - 2.243. When fired cases will expand to fit chamber (fired formed cases) but the increase in length is a concern. May be barrel poorly fitted.,

Also in the photo of the fired cases, it appears that the shoulder has moved forward, neck angle is different and sharper and neck length appears shorter and less tapper overall.

I go with Bentaz that the barrel is reamed to a 303 Ackley or epps but the fired cases should not separate or primers pop etc and I don't like that shinny ring near the base.
My suggestion is go see a gunsmith.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Mar 2018, 9:51 am

Yeah, looks like head space is OK but something else is going on inside the chamber. In any case, cases and primers failing is a sign you need stop what you are doing and let a smith take a look at it.

Could end up a sad story if you keep using it like it is.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by N.Field » 13 Mar 2018, 11:54 am

Oldbloke wrote: . . . let a smith take a look at it.


RoginaJack wrote:My suggestion is go see a gunsmith.


I don't disagree but finding one who has a thorough understanding of Service .303 chambers and Martini actions is likely to be a challenge.

That said, I'll try my local bloke and go from there.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Mar 2018, 1:48 pm

"finding one who has a thorough understanding of Service .303 chambers and Martini actions is likely to be a challenge."

Good point. But still think you should. Perhaps start another thread?
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by RoginaJack » 13 Mar 2018, 4:02 pm

yep, great idea, start with the local bloke and go from there. Will be very interesting to find out what's the problem. Keep us posted....

Cheers.
PS. Don't put anymore rounds through it..
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by N.Field » 13 Mar 2018, 4:49 pm

No, there won't be any more shooting with it until I get it sorted out.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Gaz52 » 18 Apr 2018, 11:39 pm

Anneal your brass and fireform them . Dont full lenth resize ,a Lee collet die works for me with my Martini Enfield . I have got 6+ reloads with crappy Rem brass and trailboss loads , PPU brass is the best i have found for .303 and my k hornet.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Diesel » 01 May 2018, 12:22 pm

Gaz52 wrote:Anneal your brass and fireform them . Dont full lenth resize ,a Lee collet die works for me with my Martini Enfield . I have got 6+ reloads with crappy Rem brass and trailboss loads , PPU brass is the best i have found for .303 and my k hornet.


Gaz is on track, I have a few .303 martinis and they all have sloppy chambers(for easy extraction under adverse conditions). The military never intended to reload the brass and it was thick to avoid separations. Also remember that the original load for these was only doing 1850fps which is very mild on cases.

The primer piercing is a bit of a worry but many winchester primers seem to do that at the moment, the firing pin needs to be checked for protrusion and a proper fit in the breech block, some were sleeved for .303 use, some were new and if someone has substituted an original .450/577 block without sleeving then pierced primers and junk through the action are an immediate result. Sometimes the pin has sharp bits on it from wear and these can be smoothed.

Once you fire a round it is fireformed to the chamber and should only be necksized from then on and it will be a perfect fit.

Get a smith to check pin protrusion, breechblock fit and condition. It is worth the money to know it is safe to fire. If he can't disasemble the rifle he doesn't know what he is looking at, many don't.

You CANNOT check headspace on a martini with feeler guages, it is a dangerous practice.

There are people on this thread that have no idea and shouldn't be posting. It is simple, if you don't have personal experience don't comment.

Martinis don't vent well despite being a very strong action, wear safety glasses.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Member-Deleted » 02 May 2018, 11:21 am

It's an ongoing issue with a lot of firearms made to fire military spec ammo. With the extreme variation found in specs, especially with the 303 British, case manufacturers opt for a slightly undersized case so one size should fit all. As mentioned by others posters, thicker brass works better (I prefer Hornady or Norma; expensive, but worth it in the long run). Depending on how much money and time you want to spend, you can cast the chamber, or get a competent gunsmith to do it, so you have a much better idea of what you're dealing with. Also you could get the barrel removed, re-chambered with a modern reamer, and that should tighten things up considerably. It will also solve any headspace issues at the same time. 303's shoot better with a slightly tight head space as well. Another option is have it re-chambered to 303 Epps........now that would be a definite improvement.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by snag » 02 May 2018, 8:46 pm

Looking at the photos of before and after firing, I think it's a bit of a stretch to put that down to sloppy chamber or head spacing. Those shoulders have moved significantly forward and really looks like some kind of improvement. Over the generations, everyone has had a go at adapting Martinis and not always to accepted wildcats. I'd seriously be casting the chamber and talking to a gunsmith. As an example, I picked up a Martini Cadet that was supposed to be a 25-20 - and shoots those rounds just fine - but the fired brass comes out as .255 Dean. Just goes to show that old guns are not always what it says on the label.
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